Salvation

[Albion]

Of course.

 

[TurtleHare]

Indeed!

To say that a man's own doings have nothing to do with Salvation is patently false...
Man does just fine of his own doings in sins, and no-one denies this...
And IF man DOES his own sins, he has the POWER to DO his own sins...
And IF man has this power to DO sin, then he also has the power to NOT DO sin...
The power to self direct is a part of man created in the Image of God...
Directing one's self away from sin is repentance...
Anyone who is willing can DO self-denial...
That is why the Gospel records Christ's Holy Words:
IF anyone will come after Me, let him FIRST deny himself...
Self denial by the self denying itself is the first step of discipleship...
The Gospel does not say "IF the ELECT..."
It says "IF ANYONE..."

But there is a broader matter here...
Theology is not a systematic structuring of ideas...
The Faith Christ has given man is a Mystery...
It is entered through Discipleship...
And Discipleship is BY Christ THROUGH His Body, the Ekklesia...
Indeed the Bible was written BY those Holy Ones so discipled...
God wrote His Holy Bible using well discipled and Holy Hands...
Its understanding is for those so discipled...
For those not so discipled, it will be misunderstood...
For those so discipled, it can be misunderstood...

Arsenios

How you doing with that no sinning thing eh? Making good enough progress to get into heaven then cuz all fall short of the glory of God so it's doubtful you're doing as well as you've believed yourself to be.

 

[MennoSota]

Aaaaaahhhhhhhhh!

THAT was the trigger...

Thank-you Lammchen!

My first 36 years were atheist, you see...

I was never a believing Protestant of any denom, even though baptized Presbyterian...

Am I safe to say "Spawn of Satan" is a Protestant term?

Most of my friends in the Church are recovering Protestants/Evangellicals...

But my Priest is a recovering atheist Jew...

Recovering atheists are hard to find...

Arsenios

Are you okay with the word cr@p? Or is that Lämmchen who finds it offensive?
Are you a fan of "Invasion of the Body Snatchers?"

 

[Lamb]

Are you okay with the word cr@p? Or is that Lämmchen who finds it offensive?
Are you a fan of "Invasion of the Body Snatchers?"

I don't find it offensive but those outside of the United States consider it to be a bad word.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I don't find it offensive but those outside of the United States consider it to be a bad word.

IN Australia is not not a "bad word" just a slightly rough uncultured word but that doesn't stop people using it.Yet this is a thread about salvation and dipping into pop songs from 1965 and mocking the faith of more than a thousand million people is probably not a good place to go. So let's return to the thread's topic and no longer entertain foolish objections raised against the brethren.

 

[Josiah]

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Terms like "salvation" "conversion" "justification" "sanctification" "glorification" etc. CAN be used variously - in the Bible, in Tradition and in theological treatises. That's why it is good to note HOW you mean it.


Protestants tend to be careful on this point, but when speaking with non-Protestants, there is an opportunity for misunderstanding (thus Protestants tend to be ESPECIALLY careful when speaking to them). Protestants are APT to use the words "salvation" and "justification" and (less often) "conversion" to refer to the change in status, the divine granting of Life and Faith, the application of the works of Christ, the coming into the covenant of mercy. They are APT to use terms like "sanctification" and "discipleship" and "Christian life" to refer to ALL that follows and results from that, what the LIVING of this Gift of Life is to be. For Protestants, it is important that we affirm what we call "The Chief Article of Faith" or "Chief Doctrine" - that Jesus is the Savior. JESUS - no other, including the one we see in the mirror. IS (actually, fully, effectively) THE (exclusively, solely and all-sufficiently) SAVIOR (not helper, not offerer, not possibility-maker, not Gate Opener). AND to protect and affirm the need for our life to reflect Christ's life - not so that we may gain life but because we have this life, loving because we are FIRST loved, giving from what we FIRST were given. Protestants think these things are very important.


In much of popular Catholicism, it's all VERY messy, all this is mixed up and blended and entangled. It's GOOD and RIGHT that Catholics see these things as inseparable but wrong that they see these things as identical. It's GOOD and RIGHT to see them both as associated with each other, wrong that they hold that the our living enabling our coming to life rather than our life enabling our living. To use an example: It's TRUE that the living are to breathe (and do so), it's wrong to insist that it is our breathing that causes our conception. Association does not mandate causation. Popular Catholicism is RIGHT to hold these together but wrong to confuse and blend and mix them up - applying TRUTHS about one to the other (where they may be wrong).



There's nothing new here. In Luther's time, all this was pretty much undefined (officially) in Catholicism. But the Scriptures, the Fathers, the Creeds and the Councils were clear. Luther heard the preaching of those selling Indulgences and too often (largely ignorant) priests in parishes teaching a horrible misunderstanding, a synergistic/Pelagian MESS that was creating terror in the hearts of Catholics which the RCC was abusing (to get money out of them). Luther was EXTREMELY careful, "uber" careful- to be sure everyone understood he was speaking to justification - the GIVING, not Sanctification - the LIVING. He (and Lutheran "Fathers" after him) were SO careful that it is impossible for any to misunderstand. As a Doctor of the Church, he felt he was simply pointing out an error which the Pope would be grateful for, simply calling the Catholic Church to teach Catholicism and the Gospel, certain he was simply REFORMING an obvious error. Of course, we all know what happened as a result. At the Council of Trent, a bit after Luther's death, the RCC would finally pin this all down - but only to "justify" it's earlier condemnation of the Lutheran teaching, to justify how it called all this "heresy" and "anathema."


As for MoreCoffee's obsession over "what's ENOUGH?" Protestants tend to stress that Jesus is "enough" for the salvation He earned and gives. His Incarnation - Cross - Empty Tomb is "enough" . To argue that Jesus' work is NOT enough is to do the very thing Protestants so fundamentally, so passionately reject - that Jesus is NOT the Savior, that He goofed, and now we gotta help Him and get Him out of trouble by fixing what He goofed up, supplying what He forgot. Yes, Jesus is "enough" as SAVIOR. Yes, "Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide" as the gift of God IS ENOUGH for justification (narrow). Just as one can say that my conception around March 23, 1987 - that GIFT of GOD - is enough for my having life. Yes, Protestants look to the Incarnation, the Cross, the Empty Tomb and say it IS enough, Jesus didn't lie when He said "it is FINISHED." It is NOT a lie that Jesus IS the Savior, the Holy Spirit IS the GIVER of Life. THIS, we argue, is done, is finished, in this Jesus is enough. But "this" is not "all."


Is this the END of everything as some Catholics like to accuse Protestants of saying? NO! . Absolutely not. And NO Protestant on the Planet in all history known to me has said that. Protestants tend to stress (more so than Catholicism, in my experience) that God calls CHRISTIANS (ones WITH life/faith/Holy Spirit/Justification) to great things - including to love all as much as God does, to be as morally perfect as God is, to serve others as much as God does, to forgive others as God FIRST forgave us, to GIVE to others as God FIRST gave to us, to minister and serve as God FIRST ministered and served us. BECAUSE we have been given life/faith/Holy Spirit/Justification..... BECAUSE we first have received.... we are to LIVE, as Christ did. Example: Generally, being born in the USA is "enough" for that person to be an American citizen. But it's not the END of anything.... that American will need to pay taxes, serve on juries, maybe even die for the USA. But it's wrong to say that paying taxes is what makes one an American citizen. Yes, normally, those alive breathe (it might even be called a mandate!) but is self breathing the cause of the conception of self? Nope.



- Josiah


Yeah, I'm back






.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Terms like "salvation" "conversion" "justification" "sanctification" "glorification" etc. CAN be used variously - in the Bible, in Tradition and in theological treatises. That's why it is good to note HOW you mean it.
...

The definitions of words mentioned in your post has been gone over already in this thread and in the thread called Justification so going over it again is just repeating what is already in the thread. Let's stick with Salvation and discuss it while avoiding expanding the topic to cover every aspect of theology.

Salvation is defined, for the purposes of this thread, as

The forgiveness of sins and restoration of friendship with God, which can be done by God alone.​

It is appropriate to add that salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother: "We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation." Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith.

 

[Arsenios]

Of course.

Thank-you - It will not happen again...

And if it does, shoot me!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

How you doing with that no sinning thing eh?

That is not the standard - The standard is being willing to turn from sin, and when failing to do so, of confessing before men, atoning, making right if one can, and repenting... It is being willing to engage the STRUGGLE to turn from sin...

It is not even feeling bad about having sinned, or feeling bad about the person against whom one did sin... Beyond all this drama, it is about engaging the sin before man and God, and doing whatever it takes to overcome the doing of that sin - And THAT fight is a WAR... And we all take it on in varying degrees, and at different life stages differently... It is no cookie cutter... It is real and it is in the trenches... And it CAN be punitive...

And every morning we pray: "And grant us O Lord, to keep us this day without sin..."
And every evening we pray: "And grant us O Lord to keep us this evening with out sin..."

Making good enough progress to get into heaven then cuz all fall short of the glory of God so it's doubtful you're doing as well as you've believed yourself to be.

Forgive me but you sound a little smug and self-justified here...

But look - Heaven is the Kingdom of God where God is obeyed and demonic powers and principalities are contended against, here and now... And the Promised Land had to be entered before the Israelites then encountered the Giants opposing them, when David finally stepped forth indignantly and killed Goliath... So we are baptized INTO Christ, and we therein ARE in the Kingdom of Heaven, and we contend for the Faith of Christ in our own bodies, and in behalf of others... This is a living Faith, and the Way is Holy...

Arsenios

 

[carusos1974]

The definitions of words mentioned in your post has been gone over already in this thread and in the thread called Justification so going over it again is just repeating what is already in the thread. Let's stick with Salvation and discuss it while avoiding expanding the topic to cover every aspect of theology.

Salvation is defined, for the purposes of this thread, as

The forgiveness of sins and restoration of friendship with God, which can be done by God alone.​

It is appropriate to add that salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother: "We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation." Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith.

https://brideofchristtabernacle.com/sermons-1

Just some sermons from my home church in york pa


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Arsenios]

Are you okay with the word cr@p?

Depends...

Are ya feelin' LEEKEY???

Or is that Lämmchen who finds it offensive?

Most people not anally obsessed should find it at least mildly offensive...

Are you a fan of "Invasion of the Body Snatchers?"

Never watched it...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Yeah, I'm back

Glory to God!

Welcome back, Josiah!

You are a prayer's answer...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Salvation is defined, for the purposes of this thread, as

The forgiveness of sins and restoration of friendship with God,
which can be done by God alone.​

I still prefer Salvation as entry into Eternal Life:

John 17:3
And this is Life Eternal:
That they might know Thee
The Only True God,
And Jesus Christ,
Whom Thou hast sent.

But heck, it IS YOUR thread...

Mind you...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

.
Terms like "salvation" "conversion" "justification" "sanctification" "glorification" etc. CAN be used variously -
in the Bible, in Tradition and in theological treatises.
That's why it is good to note HOW you mean it.

I think you are defining Justification as a certain quality of event
that occurs in the lives of those experiencing it...

Is that true, Josiah?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Josiah, would it be more accurrate to say that your understanding of Justification is that it is an event of a certain Spiritual quality?

Because what I find commonly among the better Protestant Faithful with whom I am acquainted is that something happened at some particular time in their lives such that from that time forward, their lives made a "right" turn [justification], and have been progressively turning around [Sanctification] ever since... And it is this event that they regard as the pivotal event of their lives, in which God saved them...

Do I have it yet?


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Josiah, would it be more accurrate to say that your understanding of Justification is that it is an event of a certain Spiritual quality?

Because what I find commonly among the better Protestant Faithful with whom I am acquainted is that something happened at some particular time in their lives such that from that time forward, their lives made a "right" turn [justification], and have been progressively turning around [Sanctification] ever since... And it is this event that they regard as the pivotal event of their lives, in which God saved them...

Do I have it yet?


Arsenios

God's election was secure before the foundation of the world, Arsenios. This means that those whom God chose, God also justified and sanctified.

 

[Josiah]

Josiah, would it be more accurrate to say that your understanding of Justification is that it is an event of a certain Spiritual quality?

Because what I find commonly among the better Protestant Faithful with whom I am acquainted is that something happened at some particular time in their lives such that from that time forward, their lives made a "right" turn [justification], and have been progressively turning around [Sanctification] ever since... And it is this event that they regard as the pivotal event of their lives, in which God saved them...

Do I have it yet?


Arsenios

I think of Justification (narrow) as a birth, a change in status. My sister-in-law was adopted, that act (which happened when she was far too young to remember it and which did not involve her will or actions) CHANGED her status, her family, her parents, her name - her future. A different Mom and Dad.... and a different life. In much the same way, I understand Justification has a change from death to life, from pagan to believer. At Justification, one has spiritual life, grace, mercy, forgiveness, the Holy Spirit, faith - one is now a child of God, a member of God's family, in His mercy....

But like physical birth (which also is entirely monergistic and in no sense synergistic) spiritual birth is a beginning of a process. The "event" itself is monergistic (Lutherans agree with the ancient creed that the Holy Spirit IS THE Lord and Giver of life - not self, not in whole or in part; not now and not ever) but what extends from that is a "growing up" (Sanctification in the narrow sense) as we - BECAUSE WE ARE JUSTIFIED - are called to be more like our Savior, more "Christ like," to love as we have first been loved, etc. THAT is synergistic, life-long, and never completed so that (agreeing with St. Paul) we are always "chief of sinners" and always need enormous humility and constant repentance and continuous gratitude for His mercy and love - always pressing on toward the goal of holiness: the result is that the Justified are both saints and sinners - saints because we live in His mercy/forgiveness/grace/salvation (Justified), sinners because we continue to "miss the mark" (sin).

This is, of course, the very heart of the Catholic/Protestant "split" - the very issue that the RCC split itself over, so powerfully rejecting the above as apostate heresy.


I hope that helps.


- Josiah




.

 

[Arsenios]

I think of Justification (narrow) as a birth, a change in status. My sister-in-law was adopted, that act (which happened when she was far too young to remember it and which did not involve her will or actions) CHANGED her status, her family, her parents, her name - her future. A different Mom and Dad.... and a different life. In much the same way, I understand Justification has a change from death to life, from pagan to believer. At Justification, one has spiritual life, grace, mercy, forgiveness, the Holy Spirit, faith - one is now a child of God, a member of God's family, in His mercy....

But like physical birth (which also is entirely monergistic and in no sense synergistic) spiritual birth is a beginning of a process. The "event" itself is monergistic (Lutherans agree with the ancient creed that the Holy Spirit IS THE Lord and Giver of life - not self, not in whole or in part; not now and not ever) but what extends from that is a "growing up" (Sanctification in the narrow sense) as we - BECAUSE WE ARE JUSTIFIED - are called to be more like our Savior, more "Christ like," to love as we have first been loved, etc. THAT is synergistic, life-long, and never completed so that (agreeing with St. Paul) we are always "chief of sinners" and always need enormous humility and constant repentance and continuous gratitude for His mercy and love - always pressing on toward the goal of holiness: the result is that the Justified are both saints and sinners - saints because we live in His mercy/forgiveness/grace/salvation (Justified), sinners because we continue to "miss the mark" (sin).

This is, of course, the very heart of the Catholic/Protestant "split" - the very issue that the RCC split itself over, so powerfully rejecting the above as apostate heresy.


I hope that helps.


- Josiah




.

Thank-you - I had asked if Justification is an event of a particular Spiritual quality, and if I understand you aright, you are saying that it is like physical birth, an event of which we have no memory, monergistic... You did not mention its possible relationship with conception...

Is that correct?

Paul in Scripture tells us that being Justified by God follows being Called by God and precedes being Glorified by God.

Would you please explain your understanding of Justification by God as an even like our unremembered birth from the womb?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

There is something that needs to be said on this topic with which no one seems willing to engage...
And that something is life and death...
It began in the Garden:

Gen 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,
thou shalt not eat of it:
for in the day that thou eatest thereof
thou shalt surely die.

Adam and Eve did eat of that tree,
and in the day in which they did so eat,
in that day they died...

So that our Salvation is ALL about God's restoration of Life to Adam...
And beyond that restoration and indeed its means...
It is about God giving His Life to fallen and sinful man...

That Life in Christ in this fallen life is given in an earnest...
It is not given in its full measure...
But it IS given, given by God...

And we are entered into this Life,
Indeed we are entered into Christ,
By being Baptized into Christ...
And by putting on Christ therein...

For as many of you...
as have been Baptized into Christ...
Have put on Christ... [Gal 3:27]

Outside of Christ, we have no Life in us...
Outside of Christ, we have Old Testament Salvation...
We may be saturated in the Holy Spirit...
We may raise the dead...
We may call down the Holy Fire...
We may close the heavens...
And in these attainments of great faith, we do NOT have Salvation...
We SHALL be saved at the last Judgement...
We ARE NOT saved here and now...
And most of those who ARE saved here and now...
Are UNABLE to do the things of the Old Testament Saints...

And the difference is the "Mystery of the Faith, which is Christ IN you..."
In these latter times this means a conjoining with God in Baptism...
Baptism is the poing of ENTRY INTO Christ for those who are Christians...
It is the REBIRTH of man into God the Word...
Wherein we are become a NEW CREATION in Him...
We become MEMBERS of His Holy Body, the Ekklesia...
BECAUSE we have been CONJOINED hypostatically with God...

This is UNPRECEDENTED in the entire history of Creation...

It is marvellous in our eyes...

The Book of the Acts of the Apostles is an early history of what this looks like...

It continues to be written in deeds...

Arsenios

 

[Albion]

Its really about physical death being the consequence of Adams sin, even though your message is uplifting.






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