Salvation

[MennoSota]

Maybe it isn't a matter of "being needed" for the priests just a matter of God wanting them do administer baptism in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit because it is not baptism without that name and God commanded it to be done in that name by people; specifically by disciples making disciples.

Sure we obey. It's still symbolic.

 

[Albion]

Here's a question. For anyone who is otherwise a Christian but thinks that Baptism is only symbol...is a baptismal ceremony that he experiences invalid?

 

[MennoSota]

Here's a question. For anyone who is otherwise a Christian but thinks that Baptism is only symbol...is a baptismal ceremony that he experiences invalid?

What do you mean by "experience"?
God is pleased when we publicly acknowledge what the Spirit has done by immersing us into Christ. God commands us to go, make disciples, teach and baptize. It's an act of obedience. It is not a means of obtaining grace.

 

[Arsenios]

God the Spirit baptized Paul into Christ.

So then must we conclude that Scripture is wrong?
When it states that Christ is the One doing the Baptizing?

You say it is God the Spirit Who does the Baptizing into Christ...

Scripture says it is God the Son Who does so...

Do you have some reason I should believe you and not Scripture?

John 1:33
And I knew Him not:
but He that sent me to baptize with water,
that One said unto me,
Upon Whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending,
and abiding on Him,
that One is
He Who is Baptizing in the Holy Spirit

You can see it is NOT the Holy Spirit Who is Baptizing, but Christ...

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

So then must we conclude that Scripture is wrong?
When it states that Christ is the One doing the Baptizing?

You say it is God the Spirit Who does the Baptizing into Christ...

Scripture says it is God the Son Who does so...

Do you have some reason I should believe you and not Scripture?

John 1:33
And I knew Him not:
but He that sent me to baptize with water,
that One said unto me,
Upon Whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending,
and abiding on Him,
that One is
He Who is Baptizing in the Holy Spirit

You can see it is NOT the Holy Spirit Who is Baptizing, but Christ...

Arsenios

Do you notice...no water necessary.
The Spirit is given to the elect by Jesus. The Spirit immerses us into Christ.
No water, Arsenios.
We use water to symbolize the work that the Holy Spirit does when Jesus adopts us.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Do you notice...no water necessary.
The Spirit is given to the elect by Jesus. The Spirit immerses us into Christ.
No water, Arsenios.
We use water to symbolize the work that the Holy Spirit does when Jesus adopts us.

For somebody who seems to be a Baptist your posts sure are disrespectful of baptism. The way you write a chap might think you advocated no sacraments of any kind and definitely no water for baptism.

 

[MennoSota]

For somebody who seems to be a Baptist your posts sure are disrespectful of baptism. The way you write a chap might think you advocated no sacraments of any kind and definitely no water for baptism.

I write so that the foolish teaching of water spinkling as a means of grace might be rejected.
Water immersion as a means of symbolizing the gracious immersion of the adopted child into Christ is consistently presented in scripture.
You and Arsenios desperately want a mystical experience whereby you determine your own salvation rather than God having total sovereign control over your salvation. In short, you cannot let God have complete control.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I write so that the foolish teaching of water spinkling as a means of grace might be rejected.
Water immersion as a means of symbolizing the gracious immersion of the adopted child into Christ is consistently presented in scripture.
You and Arsenios desperately want a mystical experience whereby you determine your own salvation rather than God having total sovereign control over your salvation. In short, you cannot let God have complete control.

Oh, that's interesting. So you're not aiming to denigrate Catholic baptism practises - Catholics do not sprinkle.

 

[MennoSota]

Oh, that's interesting. So you're not aiming to denigrate Catholic baptism practises - Catholics do not sprinkle.

You miss the point...

 

[Albion]

There's just about no way to make this (below) mean something other than what it says, M.

"I write so that the foolish teaching of water spinkling as a means of grace might be rejected. "

 

[MoreCoffee]

You miss the point...

Oh. What is the point?

 

[psalms 91]

I dont beleive in sprinkling either but I also dont think it is a salvation issue and I dont see a problem with it if someone wants to do it. God looks at the heart of the person so if they believe they are doing it for salvation then I believe God will honor that as long as they are sincere in their belief.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I dont beleive in sprinkling either but I also dont think it is a salvation issue and I dont see a problem with it if someone wants to do it. God looks at the heart of the person so if they believe they are doing it for salvation then I believe God will honor that as long as they are sincere in their belief.

I don't hold with sprinkling either. Maybe it's Presbyterians or something that do?

 

[Josiah]

I think this thread is about salvation, not Baptism. There are threads up about baptism (including the point if it is a means of grace) or one can start another thread on that.


Back to the subject....




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[MoreCoffee]

I think this thread is about salvation, not Baptism. There are threads up about baptism (including the point if it is a means of grace) or one can start another thread on that.
Back to the subject....

Baptism is about salvation.

 

[MennoSota]

Oh. What is the point?

It's telling that you are clueless.

 

[Josiah]

Answer this: WHO is the Savior?

It's an important question (THE most important question) and Christianity stands or falls on the answer...


IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly wrapped up in Jesus. It's entirely HIS work. It's entirely HIS accomplishment. It's entirely HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness. Not you. Not yours. You may have some other role in some other matter, but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you. Salvation is found in no other name but Jesus (exclusively).

IF you answer "Me" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOU save you. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you. Salvation is found in the one each sees in the mirror.

IF you answer, "No one, there is no Savior" then there is no salvation


Which is it? Try answering that. The devil will TRY to make this as complex and difficult and messy as he can..... he'll promote options 2 and 3 as much as he can... but actually, it's not rocket science.

If you give the Christian answer, a LOT of Christianity falls into place. IF you realize that Jesus SAVES us - FOR good works/love (not just heaven), then Justification and Sanctification take their proper role and are not confused in the way the devil so passionately desires.



Thank you!


- Josiah




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Many TRY with all their brains to make this ever-so-complicated.... they may go to incredible lengths to TRY to answer with "no" or "no one" without SEEMING that's their answer. But it's not hard.

I lament those who identify themselves as "Christians" but are horrified by the "Jesus" answer, going on and on to undermine it, perhaps (at best) saying 'Yeah - BUT....." (with the "but" essentially negating the "yeah"). There should be NO belief more clear, more direct, more simple than this one.





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[MoreCoffee]

Many TRY with all their brains to make this ever-so-complicated.... they may go to incredible lengths to TRY to answer with "no" or "no one" without SEEMING that's their answer. But it's not hard. I lament those who identify themselves as "Christians" but are horrified by the "Jesus" answer, going on and on to undermine it, perhaps (at best) saying 'Yeah - BUT....." (with the "but" essentially negating the "yeah"). There should be NO belief more clear, more direct, more simple than this one..

You have a penchant for self quotations.
Jesus is Lord and Jesus is saviour.
:bishop1:

 

[Arsenios]

IF
You realize that Jesus SAVES us - FOR good works/love (not just heaven),
THEN
Justification and Sanctification take their proper role

So Josiah, are you ever going to address the matter of God Justifying those He has Called and then Glorifying them?

I have asked that question of you about 5-6 times now, and you never reply...

If you just do not want to deal with it, I will stop asking...

I have never seen you engage that text...

Arsenios

 

[Josiah]

So Josiah, are you ever going to address the matter of God Justifying those He has Called?

I have. MANY times. HE does it. See almost every one of the hundreds of posts I have on the topic, lastly # 437 in this thread.


I'll repeat for you:

Answer this: WHO is the Savior?

It's an important question (THE most important question) and Christianity stands or falls on the answer...


IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly wrapped up in Jesus. It's entirely HIS work. It's entirely HIS accomplishment. It's entirely HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness. Not you. Not yours. You may have some other role in some other matter, but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you. Salvation is found in no other name but Jesus (exclusively).

IF you answer "Me" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOU save you. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you. Salvation is found in the one each sees in the mirror.

IF you answer, "No one, there is no Savior" then there is no salvation


Which is it? Try answering that. The devil will TRY to make this as complex and difficult and messy as he can..... he'll promote options 2 and 3 as much as he can... but actually, it's not rocket science.

If you give the Christian answer, a LOT of Christianity falls into place. IF you realize that Jesus SAVES us - FOR good works/love (not just heaven), then Justification and Sanctification take their proper role and are not confused in the way the devil so passionately desires.



Many TRY with all their brains to make this ever-so-complicated.... they may go to incredible lengths to TRY to answer with "no" or "no one" without SEEMING that's their answer. But it's not hard.

I lament those who identify themselves as "Christians" but are horrified by the "Jesus" answer, going on and on to undermine it, perhaps (at best) saying 'Yeah - BUT....." (with the "but" essentially negating the "yeah"). There should be NO belief more clear, more direct, more simple than this one.


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