Salvation

[Lamb]

2 Timothy 1:9 "He has saved us..."

We reap the benefits of salvation at our deaths or if Jesus again before we die for Judgment Day ...but 2 Timothy states that He has saved us. Not He will save us

 

[Arsenios]

.

Good point!



A.

 

[Arsenios]

2 Timothy 1:9 "He has saved us..."

We reap the benefits of salvation at our deaths or if Jesus again before we die for Judgment Day ...but 2 Timothy states that He has saved us. Not He will save us

The Judgement will come, and God will Judge the Living and the dead...

For as many of you as have been Baptized into Christ, have put on Christ...

If you do not eat My Flesh and drink My Blood you have NO LIFE in you...

So that having been Baptized INTO Christ...
And PARTAKING of the Divine Nature...
And living by dieing daily to the world...
We ARE saved... [now]
And we shall be saved... [Last Judgement]
And we have been saved... [Baptism]

Salvation is union with Christ...
It begins with repentance unto Baptism...
Then Baptism into Christ...
Then running the race set before us...
Overcoming demonic adversaries...
Slowly by enhanced repentance...
Putting self to death daily...
Our greatest adversaries are fought...
AFTER we enter into the Kingdom of God...

Goliath was overcome
by a humble and indignant shepherd boy
IN the Promised Land...

Those who encounter their Goliath outside Baptism into Christ...
Normally do not survive...
They commonly become monsters...
Or are killed or imprisoned...

There have always been exceptions...

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

2 Timothy 1:9 "He has saved us..."

We reap the benefits ...

We reap the benefits at Judgement day. Simple, eh?

 

[TurtleHare]

For it by grace you have been saved. Simple, huh?

 

[MoreCoffee]

For it by grace you have been saved. Simple, huh?

You'd think so but we are at post #406 and people still do not agree that Christians are saved by grace through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God -- not because of works, lest any man should boast --for we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

 

[Albion]

Are we to take that post to mean that you are reconsidering 'works righteousness', then?

 

[Arsenios]

Are we to take that post to mean that you are reconsidering 'works righteousness', then?

It is God Who Calls...
It is God Who makes Righteous...
It is God Who Glorifies...

The only question is, "On what basis does God do these 3 things?"

Now we all agree that God is NOT in question here...

But you and I and MC sure are...

And what a man does matters...

ALL are NOT Called, but MANY are...

Yet FEW are CHOSEN...

And none of these are capricious on God's part...
Because God has foreknowledge...
God knows the heart of man...
And we are not God...

THEREFORE...

Arguing about God's foreknowledge is wrong...
We are Called to Repentance...
We begin repenting and are Baptized into Christ
(Something the Jews were not...)
Baptism IS quintessential Justification...
Baptisam IS the completion of our repentance from our sinning...
THEN come the "running of the race"...
The KEEPING of the purity of heart GIVEN to us in Baptism...
And the struggle to KEEP that purity of heart is WAY harder than our initial repentance unto Baptism...
So IF we should fall, we confess our sin and re-enter into repentance from it...
This is the hard and narrow and obstructed Way of Christians...
I call it "enhanced repentance"...
A child murderer can repent unto Baptism and find forgiveness...
A Saint of God cannot have so much as a bad thought without huge loss...
The Baptized child murderer is Justified, you see...
The Saint of God is Glorified...
He has been tested hard in the "running of the race"...
He has been tried by the fire of temptations...
Temptations which the child-killer who has stopped his killing cannot imagine...
The Baptism by Fire is the overcoming of evil poweers and principalities...
Paul was murdering Christ's Holy Saints...
And received God's Call, and became one...
We cannot claim God's foreknowledge...

So the BASIS of God's Actions is not capricious on God's part, but is His Foreknowledge...
And the ONLY basis that WE have is our committment to God...
Which struggles in repentance to attain purity in Baptism...
And struggles in vigilance to maintain that purity in trials...
And then struggles in Service to give to others what one has attained in Gods Glorification...

Life is a struggle for purity of heart...
Rest is rejoicing in that struggle...

For you who are philosophers, opposites do unite...
Rest IS struggle...
Death IS Life...
For we are fallen AND standing...

Arsenios
Former student of philosophy...

 

[Albion]

Fine, but that doesn't really address the issue I commented on or that TurtleHare or MC referred to.

 

[Arsenios]

Fine, but that doesn't really address the issue I commented on or that TurtleHare or MC referred to.

For by (this) Grace you have been Saved through (this) Faith...

Grace is God...

Grace is not something God creates...

Grace is God Himself...

I believe that both Catholics and Protestants understand Saving Grace as something God makes and gives to man...

Yet Eternal Life is the intimate knowing of God by man, the Marriage of the Lamb...

More intimate by far than man and wife, the term by which the ancients gave it attribution as the most descriptive term they had available to use... Infinitely more, for we are become and are becoming "Partakers in the Divine Nature" as Peter writes... Great Gifts coming through Great Trials...

Please forgive me for wandering off...

I am doing that a lot these days...

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

Are we to take that post to mean that you are reconsidering 'works righteousness', then?

Clearly one's works are either righteous or they are not. That cannot be the subject of debate here, it must be something else. The holy scriptures are full of commendations for righteous works and also full of condemnations for wicked works so can anybody seriously dispute against righteous works as if they were bad?

 

[Arsenios]

Clearly one's works are either righteous or they are not.
That cannot be the subject of debate here, it must be something else.
The holy scriptures are full of commendations for righteous works
and also full of condemnations for wicked works
so can anybody seriously dispute against righteous works
as if they were bad?

It seems so...

On the premise that a humanly righteous work is not necessarily a work of God...

Which is why the Faith is kata holon, according to the whole, and is not a systemically derived belief system... Thomas' Suma to the contrary notwithstanding - They were study notes, after all... The faith must be approached in a kata holon manner by following Christ in self-denial and taking up one's cross in sufferings... It is the catholic Faith, and not the Systematic Bible Faith... Everything has its place in relationship to the whole... There is no conceptual "anchor point" from which the rest is "derived" or "proven"... Christ Crucified IS the Gospel, and the Sola's are but human mal-interpretations... There is no substitute for self-denial, and the taking up of one's own cross in following Christ... And this is what is discipled by the Apostolic Churches, whatever other errors they may commit in human weaknesses...

So IF someone believes doctrinairely that ONLY God's Works CAN be righteous, then there is no such thing as human virtue, and if there is human virtue, it has nothing to do with one's righteous relationship with God... And man's hands are tied so that nothing he might do or not do has anything to do with his salvation and/or justification...

Arsenios

 

[Albion]

Clearly one's works are either righteous or they are not. That cannot be the subject of debate here, it must be something else.

And it is.

The topic is salvation. Any consideration of works should be in connection to that topic, at least so far as this particular thread goes.

 

[Josiah]

So IF someone believes doctrinairely that ONLY God's Works CAN be righteous, then there is no such thing as human virtue, and if there is human virtue, it has nothing to do with one's righteous relationship with God... And man's hands are tied so that nothing he might do or not do has anything to do with his salvation and/or justification...

[MENTION=486]Arsenios[/MENTION]


IMO, you are confusing two DIFFERENT things, and in so doing, unintentionally jeoprodizing the Gospel and Christianity itself - making it just a slight variation of the other world "religions."

TRUE, the CHRISTIAN, the Justified (in the narrow sense) ARE to mature, grow, become more Christ-like but this is SANCTIFICATION (narrow) or Discipleship or CHRISTIAN living. it is the response to justification not the accomplishing of justification. If OUR works are salvic, then Christ died for no purpose, the Gospel has no meaning, Jesus is a bad joke, and we are still damned. TRUE - if you can be 100% perfect, holy, equal to God's own nature, ALWAYS "hitting the mark" in ALL of the will of God, then yes - there would be no sin, no sins, no fall, and no need for Jesus or the Gospel (or God for that matter) but that's not the case; the Bible says NO ONE is without sin, if we claim to have no sin we are lying.

TRUE, our lives can be BETTER, and relatively speaking (compared to other sinners) we can be better ("civil righteousness") but no one is perfect except God, no one 100% hits the mark in thought, word and deed from conception to death.




It all comes down to this, my brother: Answer this: WHO is the Savior?


IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly wrapped up in Jesus. It's entirely HIS work. It's entirely HIS accomplishment. It's entirely HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness. Not you. Not yours. You may have some other role in some other matter, but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you. Salvation is found in no other name but Jesus (exclusively).

IF you answer "Me" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOU save you. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you. Salvation is found in the one each sees in the mirror.

IF you answer, "No one, there is no Savior" then there is no salvation


Which is it? Try answering that. The devil will TRY to make this as complex and difficult and messy as he can..... he'll promote options 2 and 3 as much as he can... but actually, it's not rocket science.

If you give the Christian answer, a LOT of Christianity falls into place. IF you realize that Jesus SAVES us - FOR good works/love (not just heaven), then Justification and Sanctification take their proper role and are not confused in the way the devil so passionately desires.



Thank you!


- Josiah




.

 

[MennoSota]

The Judgement will come, and God will Judge the Living and the dead...

For as many of you as have been Baptized into Christ, have put on Christ...

If you do not eat My Flesh and drink My Blood you have NO LIFE in you...

So that having been Baptized INTO Christ...
And PARTAKING of the Divine Nature...
And living by dieing daily to the world...
We ARE saved... [now]
And we shall be saved... [Last Judgement]
And we have been saved... [Baptism]

Salvation is union with Christ...
It begins with repentance unto Baptism...
Then Baptism into Christ...
Then running the race set before us...
Overcoming demonic adversaries...
Slowly by enhanced repentance...
Putting self to death daily...
Our greatest adversaries are fought...
AFTER we enter into the Kingdom of God...

Goliath was overcome
by a humble and indignant shepherd boy
IN the Promised Land...

Those who encounter their Goliath outside Baptism into Christ...
Normally do not survive...
They commonly become monsters...
Or are killed or imprisoned...

There have always been exceptions...

Arsenios

Wow, you just slap down half phrases out of context everywhere in your post. It's just brutal butchering of God's word. It's like watching a junior high student try to dissect a frog. They just hack away, cutting through vital organs with no care.
I will only address this slice.
"For as many of you as have been Baptized into Christ, have put on Christ..."
When God adopts us and makes us alive "in Christ", He also baptizes us into Christ by the Holy Spirit. No water needed...

 

[Arsenios]

[MENTION=486]Arsenios[/MENTION]
IMO, you are confusing two DIFFERENT things, and in so doing, unintentionally jeoprodizing the Gospel and Christianity itself - making it just a slight variation of the other world "religions."

Duck quick! Those OTHER THREE fingers are pointed straight back at the accusor!

TRUE, the CHRISTIAN, the Justified (in the narrow sense) ARE to mature, grow, become more Christ-like but this is SANCTIFICATION (narrow) or Discipleship or CHRISTIAN living. it is the response to justification not the accomplishing of justification. If OUR works are salvic, then Christ died for no purpose, the Gospel has no meaning, Jesus is a bad joke, and we are still damned. TRUE - if you can be 100% perfect, holy, equal to God's own nature, ALWAYS "hitting the mark" in ALL of the will of God, then yes - there would be no sin, no sins, no fall, and no need for Jesus or the Gospel (or God for that matter) but that's not the case; the Bible says NO ONE is without sin, if we claim to have no sin we are lying.

This smacks of pre-digestion... A perfect reply to a point nobody made

TRUE, our lives can be BETTER, and relatively speaking (compared to other sinners) we can be better ("civil righteousness") but no one is perfect except God, no one 100% hits the mark in thought, word and deed from conception to death.

It all comes down to this, my brother: Answer this: WHO is the Savior?

Another perfect reply to a nonexistent point...

IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly wrapped up in Jesus. It's entirely HIS work. It's entirely HIS accomplishment. It's entirely HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness. Not you. Not yours. You may have some other role in some other matter, but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you. Salvation is found in no other name but Jesus (exclusively).

IF you answer "Me" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOU save you. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you. Salvation is found in the one each sees in the mirror.

IF you answer, "No one, there is no Savior" then there is no salvation


Which is it? Try answering that. The devil will TRY to make this as complex and difficult and messy as he can..... he'll promote options 2 and 3 as much as he can... but actually, it's not rocket science.

If you give the Christian answer, a LOT of Christianity falls into place. IF you realize that Jesus SAVES us - FOR good works/love (not just heaven), then Justification and Sanctification take their proper role and are not confused in the way the devil so passionately desires.

Another perfect reply to a nonexistent point...

There are limits to cut and paste argumentation...

Engaging an argument is a good thing...

Thank-you

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

"For as many of you as have been Baptized into Christ, have put on Christ..."

When God adopts us and makes us alive "in Christ",
He also baptizes us into Christ by the Holy Spirit.
No water needed...

Who did Christ command to do His Baptizing?
Did Ananias baptize Paul INTO Christ?

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

And it is.

The topic is salvation. Any consideration of works should be in connection to that topic, at least so far as this particular thread goes.

That's good to hear. I created this thread with the title Salvation because that is the topic I wanted to see discussed. As a Catholic Christian there can be no thought that works outside of Christ cause the salvation of anybody because if anybody's works apart from Christ were uniformly good and holy then what need would there be for such a person to be saved from condemnation on the last day when God judges the righteous and the wicked? The Lord Jesus Christ needed no salvation and his works were uniformly good and holy and Christians all agree that he needs no saviour to save him from condemnation on judgement day and it seems that the same may be true of any human being whose works were as righteous and holy and good as the Lord Jesus Christ's works. But as for us, here in Christianity Haven, do any claim that all of their works are uniformly good and holy? I cannot think of any who make that claim. The holy scriptures teach that Christians need a saviour and that works of obedience to the Law of Moses - as far as they are demanded by God in his just judgement - are taken care of by Christ, in his flesh and by the shedding of his blood - by which he removed the division that separated Gentiles from Israelites by means of the Law - Christ created one new Man in his own body with one Spirit and that one man is the one who is holy, just, and good thus all who remain in him are also holy, just, and good as long as they remain in him.

Ephesians 2:13 But now, in Christ Jesus, and by his blood, you, who were once far off, have come near. 14 For Christ is our peace; he, who has made the two people, one; 15 destroying, in his own flesh, the wall— the hatred—which separated us. He abolished the law, with its commands and precepts. He made peace, in uniting the two people, in him; creating, out of the two, one New Man. 16 He destroyed hatred and reconciled us both to God, through the cross, making the two, one body. 17 He came to proclaim peace; peace to you who were far off, peace to the Jews who were near. 18 Through him, we—the two people—approach the Father, in one Spirit.​

So works of righteousness do play an essential role in salvation as necessary for being made righteous in Christ and the works of righteousness that play that necessary role are Christ's works in which all the faithful take part by their union with him in his body. Their union in the body of Christ makes them into God's holy temple, a living temple in the Lord, in which holiness dwells.

Ephesians 2:19 Now, you are no longer strangers or guests, but fellow citizens of the holy people: you are of the household of God. You are the house, 20 whose foundations are the apostles and prophets, and whose cornerstone is Christ Jesus. 21 In him, the whole structure is joined together, and rises, to be a holy temple, in the Lord. 22 In him, you, too, are being built, to become the spiritual Sanctuary of God.​

 

[MennoSota]

Who did Christ command to do His Baptizing?
Did Ananias baptize Paul INTO Christ?

Arsenios

God the Spirit baptized Paul into Christ. The Spirit immerses us into Christ. Water baptism symbolizes in an outward sign what God the Spirit did at the time of adoption. In other words, your EC priests aren't needed.

 

[MoreCoffee]

God the Spirit baptized Paul into Christ. The Spirit immerses us into Christ. Water baptism symbolizes in an outward sign what God the Spirit did at the time of adoption. In other words, your EC priests aren't needed.

Maybe it isn't a matter of "being needed" for the priests just a matter of God wanting them do administer baptism in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit because it is not baptism without that name and God commanded it to be done in that name by people; specifically by disciples making disciples.