Salvation

[MennoSota]

I think the LOL part of that statement is correct.



First see if you can come up with a theory on why I would even want to do that.









.

Simple, you disagree with me.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Oh, for heavens sake!

ALL OF YOU:

To work out your own salvation simply means to strive towards the Christlike nature of the true believer that Paul speaks more about in the following chapter. It does not mean that he is urging anyone work to QUALIFY for salvation by working or performing works.

I am sure that something like that was in a post I wrote a while back. It's here http://christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?5424-Salvation&p=139118#post139118

 

[Lamb]

Here's the Google Translation. Is this what you used, MC?

I checked on Google Translate myself...what you posted is exactly what it spit back out in English using the text MC provided in his post. Google obviously does not know Greek so maybe it shouldn't be used as a reliable source?

 

[MoreCoffee]

I checked on Google Translate myself...what you posted is exactly what it spit back out in English using the text MC provided in his post. Google obviously does not know Greek so maybe it shouldn't be used as a reliable source?

MennoSota's suggestion about google translate is absurd. For one thing google translate is meant for modern Greek rather than Koine Greek and for another I used my own knowledge of koine Greek to do a "word for word" translation. I did study Koine Greek at The Westminster Institute of Biblical Studies the theological school of Westminster Presbyterian Church (an Australian denomination). I do not pass myself off as expert in the language but I know it to a reasonable degree of competence and there are dozens of interlinear translations in print with which the literal translation that I offered can be checked. Anyway, most of the people using CH can check these things for themselves if they want to, it is only a matter of going online and doing a search for "Greek Interlinear New Testament". Happy hunting.

Here's the post that I wrote that prompted MennoSota's comment about google.

Working out your salvation is not the same as working for your salvation.

Work our is not a work!

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"continue working out your salvation" The word "out" is not in the Greek but many translators appear to think that the English needs it to make the sentence comprehensible. The Greek says "with fear and trembling your own salvation work-down" make whatever sense you can out of that.

Here is the Greek: μετὰ[with] φόβου[fear] καὶ[and] τρόμου[trembling] τὴν[the] ἑαυτῶν[of selves] σωτηρίαν[salvation] κατεργάζεσθε[down working be you]

 

[Albion]

I am sure that something like that was in a post I wrote a while back. It's here http://christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?5424-Salvation&p=139118#post139118

It may be somewhere in the mass of "cuts and pastes" that you posted there, but I have read you arguing for a works righteousness interpretation of the verse on your own.

 

[MoreCoffee]

It may be somewhere in the mass of "cuts and pastes" that you posted there, but I have read you arguing for a works righteousness interpretation of the verse on your own.

Works play a role in Justification as saint James wrote: a man is justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24) I am happy to affirm James' statement as true. And men like Job and Enoch received God's testimony to their righteousness because of what they did, Abram too received this testimony when God affirmed him as righteous as saint James wrote: 20 You foolish one, do you have to be convinced, that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Think of our father Abraham. Was he not justified by the act of offering his son Isaac on the altar? 22 So you see, his faith was active, along with his deeds, and became perfect by what he did. 23 The word of Scripture was thus fulfilled, Abraham believed in God so he was considered a righteous person and he was called the friend of God. (James 2:20-23) and I am happy to affirm what James wrote about Abraham as true. But what you wrote about "works righteousness" I do not affirm as true. It is a fancy of no value whatever, of your making it seems.

 

[Albion]

... I am happy to affirm what James wrote about Abraham as true. But what you wrote about "works righteousness" I do not affirm as true.

Of course you do, and we have your statement here to that effect. You think (or just insist) that Abraham was saved by his deeds and that James was arguing for justification by both Faith and deeds. Neither of those is a correct reading of the Scriptures. You twice say that you are "happy" to affirm James, but it is not what James was explaining that you are affirming.

I might add that you either do not understand the meaning of the term (works righteousness)...or are determined to pull the wool over the eyes of the readers by defining it as something other than what it means--and then rejecting that, your own definition.




.

 

[Arsenios]

Oh, for heavens sake!

Yea, even for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven!

ALL OF YOU:

Yea, for anyone desiring to follow Christ!

To work out your own salvation simply means to strive towards the Christlike nature of the true believer that Paul speaks more about in the following chapter. It does not mean that he is urging anyone work to QUALIFY for salvation by working or performing works.

Mat 11:12
And from the days of John the Baptist until now
the Kingdom of Heaven is suffering violence,
and the violent are siezing it by force.

Christ's very Own Words...

So you are right, and by calling sinners to repentance, God is permitting the UN-qualified - And that means the likes of you and Menno, and even of me, the worst of all sinners - to SIEZE the Kingdom of heaven...

5-Pointers seldom engage this text...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I do NOT AFFIRM [it] as true...

Of course you do

I will say this in your defense, Albion - You NEVER put WORDS in ANYONE'S mouth!!

That was high humor...

A reply I would have been proud to have made...

And that you did so in apparent innocence makes it even more funny!

MontyPython-esque - "I paid for an argument!" "No you didn't!"

Simple contradiction is just the best!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

You think (or just insist) that Abraham was saved by his deeds and that James was arguing for justification by both Faith and deeds. Neither of those is a correct reading of the Scriptures. You twice say that you are "happy" to affirm James, but it is not what James was explaining that you are affirming.

I might add that you either do not understand the meaning of the term (works righteousness)...or are determined to pull the wool over the eyes of the readers by defining it as something other than what it means--and then rejecting that, your own definition.

May I respond just a little please?

IF there is no saving Faith apart from works of Faith...
THEN righteousness THROUGH the works of Faith is mandated...

AND...

This does NOT mean that we EARN righteousness...
But that God GIVES is according to our works of Faith...

BECAUSE

We all do agree, do we not, that
Faith without works is DEAD...

Hence no righteousness...
Without WORKS of Faith...

I really do not see how this conclusion can be avoided...

Arsenios

 

[Albion]

May I respond just a little please?

IF there is no saving Faith apart from works of Faith...
THEN righteousness THROUGH the works of Faith is mandated...

You are trying to find a way to make works EFFECTIVE in the process of justification and salvation, but works are rather a product of Faith--a necessary one, a good one, a God-pleasing one, etc. etc. etc. but it is not what is the effective ingredient. Faith alone is that ingredient.

This does NOT mean that we EARN righteousness...
But that God GIVES is according to our works of Faith...

But if it is not of ourselves then absolutely it cannot count for us towards the possibility of our salvation. Such works will be rewarded, we believe, but that is different from the matter of us being saved or not.

BECAUSE

We all do agree, do we not, that
Faith without works is DEAD...

Faith without works is not Faith, so everything we know about saving Faith is unaffected by this point. To say it is dead is to say it isn't functioning (and therefore could not save anyone the way a live Faith could).

Hence no righteousness...
Without WORKS of Faith...

There will be no righteousness without Faith; consequentially, there will not be any righteousness unless all that identifies a true Faith is present. Good works, for example.

 

[Arsenios]

Works are rather a product of Faith--
A necessary one
Faith alone is that ingredient.

Faith alone is dead...
Scripture clearly affirms so...

Faith without works is not Faith,

Scripture says such faith is DEAD...

To say it is dead is to say it isn't functioning

It is Faith without works that is NOT saving Faith...

Saving Faith and its works are not separable...

There will be no righteousness without Faith; consequentially, there will not be any righteousness unless all that identifies a true Faith is present. Good works, for example.

If you are right, then works are an integral ingredient of Saving Faith...
Separating Saving Faith from its Works is error...

What work did the Thief on the Cross do to be Saved by Christ?

Arsenios

ps - Is confessing a work?

 

[Albion]

Faith alone is dead...
Scripture clearly affirms so...

Faith that doesn't produce works is dead, not a real Faith. HOWEVER, with a live Faith, it isn't the works that save, not even in part. That is why it is said that Faith Alone saves.

The expression should not be misrepresented. It doesn't mean that Faith IS alone, but that ONLY FAITH saves. You seem to have spent a lot of energy arguing that Faith is not alone--which neither I nor anyone else around here has denied! In fact, I went to some lengths to dispel the notion that Faith IS alone.

.

 

[RichWh1]

I checked on Google Translate myself...what you posted is exactly what it spit back out in English using the text MC provided in his post. Google obviously does not know Greek so maybe it shouldn't be used as a reliable source?

Google knows Greek just not Koine Greek.


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[MoreCoffee]

I will say this in your defense, Albion - You NEVER put WORDS in ANYONE'S mouth!!

That was high humor...

A reply I would have been proud to have made...

And that you did so in apparent innocence makes it even more funny!

MontyPython-esque - "I paid for an argument!" "No you didn't!"

Simple contradiction is just the best!

Arsenios

It's odd that a chap can say what saint James says and be acknowledged as inspired by God and yet some contradict him asserting that to say a man is justified by works and not by faith alone is preaching works-righteousness which appears to mean preaching works-apart-from-God-makes-a-man-good-and-righteous. I haven't seen any post in CH asserting that such works make a man righteous. But Albion says he has. Maybe it was conflated posts from a Calvinist alleging that Catholics and Orthodox teach such twaddle that Albion is remembering. I don't recall you saying such a thing and I know I haven't.

:smirk:

PS: I am writing this post using Linux Mint 19 running on from a UBS memory stick on my Beelink S2 MiniPC. It's quite impressive how well it works, one might think it was a righteous PC but for the implications of works in this context

 

[Lamb]

Google knows Greek just not Koine Greek.


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Google needs to Google Koine Greek

 

[RichWh1]

Google needs to Google Koine Greek

Good one! Koine Greek is a dead language but you knew that


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[MoreCoffee]

Good one! Koine Greek is a dead language but you knew that


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But Greek isn't dead and even google can manage to translate many of the words in koine Greek. It just couldn't manage to translate all the words in the passage that I translated in a previous post.

 

[RichWh1]

The Greek language is not dead. It’s just the koine dialect that is no longer spoken, meaning it is a dead language and needs to be studied in order to be understood properly.




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[Arsenios]

Faith Alone saves...[which] doesn't mean that Faith IS alone

If there is no faith that is alone, then faith alone does not exist...

Logically you are arguing that something that does not exist is what saves you...

From the Orthodox point of view, it is not your faith that saves you anyway...

It is THE Faith which Christ discipled to His Apostles that is Christ's MEANS of bringing to us His Salvation...

That is why He discipled His Apostles and instructed them to teach us to carefully observe ALL that He had commanded them to be observing... There is no list in the Bible for all these Commandments... But there IS the Ground and the Pillar of the Truth, which IS the Ekklesia of God in Christ on earth... For the last 2000 years and counting... Against which the Gates of Hell shall not prevail...

The Faith synergizes with one's works, and by the works is the Faith of Christ perfected in the Person following Him...
That is straight from James 2... Faith is perfected by works - They work together... Works are the means of perfecting the Faith of Christ IN you... The Faith IN which you are being discipled BY the Body of Christ Who IS Her Head... This means that IF you do not DO the works, the Faith will NOT be perfected - It will not mature... The works mature the Faith... Without YOU doing the works, the Faith, the Seed you received from the Sower, is still-born and dead...

You have to water the soil with your tears... Weed it of worldly cares... Say no to impure desires... And so on...

The Parable of the Sower is clear - A person must have good soil of himself - Must acquire and cultivate it - A heart that is broken and humbled God will not despise... If you re-read the Parable of the Sower for what it is that the Sower brings, and what the various "soils" DO with that Calling, you will see that what WE bring to the Good Word of God is crucial... The same Grace is received differently by different people according to their preparation... Discipling is all about preparation to receive God's Grace... Make straight the Way of the Lord!

Faith alone without works will NEVER save you...
Faith synergizing with works will bring you to God...
And there, God will GIVE you the GIFT of Salvation...
The Gift is God Himself in union with you...

Arsenios