Double Predestination

Albion

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Picking/choosing is rejecting the rest.
God picked me but not you. Not on basis of works character foreknowledge, no He was simply playing bingo w an angel and picked only me.
Feel rejected? How so? He does not have to save anyone.
Oh how happy I am that He picked me and I am eternally secure. How neat. Pity for you. Unfortunately peanutbutter.
Seriously, how can anyone take Calvin serious? Rebuke that devil. Its unbelievable. He picked and chose. He picked ppl to kill. He made God in his own image.
Who are you referring to in the part shown in red? If it is God, that error compromises everything else about the theory of predestination. And if refers to Calvin, its simply untrue.
 

ImaginaryDay2

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So God only knows the future,but he is powerless to predestine according to his will.
Is that correct?

Look, what folks are driving at is your refusal to admit that the position you hold (carried through to its logical conclusion) affirms double predestination, which is what this thread is about.
 

MennoSota

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Look, what folks are driving at is your refusal to admit that the position you hold (carried through to its logical conclusion) affirms double predestination, which is what this thread is about.
It is merely what the Bible teaches. Since nowhere do you find the phrase "double-predestination" I do not use the term. Instead, I call it what it is. Predestination and God's Sovereignty. God does what He chooses and we never stop Him from accomplishing His will.
Josiah simply creates terms in order to make his circular thought seem legitimate when he knows it has no biblical support.
 

atpollard

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1 John 2:2 is not a lie, it's true. No need to delete several words and substitute opposite ones so that Calvin is not proven wrong.

Again, your assumption is that Protestantism is wrong in its Chief Article, Justification, and that faith is irrelevant and unnecessary. Friend, again, it's NOT Sola Gratia - Solus Christus (NO CHRISTIAN ON THE PLANET believes that but you), it's Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. Because the rest of us 2.2 billion don't join you in deleting faith, 1 John 2:2 does NOT mean that all are justified since all don't have faith to apprehend what God has provided. Don't hate 1 John 2:2. Don't deny it. And don't change John 3:16 so that it reads, "For God so loved a small minority so that He gave His holy begotten son that ALL will not parish but has everlasting life whether they believe or not."


Calvinism is very illogical when it argues that if Jesus died for all ERGO all are saved (although it's easy to see how Universalism came out of Calvinism) - it flatly contradicts Scripture, too (obviously). And Calvinism is very illogical when it argues that if Arminianism is wrong at any point, ERGO Calvinism just has to be right at all points. This comes from folks who speak so much of logic, amazing as that is.



.

Let's take 1 John 2:2 as you interpret it and true at face value.

1 John 2:2 NASB and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

So the sins of every living person have been forgiven on the Cross of Christ. The only obstacle to justification is FAITH. Is that a fair statement of what you have been claiming?

Ephesians 2:8 NASB For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

If everyone has had their sins forgiven, and some only lack faith to be justified and (per Ephesians 2:8) faith is a gift from God ... then the only reason that anyone is not justified is because God did not give them faith. Is that the Lutheran position based on following scripture?

If not then explain how I have misunderstood the scriptures.
 

Josiah

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Jesus died for the sins of all. That's what 1 John 2:2 states (no need for any interpretation).
Justification is Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. That's what Scripture states (no need for any "interpretation")
All this is the gift of God. Eph. 2:8-9, etc. That's what Scripture states (no need for any "interpretation" lol)
Jesus is the Savior. That's what Scripture states (ditto, lol)
If you are justified, it is all God's doing. Soli Deo Gloria.
That's the Lutheran position.

Now, Scripture does NOT state that Jesus is the Condemner. It does not say that Jesus is the propitiation for the sins for a small minority (and there's no way to know if that includes you) - certainly NOT for the whole world; it does not say "For God so loved a small minority of people (no way to know if that includes you) so that He gave his only begotten son but only to them and that faith is irrelevant and doesn't matter. Scripture does not say, "Most end up in hell and you should blame God for that." Scripture does not say, "God desires most to go to hell and fry eternally in hell."

I admit: Scripture doesn't tell us everything here.... Scripture doesn't "connect the dots" here in some nice, neat way that makes perfect sense to fallen, broken, sinful, limited, largely-ignorant man (any more than He did with the Trinity or Two Natures of Christ or Inspiration or nearly all other things Christians believe because God said so), Scripture doesn't say how all this "cranks out" on a practical level..... but any SPECULATION of sinful, fallen, broken, limited, largely-ignorant man would be just that. and it must be wrong if it contradicts the truth - what God has told us, for example "God does NOT will all to be saved..... Jesus did NOT die for all sins of all people.... God does NOT love the world .... God did not give His son for the whole world.... whoever believes in Him is not saved....." Do I have a nice, neat human "answer" for all the things of God? No. But I accept the soverignty of God and thus bow before Him believing He's smarter than me, knows more than me - which is what means I can believe the Trinity, the Two Natures and all other doctrines. IMO, it is not necessary that I can wrap my very, very puny brain around the things of God... and it does not make God wrong if I can't. IMO, God is not subject to the thinking of man, God is not smaller than man, God's brain is not more limited than ours. And God is under no mandate to be like fallen man and his brain and "sense" of things. We are called to be stewards of the mysteries of God, God is not called to bow before the smarts of man and, often, be corrected by man; we are not called to make God make sense to us. Thus I'm okay accepting the soveriegnty and superiority of God, even admitting "I don't know; I'm not God's equal or superior." BTW, Protestant was born out of this.... born out of protest of the way Catholicism, in it's enormous pride and its effort to supplant the soveriegnty of God and His Word, invented all these speculations that go beyond Scripture and are intended to remove the mysteries (IE correct God) , to make it all "jibe" with its logic, philosophy, "sense" and concepts of reality and what can and can't be - then turning it into dogma that divides and trouble (and at the very worse, contradicts Scripture.


See posts 99, 121, 124.


Thank you.


- Josiah
 
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MennoSota

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Jesus died for the sins of all. That's what 1 John 2:2 states (no need for any interpretation).
Justification is Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. That's what Scripture states (no need for any "interpretation")
All this is the gift of God. That's what Scripture states (no need for any "interpretation" lol)
Jesus is the Savior. That's what Scripture states (ditto, lol)
If you are justified, it is all God's doing. Soli Deo Gloria.
That's the Lutheran position.

Now, Scripture does NOT state that Jesus is the Condemner. It does not say that Jesus is the propitiation for the sins for a small minority (and there's no way to know if that includes you) - certainly NOT for the whole world; it does not say "For God so loved a small minority of people (no way to know if that includes you) so that He gave his only begotten son but only to them and that faith is irrelevant and doesn't matter. Scripture does not say, "Most end up in hell and you should blame God for that." Scripture does not say, "God desires most to go to hell and fry eternally in hell."

I admit: Scripture doesn't tell us everything here.... Scripture doesn't "connect the dots" here in some nice, neat way that makes perfect sense to fallen, broken, sinful, limited, largely-ignorant man (any more than He did with the Trinity or Two Natures of Christ or Inspiration or nearly all other things Christians believe because God said so), Scripture doesn't say how all this "cranks out" on a practical level..... but any SPECULATION of sinful, fallen, broken, limited, largely-ignorant man would be just that. and it must be wrong if it contradicts the truth - what God has told us, for example "God does NOT will all to be saved..... Jesus did NOT die for all sins of all people.... God does NOT love the world .... God did not give His son for the whole world.... whoever believes in Him is not saved....." Do I have a nice, neat human "answer" for all the things of God? No. But I accept the soverignty of God and thus bow before Him believing He's smarter than me, knows more than me - which is what means I can believe the Trinity, the Two Natures and all other doctrines. IMO, it is not necessary that I can wrap my very, very puny brain around the things of God... and it does not make God wrong if I can't. BTW, Protestant was born out of this.... born out of protest of the way Catholicism, in it's enormous pride and its effort to supplant the soveriegnty of God and His Word, invented all these speculations that go beyond Scripture and are intended to remove the mysteries (IE correct God) , to make it all "jibe" with its logic, philosophy, "sense" and concepts of reality and what can and can't be - then turning it into dogma that divides and trouble (and at the very worse, contradicts Scripture).


See posts 99, 121, 124.


Thank you.


- Josiah
You conveniently ignored Ephesians 2:8-9 and thus ignore atpollard's question. Care to try again?
I suspect you struggle to reconcile the two and thus ignore Ephesians.
 

Imalive

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So God only knows the future,but he is powerless to predestine according to his will.
Is that correct?

Yes and no.
He wants everyone to get saved, He hates sin, so I don't believe He wanted the devil to go fall and sin, but He knew that angels and ppl would rejectHim and not care about His will and He chose to give everyone free will and not make em some animals. He writes exactly in the Bible who He rejects and who/what He hates.
He is powerful enough to force everyone to follow Him. He does not want that. He's looking for a bride.
 
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Imalive

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Imalive

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So God only knows the future,but he is powerless to predestine according to his will.
Is that correct?

He cannot go against someone's will, a bit, but not completely. It stops after a while. Also because they went too far. My Spirit will not always strive w man.
That's what you get w creating autonomous beings.
Did God want Adam to eat the apple or pineapple? Then why didnt He just say so? Go eat. I want that.
 
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Imalive

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It only shows that God is smart and creative and can use something bad for something good.
 

Imalive

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MennoSota

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Yes and no.
He wants everyone to get saved, He hates sin, so I don't believe He wanted the devil to go fall and sin, but He knew that angels and ppl would rejectHim and not care about His will and He chose to give everyone free will and not make em some animals. He writes exactly in the Bible who He rejects and who/what He hates.
He is powerful enough to force everyone to follow Him. He does not want that. He's looking for a bride.

God doesn't get what he wants?
Is God too weak to stop or hold back the will of men? Humans can cast God off like a scorned lover?
I guess I didn't realize how powerful mankind is. We truly are the rulers and God is our possible suitor whom we can accept or reject with a gesture. "Come here, come here, come here...get away, get away, get away....come here, come here, come here..."
smh
 

MennoSota

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He cannot go against someone's will, a bit, but not completely. It stops after a while. Also because they went too far. My Spirit will not always strive w man.
That's what you get w creating autonomous beings.
Did God want Adam to eat the apple or pineapple? Then why didnt He just say so? Go eat. I want that.
God cannot?

smh
 

Imalive

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God cannot?

smh

I think you can better say He does not want. It goes against His Nature. Keep rejecting Him and its over.
Can God turn the devil into a sweetheart? I dont even believe He can, but one thing's for sure, He won't.
It's like: is God not able to sin or doesnt He want to?

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away,[a] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
 
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MennoSota

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I think you can better say He does not want. It goes against His Nature. Keep rejecting Him and its over.
Can God turn the devil into a sweetheart? I dont even believe He can, but one thing's for sure, He won't.
It's like: is God not able to sin or doesnt He want to?
How does a spiritually dead person reject anything? They are dead.
Imalive, you are making comments that have no biblical merit. You have created a process of salvation that is not taught in the Bible. You lift up humanity and bring God down to be lower than man. That should shock and terrify you.
 

Imalive

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How does a spiritually dead person reject anything? They are dead.
Imalive, you are making comments that have no biblical merit. You have created a process of salvation that is not taught in the Bible. You lift up humanity and bring God down to be lower than man. That should shock and terrify you.

Read the Bible. Romans 9 says why God rejected ppl and it was not some mysterious reason and He explains it everywhere.

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Rejection-Of-God,-Results-Of
 
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MennoSota

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Read the Bible. Romans 9 says why God rejected ppl and it was not some mysterious reason and He explains it everywhere.

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Rejection-Of-God,-Results-Of

God hated Esau and loved Jacob because He is Sovereign.
Where does Romans 9 say "I waited to see who would reject me or accept me."?

What is explained throughout scripture is God's Sovereign choice and man being subject under God's will.
What is NEVER talked about is man's free-will. Not once, not ever. Yet, you bring it up as though it's on every page in the Bible. Why? Why teach what isn't taught?
 

Josiah

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Where in the bible does it say God damns people to hell? It does not.
Where in the Bible does it say God desires most people to fry in hell? It does not.
Where in the Bible does it say that Jesus died for the sins of a few people but not most? It does not.
Where in the Bible does it say that God hates most people but loved only a few (not the world)? It does not.
Where in the Bible does it say that God elects most to fry eternally in hell? It does not.


Starting 500 years ago, a few people invent this conjecture entirely from what they regard as "reason". The Calvinist twists and turns what Scripture says...... twists and turns what is always in the context of comfort into a terror, Gospel into law.... what is intended to be about God's unconditional love into a horrible hate for most people. They twist this comforting doctrine about a loving God into a teaching of terror and a "god" more in common with the Allah of Islam than the God of Christianity..

Lutheranism respectfully sticks to what scriptures says. The scriptures always present predestination as a comfort. And of course, there is much here that is the paradox, unlike the Reformed who like to fiddle with scripture and make God "logical" and to make God "make sense" to them.


XI. Election. The Epitome of Concord

1] Concerning this article no public dissension has occurred among the theologians of the Augsburg Confession. But since it is a consolatory article, if treated properly, and lest offensive disputations concerning the same be instituted in the future, it is also explained in this writing.


Affirmative Theses.

The Pure and True Doctrine concerning This Article.

1. To begin with [First of all], the distinction between praescientia et praedestinatio, that is, between God's foreknowledge and His eternal election, ought to be accurately observed.

2. For the foreknowledge of God is nothing else than that God knows all things before they happen, as it is written Dan. 2:28: There is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days.

3. This foreknowledge extends alike over the godly and the wicked, but it is not the cause of evil, neither of sin, namely, of doing what is wrong (which originally arises from the devil and the wicked, perverse will of man), nor of their ruin [that men perish], for which they themselves are responsible [which they must ascribe to themselves]; but it only regulates it, and fixes a limit to it [how far it should progress and] how long it should last, and all this to the end that it should serve His elect for their salvation, notwithstanding that it is evil in itself.

4. The predestination or eternal election of God, however, extends only over the godly, beloved children of God, being a cause of their salvation, which He also provides, as well as disposes what belongs thereto. Upon this [predestination of God] our salvation is founded so firmly that the gates of hell cannot overcome it. John 10:28; Matt. 16:18.

5. This [predestination of God] is not to be investigated in the secret counsel of God, but to be sought in the Word of God, where it is also revealed.

6. But the Word of God leads us to Christ, who is the Book of Life, in whom all are written and elected that are to be saved in eternity, as it is written Eph. 1:4: He hath chosen us in Him [Christ] before the foundation of the world.

7. This Christ calls to Himself all sinners and promises them rest, and He is in earnest [seriously wills] that all men should come to Him and suffer themselves to be helped, to whom He offers Himself in His Word, and wishes them to hear it and not to stop their ears or [neglect and] despise the Word. Moreover, He promises the power and working of the Holy Ghost, and divine assistance for perseverance and eternal salvation [that we may remain steadfast in the faith and attain eternal salvation].

8. Therefore we should judge concerning this our election to eternal life neither from reason nor from the Law of God, which lead us either into a reckless, dissolute, Epicurean life or into despair, and excite pernicious thoughts in the hearts of men, for they cannot, as long as they follow their reason, successfully refrain from thinking: If God has elected me to salvation, I cannot be condemned, no matter what I do; and again: If I am not elected to eternal life, it is of no avail what good I do; it is all [all my efforts are] in vain anyway.

9. But it [the true judgment concerning predestination] must be learned alone from the holy Gospel concerning Christ, in which it is clearly testified that God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all, and that He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance and believe in the Lord Christ. Rom. 11:32; Ezek. 18:23; 33:11; 2 Pet. 3:9; 1 John 2:2.

10. Whoever, now, is thus concerned about the revealed will of God, and proceeds according to the order which St. Paul has observed in the Epistle to the Romans, who first directs men to repentance, to knowledge of sins, to faith in Christ, to divine obedience, before he speaks of the mystery of the eternal election of God, to him this doctrine [concerning God's predestination] is useful and consolatory.

11. However, that many are called and few chosen, Matt. 22:14, does not mean that God is not willing to save everybody; but the reason is that they either do not at all hear God's Word, but wilfully despise it, stop their ears and harden their hearts, and in this manner foreclose the ordinary way to the Holy Ghost, so that He cannot perform His work in them, or, when they have heard it, make light of it again and do not heed it, for which [that they perish] not God or His election, but their wickedness, is responsible. [2 Pet. 2:1ff ; Luke 11:49. 52; Heb. 12:25f.]

12. Thus far a Christian should occupy himself [in meditation] with the article concerning the eternal election of God, as it has been revealed in God's Word, which presents to us Christ as the Book of Life, which He opens and reveals to us by the preaching of the holy Gospel, as it is written Rom. 8:30: Whom He did predestinate, them He also called. In Him we are to seek the eternal election of the Father, who has determined in His eternal divine counsel that He would save no one except those who know His Son Christ and truly believe on Him. Other thoughts are to be [entirely] banished [from the minds of the godly], as they proceed not from God, but from the suggestion of the Evil Foe, whereby he attempts to weaken or entirely to remove from us the glorious consolation which we have in this salutary doctrine, namely, that we know [assuredly] that out of pure grace, without any merit of our own, we have been elected in Christ to eternal life, and that no one can pluck us out of His hand; as He has not only promised this gracious election with mere words, but has also certified it with an oath and sealed it with the holy Sacraments, which we can [ought to] call to mind in our most severe temptations, and take comfort in them, and therewith quench the fiery darts of the devil.

13. Besides, we should use the greatest diligence to live according to the will of God, and, as St. Peter admonishes, 2 Pet. 1:10, make our calling sure, and especially adhere to [not recede a finger's breadth from] the revealed Word: that can and will not fail us.

14. By this brief explanation of the eternal election of God His glory is entirely and fully given to God, that out of pure mercy alone, without all merit of ours, He saves us according to the purpose of His will; besides, also, no cause is given any one for despondency or a vulgar, wild life [no opportunity is afforded either for those more severe agitations of mind and faintheartedness or for Epicureanism].


Negative Theses

False Doctrine concerning This Article.

Accordingly, we believe and hold: When any teach the doctrine concerning the gracious election of God to eternal life in such a manner that troubled Christians cannot comfort themselves therewith, but are thereby led to despondency or despair, or the impenitent are strengthened in their wantonness, that such doctrine is treated [wickedly and erroneously] not according to the Word and will of God, but according to reason and the instigation of the cursed Satan. For, as the apostle testifies, Rom. 15:4, whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we, through patience and comfort of the Scriptures, might have hope. Therefore we reject the following errors:

1. As when it is taught that God is unwilling that all men repent and believe the Gospel.

2. Also, that when God calls us to Himself, He is not in earnest that all men should come to Him.

3. Also, that God is unwilling that every one should be saved, but that some, without regard to their sins, from the mere counsel, purpose, and will of God, are ordained to condemnation so that they cannot be saved.

4. Also, that not only the mercy of God and the most holy merit of Christ, but also in us there is a cause of God's election, on account of which God has elected us to everlasting life.

All these are blasphemous and dreadful erroneous doctrines, whereby all the comfort which they have in the holy Gospel and the use of the holy Sacraments is taken from Christians, and therefore should not be tolerated in the Church of God.

May Almighty God and the Father of our Lord Jesus grant the grace of His Holy Ghost that we all may be one in Him, and constantly abide in this Christian unity, which is well pleasing to Him! Amen.



- Josiah
 

Albion

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MennoSota said:
How does a spiritually dead person reject anything? They are dead.

Read the Bible. Romans 9 says why God rejected ppl and it was not some mysterious reason and He explains it everywhere.
It is because a spiritually dead person is spiritually dead that he rejects God. There shouldn't have been any issue with that fact.

.
 
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Josiah

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It is because a spiritually dead person is spiritually dead that he rejects God. There shouldn't have been any issue with that fact.


Correct. The "issue" I have with the uber/hyper/traditional Calvinist is the insistence that if Election of the Saved is true - ergo the equal Election of the Condemned must also be true, in other words, that if we agree with Scirpture about one we must disagree with Scripture on the other in order to be "logical." Calvinists often use the ploy that if Arminianism is wrong, ERGO Calvinism MUST be right because those are the only "logical" possibilities (although no one for 1500 years realized that or thought of either one). It's an illogical and silly ploy but used constantly. Along with "If Jesus died for all as Scripture says, then the whole world must be saved!" It too is illogical and silly (and of course also unbiblical).
 
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