Double Predestination

[ImaginaryDay2]

You refuse to think and therefore see the circular argument you have created for yourself.
Fine, but know that you are choosing to be ignorant and avoid your significant problems.

Ditto

 

[Albion]

I agree. I was attempting to present the original positions of Arminius himself that prompted the 5 points of Calvinism. Modern Arminianism owes a great debt to people like John Wesley and the evolution of later Arminians.

I think you are onto something there. What people and even some schools call Arminianism in our times is virtually indistinguishable from old fashioned free will. That's unfair to Arminius, but I think that people want to have an ”either-or” set-up because our minds like that kind of proposition to work from, so they make it be Calvinism VS. ”Arminianism.”

 

[MennoSota]

Ditto

If that is what you need to keep avoiding...

 

[MennoSota]

I think you are onto something there. What people and even some schools call Arminianism in our times is virtually indistinguishable from old fashioned free will. That's unfair to Arminius, but I think that people want to have an ”either-or” set-up because our minds like that kind of proposition to work from, so they make it be Calvinism VS. ”Arminianism.”

We may be in agreement on this.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Nothing is unclear except for the inability of some to draw the obvious (rational) conclusion of double predestination. In ordaining judgment for rebellion, God has acted, and is not a passive agent.

If that is what you need to keep avoiding...

Again, who's avoiding...?

 

[MennoSota]

You are. I have pointed out the scripture and note that God is fully Sovereign. There is no circularity in God choosing as He wills. Free-will is an entirely circular argument.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

You are. I have pointed out the scripture and note that God is fully Sovereign. There is no circularity in God choosing as He wills. Free-will is an entirely circular argument.

I agree. My point is that the position being held, that God's choosing is one-directional (saving the 'elect'), can't be true if one truly considers the predestination issue.

 

[Imalive]

We are to go to the uttermost parts of the world. We have not yet fulfilled that task.
You still put the burden of salvation on humans as though God cannot save humans without us.
God chooses to rightly and justly judge each human according to their rebellious, law breaking self. We are condemned...but as Paul says..."who will deliver me from this body of sin"..."thanks be to Jesus..." "There is now, therefore, no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."
There is no "your version". There is only God's version provided to us in His word.
Either God is entirely Sovereign, without any need of assistance, or God is not fully Sovereign and needs help. Which one is it?

Well Jesus is God and He took 12 disciples to help Him.

 

[Imalive]

Nothing is unclear except for the inability of some to draw the obvious (rational) conclusion of double predestination. In ordaining judgment for rebellion, God has acted, and is not a passive agent.

Yes and that is not in the Bible. Wesley is right. They just try to make it single predestination, which sounds nicer, but if God chooses some, He doesnt choose the rest.

Lol I just read this on Facebook:
Rather win a soul than win an argument.
God bless you. Reinhard Bonnke.

 

[MennoSota]

Well Jesus is God and He took 12 disciples to help Him.

Yes, Jesus chose 12 disciples. Those 12 didn't choose Jesus. Jesus chose them. And...Jesus chose one for the purpose of having that disciple betray Jesus. The Bible tells us this truth.

 

[Imalive]

Yes, Jesus chose 12 disciples. Those 12 didn't choose Jesus. Jesus chose them. And...Jesus chose one for the purpose of having that disciple betray Jesus. The Bible tells us this truth.

Yes so? If Jude was a cutipy who didnt want to betray Him He wouldnt have used him and He chose to use ppl and chose them to bring the gospel to the ends of the earth. Chosen for a task and to use and to become like Him and Jude He didnt choose to become like Him cause he was a jerk who did not want to lay down his life. He got the same chance. Be a jerk and do the opposite of what He tells you to do? Then He still uses you for the good of the others, just like Pharao. Jude was a devil. God uses the devil.
He did not make Lucifer to become a jerk. That he did himself.

 

[Josiah]

...and therefore, by his reading (and yours) all humanity is saved and spared hell. All humanity will be in heaven.

1 John 2:2 is not a lie, it's true. No need to delete several words and substitute opposite ones so that Calvin is not proven wrong.

Again, your assumption is that Protestantism is wrong in its Chief Article, Justification, and that faith is irrelevant and unnecessary. Friend, again, it's NOT Sola Gratia - Solus Christus (NO CHRISTIAN ON THE PLANET believes that but you), it's Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. Because the rest of us 2.2 billion don't join you in deleting faith, 1 John 2:2 does NOT mean that all are justified since all don't have faith to apprehend what God has provided. Don't hate 1 John 2:2. Don't deny it. And don't change John 3:16 so that it reads, "For God so loved a small minority so that He gave His holy begotten son that ALL will not parish but has everlasting life whether they believe or not."


Calvinism is very illogical when it argues that if Jesus died for all ERGO all are saved (although it's easy to see how Universalism came out of Calvinism) - it flatly contradicts Scripture, too (obviously). And Calvinism is very illogical when it argues that if Arminianism is wrong at any point, ERGO Calvinism just has to be right at all points. This comes from folks who speak so much of logic, amazing as that is.



.

 

[MennoSota]

Yes so? If Jude was a cutipy who didnt want to betray Him He wouldnt have used him and He chose to use ppl and chose them to bring the gospel to the ends of the earth. Chosen for a task and to use and to become like Him and Jude He didnt choose to become like Him cause he was a jerk who did not want to lay down his life. He got the same chance. Be a jerk and do the opposite of what He tells you to do? Then He still uses you for the good of the others, just like Pharao. Jude was a devil. God uses the devil.
He did not make him to become a jerk. That he did himself.

Who did the choosing?

 

[Josiah]

Did Christ die and atone for all humanity's sin? If yes, then all humanity is justified.


.

Read 1 John 2:2.


1 John 2:2. I believe God inspired the correct words (and not opposite of what He should have inspired). I don't "hate" it, I don't deny it by deleting the words in it and then substituting the opposite words, I think it's right, I think God is right. If it conflicts with your speculation, well, that's your problem.


1 John 2:2 is clear. Scripture is clear: Jesus died for all sins. And Scripture is clear: that does not mean all are justified since not all have faith. Your position, that if Jesus died for all sins then all are saved, is unbiblical (and illogical). You are just parroting an unbiblical (and illogical) but oft-made talking point of some in your denomination (and yes, it reveals how Limited Atonement is inseparable from DOUBLE Predestination, however both wrong).


OBVIOUSLY, just because Christ died for all of course does not mean all are justified. You keep making this point to TRY to support Double Predestination, but it's obviously, clearly, undeniably wrong. Of course, Universalism came out of Calvinism, but you basing your question on Universalism is absurd since you and all Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox reject it. Those justified are so because Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide applies, as ONE united and inseparable truth (the Chief Article of Protestantism). Eliminate any aspect of that (as Universalism does and as you keep trying to do with them) and justification doesn't apply. John 3:16 does not say, "For God so loved a small minority of people that He gave His only Son so all are saved regardless of whether they have faith." Thus, obviously, we can hold that Jesus died for all (and thus 1 John 2:2 is NOT lying and need not be twisted inside out and upside down as Calvinists must do) but that does not mean that all are justified. You have to deny the Chief Article and become a Universalist to hold that if 1 John 2:2 is true then ERGO all are justified. Yet you do..... continually.... as if this error supports Double Predestination (and it doesn't)


It is an illogical and silly ploy of some hyper-Calvinists to insist that if 1 John 2:2 is believed then Universalism must be believed. The ploy mandates their abandoning Protestantism and it's chief article. Just as it is a constant, illogical, silly ploy of hyper-Calvinists to insist that if they can show Arminianism is false, ERGO hyper-Calvinism is true. What an absurd, illogical position! Truth is, BOTH are in part wrong.... both are what all the Calvinists here but you have essentially admitted, both are "logical constuctions" that are "speculations" that "go beyond Scripture" in order to "remove the mystery Scripture presents." And as the other Reformed here have admitted (just not you), most Reformed have realized this and are now essentially Lutheran on this point ("its now mostly a matter of semantics"). And yes, there has been a side point where the Reformed here (except you) are distancing themselves from Limited Atonement (another part of TULIP); they aren't buying the illogical ploy that if 1 John 2:2 is actually true then all are saved because faith is entirely irrelevant and has nothing to do with anything. Your old, old Calvinist ploy here is illogical and wrong.



Back to the issue, which is DOUBLE predestination (what you stated, "God chooses some for pardon and some for punishment"). See posts 99, 121 and 124



- Josiah




.

 

[Imalive]

Who did the choosing?

God chooses based on how someone's heart is. Jesus chose to not give Himself to them cause He knew their hearts. God has foreknowledge.
Atpollard is right. I agree 100 percent w Wesley:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/jamespedlar.wordpress.com/2012/02/16/john-wesley-on-predestination/amp/

 

[Imalive]

No. I would say (and have said) that man is born in sin by virtue of Adam. The law condemns sin as lawlessness against God. God justly condemns sinners to hell.
God predetermined to whom he would extend unmerited favor (grace). Those to whom he has shown grace are pardoned because Christ Jesus has paid the debt for their sin. This payment is an act of grace. At no time was God ever obligated to be gracious. In fact, God has never shown grace to fallen angels.
Are fallen angels predestined to eternal damnation or are they justly condemned?

So who started the rejection?
God or man/angel?

 

[Imalive]

God chose those, the ones who werent uninterested:
The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, 3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come. 4 Again, he sent out other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding.”’ 5 But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. 6 And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them. 7 But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.’ 10 So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests.

11 “But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. 12 So he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and[a] cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

 

[Imalive]

Picking/choosing is rejecting the rest.
God picked me but not you. Not on basis of works character foreknowledge, no He was simply playing bingo w an angel and picked only me.
Feel rejected? How so? He does not have to save anyone.
Oh how happy I am that He picked me and I am eternally secure. How neat. Pity for you. Unfortunately peanutbutter.
Seriously, how can anyone take Calvin serious? Rebuke that devil. Its unbelievable. He picked and chose. He picked ppl to kill. He made God in his own image.

 

[MennoSota]

1 John 2:2 is not a lie, it's true. No need to delete several words and substitute opposite ones so that Calvin is not proven wrong.

Again, your assumption is that Protestantism is wrong in its Chief Article, Justification, and that faith is irrelevant and unnecessary. Friend, again, it's NOT Sola Gratia - Solus Christus (NO CHRISTIAN ON THE PLANET believes that but you), it's Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. Because the rest of us 2.2 billion don't join you in deleting faith, 1 John 2:2 does NOT mean that all are justified since all don't have faith to apprehend what God has provided. Don't hate 1 John 2:2. Don't deny it. And don't change John 3:16 so that it reads, "For God so loved a small minority so that He gave His holy begotten son that ALL will not parish but has everlasting life whether they believe or not."


Calvinism is very illogical when it argues that if Jesus died for all ERGO all are saved (although it's easy to see how Universalism came out of Calvinism) - it flatly contradicts Scripture, too (obviously). And Calvinism is very illogical when it argues that if Arminianism is wrong at any point, ERGO Calvinism just has to be right at all points. This comes from folks who speak so much of logic, amazing as that is.



.

Was John writing to the whole world?
You refuse to address universalism when that is what you teach.

 

[MennoSota]

God chooses based on how someone's heart is. Jesus chose to not give Himself to them cause He knew their hearts. God has foreknowledge.
Atpollard is right. I agree 100 percent w Wesley:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/jamespedlar.wordpress.com/2012/02/16/john-wesley-on-predestination/amp/

So God only knows the future,but he is powerless to predestine according to his will.
Is that correct?