Double Predestination

[psalms 91]

Grace is only grace if it is unmerited. You demand that humans merit God's gift by accepting it. You put all the responsibility on human choice. You eliminate grace from the situation.
I can keep pointing out Romans 3. It seems you are bent on completely ignoring it.
Sodom has nothing to do with eternal salvation and free-will. Nor does the prodigal son. You must ignore all context to use your argument.

SAnd you ignore free will and choice which is central in the bible as well

 

[Imalive]

Grace is only grace if it is unmerited. You demand that humans merit God's gift by accepting it. You put all the responsibility on human choice. You eliminate grace from the situation.
I can keep pointing out Romans 3. It seems you are bent on completely ignoring it.
Sodom has nothing to do with eternal salvation and free-will. Nor does the prodigal son. You must ignore all context to use your argument.

Stravinsk has a nice thread on Romans 3.
I hope they got saved but history shows they not all did. Paul got saved thanks to Stephen and because he did it in stupidity or something. The ones that blasphemed the Spirit would not be forgiven ever.
Here, irresistable grace:

Israel Resists the Holy Spirit
51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. 52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, 53 who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it.”

Stephen the Martyr
54 When they heard these things they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed at him with their teeth. 55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, 56 and said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”

57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and ran at him with one accord; 58 and they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not charge them with this sin.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

 

[MennoSota]

SAnd you ignore free will and choice which is central in the bible as well

Where do you find it in the Bible?
I will answer for you. You don't. Instead it is a philosophical creation.
If there were true free-will then humans would be above God. You don't believe that. You don't really believe in free will. What you believe is that a Sovereign God grants you the choice to pick him off a shelf of options. That's not true free-will. That's just God giving you a set of options.
But, given the option, God tells us that no one chooses him. (You have to ignore Romans 3 like a plague.)

 

[MennoSota]

Stravinsk has a nice thread on Romans 3.
I hope they got saved but history shows they not all did. Paul got saved thanks to Stephen and because he did it in stupidity or something. The ones that blasphemed the Spirit would not be forgiven ever.
Here, irresistable grace:

Israel Resists the Holy Spirit
51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. 52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, 53 who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it.”

Stephen the Martyr
54 When they heard these things they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed at him with their teeth. 55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, 56 and said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”

57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and ran at him with one accord; 58 and they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not charge them with this sin.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Stephen had nothing to do with Paul's salvation. Read Paul's own account in Galatians. There is nothing about Stephen in his account. No, Paul was on his way to Damascus with one thing on his mind...kill as many followers of Jesus as possible. God grabbed him, broke him and saved Paul without ever asking his permission.

 

[Imalive]

Stephen had nothing to do with Paul's salvation. Read Paul's own account in Galatians. There is nothing about Stephen in his account. No, Paul was on his way to Damascus with one thing on his mind...kill as many followers of Jesus as possible. God grabbed him, broke him and saved Paul without ever asking his permission.

Stephen prayed for him and Stravinsk is right on Romans 3. Its quoted from a Psalm and the wicked who do evil are the ones standing up against the righteous, His people.
Anyways, I give up. You wont listen anyway or put your calvinistic glasses off. I will now go watch Ducktales. Nuff of the double doubles.

 

[MennoSota]

Stephen prayed for him and Stravinsk is right on Romans 3. Its quoted from a Psalm and the wicked who do evil are the ones standing up against the righteous, His people.
Anyways, I give up. You wont listen anyway or put your calvinistic glasses off. I will now go watch Ducktales. Nuff of the double doubles.

It is quoted from the Psalms, which also tells us that no one seeks Gid, not even one.
It's straightforward, yet you won't accept it because it ruins your claim.
This has nothing to do with Calvin. If he never existed Christians would still believe what I am sharing. Why? The Bible tells us so.

 

[Imalive]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R62DL9eqbp8

 

[MennoSota]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R62DL9eqbp8

I suspect your theology is influenced by ducktales.

 

[Andrew]

thx, lol, but its true. Plus, Isnt there a way to unlike a post? This phones pretty small, you really have to aim to hit the 'like' button...idk how it 'liked' by accident, but anyway, thx for noticing, brother...btw, how's it going?

Im doing good, errmm im bored a lot lately which only means that sooner or later something exciting is bound to interrupt it tho see there is always an upside to things. How are you?

Sent from my LGLS755 using Tapatalk

 

[Romanos]

Let's avoid the attacks against other members please and keep the discussion healthy and professional.

 

[Imalive]

It is quoted from the Psalms, which also tells us that no one seeks Gid, not even one.
It's straightforward, yet you won't accept it because it ruins your claim.
This has nothing to do with Calvin. If he never existed Christians would still believe what I am sharing. Why? The Bible tells us so.

Please. It is evil to pick based on nothing or on yourself. Noone wants to follow such an evil God. Calvin made this up and that other guy. They renounced it and called it anathema in 500 AD. Noone taught that. Calvin wondered why ppl didnt want God and made this up. He could have been the cause that they werent interested. My Name is mocked among the heathens because of you. If the church is one the world will know that You sent Me.
Theres 2 kids in a ditch drowning. An identical twin. 2 years old. It is a piece of cake for me to get them both out but I pick only one. That is immoral and evil. Period.

 

[Imalive]

I'm now having the discussion on hardening on a Dutch forum. One woman had a good one:

Mark 3:5New King James Version (NKJV)
5 And when He had looked around at them with anger, being grieved by the hardness of their hearts, He said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” And he stretched it out, and his hand was restored as whole as the other.


Interesting stuff.
http://www.chaimbentorah.com/2014/01/word-study-blinded-eyes/
I think I found the other explanation when I read this in my Aramaic Bible. The Aramaic word used for he has blinded is awaro which is a third person plural passive voice, not a third person singular active voice. I have rechecked and rechecked and clearly awar, the singular active is not used but awaro the plural passive is used. Hence the Aramaic would read: “They have become blind,” not “he made them blind.”

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo ... pter-6.htm
10This people's heart is becoming fat, and his ears are becoming heavy, and his eyes are becoming sealed, lest he see with his eyes, and hear with his ears, and his heart understand, and he repent and be healed

Matthew 13:
And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:


‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;

15
For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should[a] heal them.’


He blinded Saul.

http://thetorah.com/the-ethical-problem-of-hardening-pharaohs-heart/
Maimonides posits free will as the correlation between sin and repentance, but not without limits. He cites numerous examples, including both non-Israelites and Israelites, who were prevented from repenting because of their sinful behavior, concluding (Laws of Repentance 6:2),
כולן חטאו מעצמן וכולן נתחייבו למנוע מהן התשובה.
All of them sinned willfully and deserve to be prevented from repenting

 

[meluckycharms]

God is only a predictor? God isn't in Sovereign control?
Why do you make God small?

Once again, you are confusing God's sovereignty with His providence and governance. Just because God is sovereign (has authority over all creation) does not necessarily mean His providence (God's involvement and direction in creation) is absolute. To suggest this only concludes hard determinism where God is the author and originator of sin and evil and deny His goodness.

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[Albion]

Theres 2 kids in a ditch drowning. An identical twin. 2 years old. It is a piece of cake for me to get them both out but I pick only one. That is immoral and evil. Period.

IF that reasoning is correct, then there is no way to argue against Universal Salvation. Yet, the Bible does not seem to endorse Universal Salvation. Therefore, it appears that there is something about saving one kid that is moral and Godly after all, even though we mortals don't understand it.

 

[Imalive]

IF that reasoning is correct, then there is no way to argue against Universal Salvation. Yet, the Bible does not seem to endorse Universal Salvation. Therefore, it appears that there is something about saving one kid that is moral and Godly after all, even though we mortals don't understand it.

God doesnt just pick and choose. He calls everyone and not everyone responds. If there was one adult in a lake who couldnt swim and I try to save him, but he keeps shooting at me, I cant save him or that elephant that drowned w a flood. He was so dumb and stubborn, they had to kill him.
Thats not a good example. Jesus died for those who killed Him. But those that couldnt come to Him was not just pick and choose. They had hardened their hearts too much.

 

[meluckycharms]

IF that reasoning is correct, then there is no way to argue against Universal Salvation. Yet, the Bible does not seem to endorse Universal Salvation. Therefore, it appears that there is something about saving one kid that is moral and Godly after all, even though we mortals don't understand it.

Universal atonement....not universal salvation.

 

[Albion]

God doesnt just pick and choose.

Well, according to the Bible, he does. It teaches us in many places that God has his Elect and that he chooses some people for certain purposes and others for different ones. He even decided on a Chosen Race!

 

[Imalive]

Well, according to the Bible, he does. It teaches us in many places that God has his Elect and that he chooses some people for certain purposes and others for different ones. He even decided on a Chosen Race!

Yes, He uses who He wants, but He doesnt just pick and choose this unborn baby that dies yes and this one go to hell sorry not in the Book. Thats what double predestination says.

 

[Albion]

Yes, He uses who He wants, but He doesnt just pick and choose this unborn baby that dies yes and this one go to hell sorry not in the Book. Thats what double predestination says.

Frankly, I don't see any reason to deny that he may do this after we've agreed that he does choose whom he wants to choose in all sorts of other situations.

This isn't to say that I'm a believer in Double Predestination, but I cannot rule it out simply on a kindhearted rationalization and one that is quite choosy or inconsistent to boot! Whatever the Bible teaches should, as always, be the determiner.

 

[Albion]

Universal atonement....not universal salvation.

OK. Universalists would see this as proving Universal Salvation, but I would agree that it would be easier to apply it to Universal Atonement.