Double Predestination

[user1234]

smh, you are still missing atpollard's point and adding something else.

I DID NOT 'LIKE' THIS POST. I DONT KNOW WHY IT SHOWS THAT I 'LIKED' IT.
IS THERE A WAY TO REMOVE A 'LIKE' THAT IS THERE IN ERROR?

 

[Albion]

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.

But of course ''spiritually dead'' (a quote from MennoSota's earlier post) does not mean physically dead.

MennoSota's claim that those resting in their graves cannot make any decision is true, of course, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with what we were discussing.

 

[Andrew]

I DID NOT 'LIKE' THIS POST. I DONT KNOW WHY IT SHOWS THAT I 'LIKED' IT.
IS THERE A WAY TO REMOVE A 'LIKE' THAT IS THERE IN ERROR?

Its ok brother i'll take your word on that lol

Sent from my LGLS755 using Tapatalk

 

[Andrew]

But of course ''spiritually dead'' (a quote from MennoSota's earlier post) does not mean physically dead.

MennoSota's claim that those resting in their graves cannot make any decision is true, of course, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with what we were discussing.

So is spiritual death and physical death the 2 deaths of an unrepented sinner? Oh no im getting that 'perish' hunch again.

Sent from my LGLS755 using Tapatalk

 

[user1234]

Its ok brother i'll take your word on that lol

Sent from my LGLS755 using Tapatalk

thx, lol, but its true. Plus, Isnt there a way to unlike a post? This phones pretty small, you really have to aim to hit the 'like' button...idk how it 'liked' by accident, but anyway, thx for noticing, brother...btw, how's it going?

 

[MennoSota]

I DID NOT 'LIKE' THIS POST. I DONT KNOW WHY IT SHOWS THAT I 'LIKED' IT.
IS THERE A WAY TO REMOVE A 'LIKE' THAT IS THERE IN ERROR?

LOL, did your lower-case stop working or is this a virtual shout?
It's a good thing my sense of self is not tied to the CH and whether or not people like or dislike what I say.
Thanks for bringing a smile, Snerf.

 

[MennoSota]

But of course ''spiritually dead'' (a quote from MennoSota's earlier post) does not mean physically dead.

MennoSota's claim that those resting in their graves cannot make any decision is true, of course, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with what we were discussing.

You were dead in your trespasses and sins.
Who was it that made you alive? Was it you, by your own choice to "accept" Christ?

 

[atpollard]

smh, you are still missing atpollard's point and adding something else.

She is allowed. [MENTION=378]Imalive[/MENTION] is Arminian at her core and allowed to disagree with the basic assumptions of Predestination. She accepts more of a free will to choose to believe or not believe Jesus. When we get to heaven, she or I or both of us will be wrong on some of the details, but we will both be trusting in Jesus as our Lord and Savior.

Like the Moravians say: In essentials Unity, in non-essentials Liberty, and in all things Charity.
Which basically means ... agree to keep Jesus first, don't sweat the small stuff, and try to play nice (Father is watching).

 

[Albion]

Like the Moravians say: In essentials Unity, in non-essentials Liberty, and in all things Charity.

(and like a number of other denominations also say )






.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

I DID NOT 'LIKE' THIS POST. I DONT KNOW WHY IT SHOWS THAT I 'LIKED' IT.
IS THERE A WAY TO REMOVE A 'LIKE' THAT IS THERE IN ERROR?

I DID NOT LIKE MENNOSOTA!
All good, Snerf
I'm sure irl he's a good guy

 

[user1234]

LOL, did your lower-case stop working or is this a virtual shout?

[SIZE=+2]YES?[/SIZE]

It's a good thing my sense of self is not tied to the CH and whether or not people like or dislike what I say.

Now THAT'S the spirit! :cheer:
(Wait...Should I be insulted? :boggled: )

Thanks for bringing a smile, Snerf.

Certainly. Now if I could only remember where I put it. Hey, can you help keep an eye on it for me? Darn thing keeps runnin' away! Thanks.

 

[Imalive]

What's your point?
I see God Sovereignly choosing according to His own will.
Do you see free-will in those verses?

Not in these, but in other verses about those ppl I do. It's not about Joe, the average heathen. It's about the chosen, Israel. God did not just for no reason whatsoever predict that most wouldn't accept Him, because He was a stumbling stone for them. Their heart wasn't good. The hard soil does not produce fruit when the Word comes.
'Free will', of course if you are blind you cannot freely see. God has to do a miracle. But He must have some real good reason to not do that miracle. You see Jesus telling everyone: come, come, come, grace, love and then to some He spoke in parables so they would not hear it and He would not heal them or save them.
Rejecting is their fault, not Gods fault.

 

[Imalive]

I dont agree w everything this guy says, but this is a good point he makes:

John 12:40 says that God hardens some mens hearts, and blinds their eyes so they can’t understand and be converted and healed. John12:39 says that they could not believe because of this. So did these men have a free will to believe in God.

This is my response:

“But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? And to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.” John 12:37-40


Furthermore, interpreting John 12:40 the way that you do makes it sound like these men would have believed but God intervened so that they wouldn’t. Is that what you are saying? Do you believe that sinners are capable of believing without God’s help? That these people were about to believe but God stopped it? If sinners are totally depraved at birth in the Calvinist sense, so that they cannot repent and believe unless God regenerates their constitution and gives them the power to do so, then it is not necessary for God to blind their eyes or harden their hearts. In Calvinism, there would be no possibility of men repenting and believing at the message unless God changes their constitution and enables them to do so, so why would God have to blind their eyes and harden their hearts lest they believe and are converted? It would be unnecessary for God to do this. For a Calvinist to view this passage in the way that you do contradicts your own Calvinist doctrine of the total inability of man. Thus you are creating a systematic contradiction between the Calvinist doctrine of total depravity and the Calvinist doctrine of reprobation.

Essentially, this Calvinistic interpretation of this passage blames God for the impenitence and unbelief of man. Yet God continually blames men for their impenitence and unbelief. Jesus rebuked entire cities for not repenting and even marveled at their unbelief. This implies that men could have repented and could have believed, as God wanted them to, but they chose not to contrary to the will of God.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/biblic...ts-of-unbelievers-is-this-predestination/amp/

 

[atpollard]

(and like a number of other denominations also say ).

Yeah, the quote didn't originate with them. The Moravian Church just made it their 'official' motto.

None of the other churches that I attended had an official motto.
Arthur

 

[Josiah]

Rejecting is their fault, not Gods fault......Rejecting is their fault, not Gods fault.

I agree. Jesus is the Savior, not the Condemner. God is love, not hate. God desires all to be saved, not most to fry eternally in hell. God loved the world (not hated most of it). Jesus is the propitiation of the sins of all, not for just a small minority. As has been admitted, this conjecture of John Calvin invented in the 16th Century is his "speculation" that "goes beyond Scripture" (IE is not supported by Scripture) intended to "remove the mystery God presents in Scripture." Thus, it is the conjecture of a man, FORCED upon Scripture in order to make God agree with the "logic" of the man (God being subject to man, God not being as smart as man, man being sovereign over God) - which thus means a LOT of what God actually verbatim said must be wrong and changed so that God doesn't come off stupid, such as "all" = few, "world" = tiny minority, "love" = hate, etc., etc., etc. It ends up with GOD being the one to blame for those in hell, God being primarily the Condemner, the Hater... the Doctrine of Election being twisted into the opposite of what it is.



- Josiah

 

[MennoSota]

Not in these, but in other verses about those ppl I do. It's not about Joe, the average heathen. It's about the chosen, Israel. God did not just for no reason whatsoever predict that most wouldn't accept Him, because He was a stumbling stone for them. Their heart wasn't good. The hard soil does not produce fruit when the Word comes.
'Free will', of course if you are blind you cannot freely see. God has to do a miracle. But He must have some real good reason to not do that miracle. You see Jesus telling everyone: come, come, come, grace, love and then to some He spoke in parables so they would not hear it and He would not heal them or save them.
Rejecting is their fault, not Gods fault.

God is only a predictor? God isn't in Sovereign control?
Why do you make God small?

 

[Imalive]

God is only a predictor? God isn't in Sovereign control?
Why do you make God small?

I dont. He is sovereign. Jesus did not want to save pharisees who blasphemed the Spirit. So He still used them to get the world saved as a stupid vessel. Why do you make Him some dictator like Allah? Wow say he is strong. He doesnt get killed by his own creation. But the weak of God is stronger.

 

[MennoSota]

Why do you make Him some dictator like Allah?

Allah is not gracious. He may be merciful, but not gracious.
When you claim that humans determine their own fate by accepting or rejecting Jesus atonement, you remove grace as a possibility. You turn God into Allah where only mercy can be provided.
Either God is merciful if you accept him, or he is not merciful if you reject him. What is non-existent, in your teaching, is grace. God giving you unmerited favor regardless of your actions. That's grace. But, you want no part of it.
My Sovereign King is no Allah. My God is very gracious. But, you remove grace from God. It is your teaching that is equal to Muslim teachings. You both reject grace and only receive mercy.

 

[Imalive]

Allah is not gracious. He may be merciful, but not gracious.
When you claim that humans determine their own fate by accepting or rejecting Jesus atonement, you remove grace as a possibility. You turn God into Allah where only mercy can be provided.
Either God is merciful if you accept him, or he is not merciful if you reject him. What is non-existent, in your teaching, is grace. God giving you unmerited favor regardless of your actions. That's grace. But, you want no part of it.
My Sovereign King is no Allah. My God is very gracious. But, you remove grace from God. It is your teaching that is equal to Muslim teachings. You both reject grace and only receive mercy.

No God gives enormous much grace and He's very patient, but if one really does not want and keeps resisting Him, then not. He destroyed Jerusalem, they got 40 years to repent after Jesus died and a lot did and those that didnt, they were judged. Sodom would have been saved if tgey had seen those miracles. There was no excuse. If you keep hardening your neck its over says a text in a book from Salomo. They were chosen. He does not all of a sudden choose to blind His own people. He gave His Life. Reject that and then its over unless Paul got some jealous, but those that sin unto death you should not even pray for. Otherwise there was universalism even for the devil. The lost son came back. The oldest did not want.
And if there is no free will to resist Him, then everyone would be saved.
My Spirit will not always strive with man. God has boundaries. He's not a doormat. Those pharisees were as bad as once born again believers who went away and became false teachers. They would crucify Him again and make Him a mockery.

 

[MennoSota]

No God gives enormous much grace and He's very patient, but if one really does not want and keeps resisting Him, then not. He destroyed Jerusalem, they got 40 years to repent after Jesus died and a lot did and those that didnt, they were judged. Sodom would have been saved if tgey had seen those miracles. There was no excuse. If you keep hardening your neck its over says a text in a book from Salomo. They were chosen. He does not all of a sudden choose to blind His own people. He gave His Life. Reject that and then its over unless Paul got some jealous, but those that sin unto death you should not even pray for. Otherwise there was universalism even for the devil. The lost son came back. The oldest did not want.

Grace is only grace if it is unmerited. You demand that humans merit God's gift by accepting it. You put all the responsibility on human choice. You eliminate grace from the situation.
I can keep pointing out Romans 3. It seems you are bent on completely ignoring it.
Sodom has nothing to do with eternal salvation and free-will. Nor does the prodigal son. You must ignore all context to use your argument.