What is God's role in salvation?

[Arsenios]

You have to ask yourself what the point of repentance is.

It is not a point, Lamm - It is the Way of the Christian Life...
It is as much as we can do to imitate God...

Mat 11:29
Take My yoke upon you, and learn of me;
for I am meek and lowly in heart:
and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Then remind yourself that salvation is by grace through faith and this is not of yourself.

Salvation is not of yourself...
Nor is God's Grace...
Nor is the Faith of Christ which He discipled to His Disciples...

God CALLS to repentance those whom he later Justifies...

Repentance is for the sinner to do...
Repentance is within the power of the sinner...
Repentance is one's desire to turn from sin...
God gives the Power...
But He does not give it to those who do not desire...
He does not give it to those who are not willing...
He does not give His Power to those who scorn...
To those who turn from repentance...
And there is a cost...
And we are discipled to count that cost...
It is a cost only the sinner can pay...

Repentance isn't just for you to be sorry for your sins and try to stop them.

That is a start...

Godly Sorrow is unto deep repentance...

Given to those who are expending themselves in repentance...

Why would God have repentance ONLY be about that?

God does not have repentance, and man only has it if he is willing to repent...

God does not need repentance - We do...

He doesn't.

Of course not - He wants YOU and ME to repent, not Himself...

He wants us to have faith in Him and that faith is given to us as He turns us to Him (by grace through His word).

Scripture tells us that the Call of God is unto repentance...

And "Whom He hath Called, the also He Justifies..."

This means He does not Justify the unrepentant, and does not Glorify those He has not Justified...

You know these verses...

Repentance is for sinners...we sin daily so yes, we repent daily.

God's Call to Repentance is for those not yet Justified by God...

Repentance has a purpose and that is to turn to God, where we should be because He calls us.

The purpose Biblically is to Call sinners to repentance from sin...

They do not yet know how to turn to God...

Nor do they need to know...

But they CAN turn from the sins they are so aware of in themselves...

They CAN ask God for help...

They CAN enter into the discipling of the Ekklesia of God, the Body of Christ...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Same here brother, I was a complete atheist anti-Christ up until around the age 30 or so, I was at my lowest point and I began praying to God for help. Sometimes looking back I wonder what made me 'know' I was speaking to the God I had been so sure didn't exist, I wonder how many atheist will find themselves bowing their knees in prayer to the God they believed was make believe.
He was always there but in time he will reveal himself to those he loves.

I saw that you too were...

fwiw, I proved to God, after I came to know Him, that He does not exist...

His reply was hmmmmmm....

Turns out that in the Orthodox Apophatic Theology I am right...

God GIVES existence, and takes it away...

He is WAY beyond existing and not existing...

I was an Ayn Rand Objectivist - Full and Bye!

Objects in Objectivism lose their luster across time...

I do think it is the best of the worldly philosophies...

She is the base thinker behind the Libertarians...

I took it as far as I could, and it failed...

I went further until I failed...

And receiving failure dispassionately, I met God...

No small matter...

I suffer terminal, constant, and even irrational, Joy...

I see myself as an outside passage Christian...

Discipled in the world...

God did not let me know He is the Christian God for 14 years...

I was scandalized when He did...

And got over it...


Arsenios

 

[Lamb]

Without God, is man able to truly repent is the question? The answer is NO.

 

[Arsenios]

Without God, is man able to truly repent is the question? The answer is NO.

Without man BELIEVING IN God, the answer is yes...

Without God, man can do nothing...

He cannot even take his next breath...

Yet there are many atheists who strive arduously to live lives purged of evil...

They succeed and fail in varying degrees...

Just like us Christians...


Arsenios

 

[Lamb]

Without man BELIEVING IN God, the answer is yes...

Without God, man can do nothing...

He cannot even take his next breath...

Yet there are many atheists who strive arduously to live lives purged of evil...

They succeed and fail in varying degrees...

Just like us Christians...


Arsenios

You don't want to include the turning to God as part of repentance though. Yet, that's what it is. Repentance is never just about trying to be a good boy. The entire bible is to point us to the Savior...so repentance turns us to the one true God.

 

[Arsenios]

You don't want to include the turning to God as part of repentance though. Yet, that's what it is. Repentance is never just about trying to be a good boy. The entire bible is to point us to the Savior...so repentance turns us to the one true God.

When the call to repentance is by Divine Visitation,
then yes, one will normally will be drawn toward God Who Called
And this drawing TO God is in repentance FROM sin...
Your FEELINGS about this will vary according to the one Called...

But repentance is not toward God, but FROM sin...
I lived repentance while denying God exists...
And in this repentance, God made Himself known to me...
Which I called the Greening of an Atheist at the time...

Turning toward God is the PURPOSE of repentance...
Repentance prepares the way of God in your soul...
The Voice of One Calling in the Wilderness...
Make Straight the Way of the Lord...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

It is not a point, Lamm - It is the Way of the Christian Life...
It is as much as we can do to imitate God...

Mat 11:29
Take My yoke upon you, and learn of me;
for I am meek and lowly in heart:
and ye shall find rest unto your souls.



Salvation is not of yourself...
Nor is God's Grace...
Nor is the Faith of Christ which He discipled to His Disciples...

God CALLS to repentance those whom he later Justifies...

Repentance is for the sinner to do...
Repentance is within the power of the sinner...
Repentance is one's desire to turn from sin...
God gives the Power...
But He does not give it to those who do not desire...
He does not give it to those who are not willing...
He does not give His Power to those who scorn...
To those who turn from repentance...
And there is a cost...
And we are discipled to count that cost...
It is a cost only the sinner can pay...



That is a start...

Godly Sorrow is unto deep repentance...

Given to those who are expending themselves in repentance...



God does not have repentance, and man only has it if he is willing to repent...

God does not need repentance - We do...



Of course not - He wants YOU and ME to repent, not Himself...



Scripture tells us that the Call of God is unto repentance...

And "Whom He hath Called, the also He Justifies..."

This means He does not Justify the unrepentant, and does not Glorify those He has not Justified...

You know these verses...



God's Call to Repentance is for those not yet Justified by God...



The purpose Biblically is to Call sinners to repentance from sin...

They do not yet know how to turn to God...

Nor do they need to know...

But they CAN turn from the sins they are so aware of in themselves...

They CAN ask God for help...

They CAN enter into the discipling of the Ekklesia of God, the Body of Christ...


Arsenios

Repentance is not within the power of the unredeemed sinner. The unredeemed sinner will turn to anything other than God. Only God can turn the sinner to Himself so that they might repent.
Because Christians are redeemed, it does not mean we are without sin or its temptations. It means that we have a Redeemer who will stand before the Father and claim us inspite of our wretched condition. THAT is GRACE.

 

[Lamb]

Turning toward God is the PURPOSE of repentance...

Exactly. You can't turn to God unless you are given faith which means that unbelievers don't fully repent. (see John 6)
They just feel sorry for their sins. But that isn't the true Christian repentance since as you say, the purpose is turning toward God.

 

[Arsenios]

Exactly. You can't turn to God unless you are given faith which means that unbelievers don't fully repent. (see John 6)
They just feel sorry for their sins. But that isn't the true Christian repentance since as you say, the purpose is turning toward God.

True repentance is never doing the sin repented from again...

"Feel-Bads" are your preoccupation...

Repentance is ceasing from doing sin...

It is not emotionalist smarm...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Repentance is not within the power of the unredeemed sinner. The unredeemed sinner will turn to anything other than God. Only God can turn the sinner to Himself so that they might repent.
Because Christians are redeemed, it does not mean we are without sin or its temptations. It means that we have a Redeemer who will stand before the Father and claim us inspite of our wretched condition. THAT is GRACE.

Grace is where God removes one's inclination toward sin from one's soul...
Grace is where God gives one the power to not sin...

Turning from and turning toward sin is man's to do...
Doing it is by God's provision...
We have both good and evil within us...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Grace is where God removes one's inclination toward sin from one's soul...
Grace is where God gives one the power to not sin...

Turning from and turning toward sin is man's to do...
Doing it is by God's provision...
We have both good and evil within us...


Arsenios

Grace is God giving to you what you do not deserve.
Mercy is God not giving to you what you do deserve.
Spiritually dead men cannot turn to God. They can turn from one self discipline to the next, but they cannot , nor will they, turn to God from sin apart from God first making them alive with Christ.
If humans could do it on their own, then God would not be necessary for salvation.

 

[Lamb]

True repentance is never doing the sin repented from again...

"Feel-Bads" are your preoccupation...

Repentance is ceasing from doing sin...

It is not emotionalist smarm...


Arsenios

Except you admitted that turning toward God is the purpose of repentance. So how can a man who does not have faith turn to God he does not believe in? He doesn't. God turns us to Him.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Grace is where God removes one's inclination toward sin from one's soul...
Grace is where God gives one the power to not sin...

Turning from and turning toward sin is man's to do...
Doing it is by God's provision...
We have both good and evil within us...


Arsenios

Is grace given continuously, or sporadically? There are some Orthodox teachings that say that God grants us grace in abundance for a period of time and then departs from us for a while, letting the devil tempt us, in order to see if we will use the grace we have experienced as a means of abstaining from the temptations. If we don't abstain the temptations, God might take some time before He answers our prayers of repentance and before He offers us grace once more.

Also, on an unrelated note, I cannot reply to the private message you sent me because your inbox is full. The message I got when I tried to reply to your PM was: Arsenios has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space.

 

[Lamb]

Arsenios, you can use the CH Shop to increase PM space size. Read this thread or go directly to the Shop! http://christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?6662-Increase-Your-PM-Box-Size!&p=158488#post158488

Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.

 

[MennoSota]

Arsenios, you can use the CH Shop to increase PM space size. Read this thread or go directly to the Shop! http://christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?6662-Increase-Your-PM-Box-Size!&p=158488#post158488

Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.

Delete is your friend...

 

[Arsenios]

Repentance is not within the power of the unredeemed sinner.

Had you hung with me then, you would not have recognized my repentance as repentance...
And you would have perceived me as a discard from the human race...

The unredeemed sinner will turn to anything other than God.

I denied God, and threw away my whole life to defeat my sin in me...

Only God can turn the sinner to Himself so that they might repent.

Speak for yourself - You were not there...

Because Christians are redeemed,
it does not mean we are without sin or its temptations.
It means that we have a Redeemer who will stand before the Father
and claim us inspite of our wretched condition.
THAT is GRACE.

I repented before all that...
While denying God's existence...
And I walked with Him 14 years not knowing He is the Christian God...
Do NOT imitate my life prior to God!


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Had you hung with me then, you would not have recognized my repentance as repentance...
And you would have perceived me as a discard from the human race...



I denied God, and threw away my whole life to defeat my sin in me...



Speak for yourself - You were not there...



I repented before all that...
While denying God's existence...
And I walked with Him 14 years not knowing He is the Christian God...
Do NOT imitate my life prior to God!


Arsenios

Your repentance never saved you. If you imagine that it saves you now, you are placing your faith in a false god; an idol of your own making.

 

[Arsenios]

Your repentance never saved you. If you imagine that it saves you now, you are placing your faith in a false god; an idol of your own making.

Of course it never saved me -

It prepared the Way of the Lord...

It is God Who Saves, not man...

Man repents and God Saves...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Is grace given continuously, or sporadically? There are some Orthodox teachings that say that God grants us grace in abundance for a period of time and then departs from us for a while, letting the devil tempt us, in order to see if we will use the grace we have experienced as a means of abstaining from the temptations. If we don't abstain the temptations, God might take some time before He answers our prayers of repentance and before He offers us grace once more.

You ARE Orthodox!

And you are right...

The withdrawal of Grace is itself a Grace...

That we should know the work we still have before us...

You look like a friend of mine named Seraphim...

Also, on an unrelated note, I cannot reply to the private message you sent me because your inbox is full. The message I got when I tried to reply to your PM was: Arsenios has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space.

I deleted a bunch of messages - Should invest shekels in more storage...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Of course it never saved me -

It prepared the Way of the Lord...

It is God Who Saves, not man...

Man repents and God Saves...


Arsenios

God saves, man repents.
You still put the cart before the horse and celebrate man.