What is God's role in salvation?

[Lamb]

The unbeliever in my case certainly wanted nothing to do with so-called Christians who were perceived to be little more than judgmental hypocrites...

Now granted, I am not a normal example, but AFTER I knew God, He let me think He was not the Christian God for 14 years...

In fact, I knew for a fact that the God I knew had nothing to do with the God of those "Christians"...

When He finally told me I am a Christian, I was utterly scandalized at the very idea...

I had been walking with God and talking with Him for 14 years, living only because of Him...

So I know first hand that Salvation can be found by unbelievers...

I still question my faith, but not Whom I KNOW...

I seriously think I am a faithless wretch...

But God is NOT in question in THIS wretched soul...

Maybe someday He will be in question...

Perhaps as old age progresses...

Or disease perchance arises...

But "If ever I forget Thee O Jerusalem..."

I do not want to live...


Arsenios

God found you. You didn't go after Him. Give God credit due to Him.

 

[Lamb]

Then why do you argue: "The non-believer can do nothing apart from God acting first."???

Because you argue that non-believers can only sin, and "can do nothing apart from God acting first."

I agree it is a silly argument, but it is you, and not I, who is making it...



Sin is the result of being born in the Fall of Adam into death, which is the ad-mixture of knowing Good and evil... Only God can know both and remain pure, which is another reason why we are baptized into Christ... Sinning has always been a matter of degree among all people, according to the person, which is why the Judgement is according to each person and what deeds they have done in their lives... Repentance is turning from sin, and we are Called by God TO repentance from sin... But God is always acting in us even prior to this Call - And this you seem to deny... That God is only the God of the already Saved, when the fact is He is working in the lives of all sinners unto their conversion when Called by Him...

Sinning man knows he is sinning, even when he is an unbeliever... Some engage their sin to overcome it, and others embrace it, and most are mixtures, and God is active among them all, and He is active in the lives of believers who also are struggling with sin, or not, who are embracing it...

The embracing of sin in the world does not lead to one's Salvation, but struggling against sin does, especially now after Christ's Incarnation...


Arsenios

You refuse to see that the Christian repentance is not just stopping from doing something wrong. It's turning to God in faith. Nonbelievers don't believe in God to turn to Him. Hence, they do not fully repent.

 

[Arsenios]

You refuse to see that the Christian repentance is not just stopping from doing something wrong. It's turning to God in faith. Nonbelievers don't believe in God to turn to Him. Hence, they do not fully repent.

You have accurately depicted the difference...

You cannot turn to a God in Whom you do not believe, and that believing takes a lot of forms...

Yet repentance is FROM sin, and not TOWARD God...

How do you REPENT TOWARD GOD??

I do know how one repents FROM sin...

You just stop doing it...

This you denigrate as mere "worldly repentance"...

I do not think God denigrates repentance from sin...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Nonbelievers don't believe in God to turn to Him.
Hence, they do not fully repent.

True repentance is never committing the same sin again...

God DOES Call us to repentance, yes?

And repentance is PRIOR TO Justification by God, yes?


Arsenios

 

[Lamb]

True repentance is never committing the same sin again...

God DOES Call us to repentance, yes?

And repentance is PRIOR TO Justification by God, yes?


Arsenios

You left out God. You need to put God back into the truth of what repentance is.

Acts 20:21 "I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus."

 

[Arsenios]

You left out God. You need to put God back into the truth of what repentance is.

Acts 20:21 "I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus."

The Scripture here is clear - One must turn to God IN repentance...

And clearly it does not say that repentance IS turning to God...

One must already be repenting in order to turn to God...

Repentance is one thing...

Turning to God is another...

Thank-you for that very helpful Scripture...


Arsenios

 

[Lamb]

The Scripture here is clear - One must turn to God IN repentance...

And clearly it does not say that repentance IS turning to God...

One must already be repenting in order to turn to God...

Repentance is one thing...

Turning to God is another...

Thank-you for that very helpful Scripture...


Arsenios

If you don't turn to God, then you aren't in full repentance. Turning away from sin...that's only the first part. The second part is turning toward God as the verse states. Again you keep leaving God out of the equation and don't give Him credit where it's due.

 

[Arsenios]

If you don't turn to God, then you aren't in full repentance. Turning away from sin...that's only the first part. The second part is turning toward God as the verse states. Again you keep leaving God out of the equation and don't give Him credit where it's due.

The way it normally works is that, if you receive, say, the Apostolic Calling from God as did Paul, then the event is overwhelming, and you will immediately stop with your major sins, and in remembrance of God you now know, you will seek Him and call upon Him and conjoin yourself to Him insofar as you can at this early stage... And it varies greatly from person to person...

In the early Church, one would seek out the Church for healing, being discipled in the Way of God, and being Baptized into Christ, all by God... You seem to have a great deal invested in your accusation against me that I keep on leaving God out of this unfolding, and if you start with the Call of God unto Repentance, which is what I do, then it is God Who is Calling a person to repentance, and God is present at the beginning... But I am further affirming of the movement of God even in the souls of unbelievers in such a way that the Call is prepared for in and by life's events... The Way is prepared for the Call to succeed, generally by crises and failures...

fwiw, I do not like to see the usage of the word "Equation" regarding Salvation... I know Josiah uses it a lot, and likes to accuse others of trying to ADD TO the Salvation only God can give... And that this "adding to" he accuses me of doing when I say that we must repent prior to being Justified by God... It is a particularly odious and malodorous accusation by equation: "God's Grace plus WHAT, Arsenios, adds up to salvation, hey???" (snark-snark)

The EOC understands that God gives His Grace of Salvation freely and very much superabundantly, and we further understand that the better prepared for it we are in our discipleship, the MORE of that Grace we will be able to retain... So that repentance does not add so much as a speck to God's Grace of Salvation, but it most assuredly enables the penitent to retain MORE of what ONLY God can give and does give superabundantly... Some retain but little, and others a great deal, each according to preparation and God's purposing...

Someone unprepared will retain little of it but a head's up that God is real...
A deeply prepared person will enter into profound Union with God right away...

But Joseph does not believe in preparation to receive Christ...

He believes in receiving Salvation first, and only THEN preparation...

Which is why his teaching is so heinous...


Arsenios

 

[atpollard]

You have accurately depicted the difference...

You cannot turn to a God in Whom you do not believe, and that believing takes a lot of forms...

Yet repentance is FROM sin, and not TOWARD God...

How do you REPENT TOWARD GOD??

I do know how one repents FROM sin...

You just stop doing it...

This you denigrate as mere "worldly repentance"...

I do not think God denigrates repentance from sin...


Arsenios

[Mat 7:21-23 NIV] 21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

[Mat 23:23-28 NIV] 23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. 25 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean. 27 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

[Pro 14:12 NIV] 12 There is a way that appears to be right, but in the end it leads to death.

I believe that one can turn from socially unacceptable sins (like stealing and murder) to socially acceptable sins (like hypocracy and moral legalism) without ever turning towards God ... and it profits a man nothing.

 

[Arsenios]

I believe that one can turn from socially unacceptable sins (like stealing and murder)
to socially acceptable sins (like hypocracy and moral legalism)
without ever turning towards God ...
and it profits a man nothing.

I do too...

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

You have accurately depicted the difference...

You cannot turn to a God in Whom you do not believe, and that believing takes a lot of forms...

Yet repentance is FROM sin, and not TOWARD God...

How do you REPENT TOWARD GOD??

Verse 9 tells us. The Thessalonians turned to God...from idols. THAT is repentance toward God. They made a 180 degree turn (repentance).

1 Thessalonians 1:2-10
We give thanks to God always for all of you, constantlymentioning you in our prayers, remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ. For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake. And you became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you received the word in much affliction, with the joy of the Holy Spirit, so that you became an example to all the believers in Macedonia and in Achaia. For not only has the word of the Lord sounded forth from you in Macedonia and Achaia, but your faith in God has gone forth everywhere, so that we need not say anything. For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you, and
how you turned to God from idols
to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

 

[Josiah]

There are two very different words in Greek (as Arsenios might know).... one means to feel sorrow (which of course even your dog can have) the other means to make an about face. Repentance is not simply feeling bad for what self did, said, felt (or the lack thereof). Such has NOTHING to do with justification (or sanctification).


I have difficulty even imagining a DEAD, atheistic, enemy of God who passionately holds that God doesn't even exist... or is wise or that we are responsible to anything supernatural.... nonetheless holding that self violated the WISE morality of GOD..... feeling remorse for such..... looking to Christ for mercy and forgiveness..... looking to the Holy Spirit in them for direction and strength.... dedicating themselves to walk in the way of the Lord.




.

 

[Arsenios]

Verse 9 tells us. The Thessalonians turned to God...from idols. THAT is repentance toward God. They made a 180 degree turn (repentance).

1 Thessalonians 1:2-10
We give thanks to God always for all of you, constantlymentioning you in our prayers, remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ. For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake. And you became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you received the word in much affliction, with the joy of the Holy Spirit, so that you became an example to all the believers in Macedonia and in Achaia. For not only has the word of the Lord sounded forth from you in Macedonia and Achaia, but your faith in God has gone forth everywhere, so that we need not say anything. For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you, and
how you turned to God from idols
to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Turning from idols is repentance...

Turning to God is the Faith...

We are Called to repentance by God...

We are Justified in the Faith of Christ by God in Baptism INTO Christ...

We are Glorified by God in the workings of the Holy Spirit...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

There are two very different words in Greek (as Arsenios might know)....
.

I only know metanoia - What is the other one?


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

There are two very different words in Greek (as Arsenios might know).... one means to feel sorrow
(which of course even your dog can have) the other means to make an about face.
Repentance is not simply feeling bad for what self did, said, felt (or the lack thereof).
Such has NOTHING to do with justification (or sanctification).

Metanoia does...

Without it there is no Justification...

I have difficulty even imagining a DEAD, atheistic, enemy of God who passionately holds that God doesn't even exist... or is wise or that we are responsible to anything supernatural.... nonetheless holding that self violated the WISE morality of GOD..... feeling remorse for such..... looking to Christ for mercy and forgiveness..... looking to the Holy Spirit in them for direction and strength.... dedicating themselves to walk in the way of the Lord.

Justification has nothing to do with your imagination...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Verse 9 tells us.
The Thessalonians turned to God...from idols.
THAT is repentance toward God.
They made a 180 degree turn (repentance).

Yes, they turned 180 degrees FROM idols...

You CANNOT turn 180 degrees toward God...

God is not 180 degrees from idols...

Nor 179 degrees...

Nor 183...

Had they repented from God, they would have likewise have turned away from Him...

To REPENT means to TURN AWAY FROM...

It does not mean to turn toward...

Even though it is true that in response to the Call of God, we do turn towards God IN repentance...

I ran into this argument on another forum - eg We REPENT TOWARD God...

Look - When you are enthralled with idols, you have to turn from them in order that you even CAN turn toward God...

And the Call of God gives you that boost, but it is not free sledding from there on out...

You will be tested by the idols God turned you from...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Turning from idols is repentance...

Turning to God is the Faith...

We are Called to repentance by God...

We are Justified in the Faith of Christ by God in Baptism INTO Christ...

We are Glorified by God in the workings of the Holy Spirit...


Arsenios

The entire 180 is repentance that is caused by faith. Without faith, you cannot repent.

 

[Wilhemena]

In the Jewish tradition, repentance is called teshuvah, a Hebrew word translated as “returning.”

 

[Josiah]

In the Jewish tradition, repentance is called teshuvah, a Hebrew word translated as “returning.”

It seems to me that would require one "knowing" God. And that's something the unregenerate atheist does not.

And it seems to me that that would please God. And God says it is impossible to please God apart from faith.




.

 

[Lamb]

In the Jewish tradition, repentance is called teshuvah, a Hebrew word translated as “returning.”

:thumbsup:

Since it means "returning" we have to assume then that could only be returning to God.