What is God's role in salvation?

[Josiah]

God's role is everything

Which makes Jesus the Savior

except for our response of truly repentant faith, that necessarily must come from us

... thus the "NECESSARY" thing, the point on which everything hinges, is self. Which makes self the Savior.


I respectfully disagree. I hold that Jesus is the Savior and not self. I even reject that Jesus is PART Savior (the part that actually doesn't save anyone) and that self is PART Savior (the part that actually matters).




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[Lamb]

God's role is everything except for our response of truly repentant faith, that necessarily must come from us, that Jesus Christ is our Lord, who we listen to, and follow obediently. Those of us who respond like this are sealed and have security of everlasting life, in Christ, being restored to God.

So salvation is not by grace through faith then according to what you believe?

Faith is a gift from God. If we have faith we have salvation. Security is completely because of Jesus and nothing from us, otherwise Jesus is not 100% the Savior.

 

[Josiah]

So salvation is not by grace through faith then according to what you believe?

Faith is a gift from God. If we have faith we have salvation. Security is completely because of Jesus and nothing from us, otherwise Jesus is not 100% the Savior.

Lamm

FredV8

I sincerely hope this helps....
(although it's probably too long; doubt any will read it)


In spite of what seems, I honestly don't have a huge "beef" with the Arminianists (who sadly have infested modern "Evangelicalism" something terrible, like a cancer that's metastasizing, lol). I honestly think MOST of them are not CONSCIENCELY Pelagian synergists, they are (typically) not heretical synerists, just people who (like the Calvinists they fight with) insist on making God see things their way, in filling in "gaps" they can't accept, guilty more of saying too much than anything.

The Bible clearly teaches that salvation is of God. And if it is of God then it's not of self.
The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus is the Savior. And if Jesus is the Savior than self is not.
ALL CHRISTIANITY hinges on this...
ALL CHRISTIANITY stands or falls on this point....
Is Jesus the Savior or not?
Does the fallen, dead, atheistic enemy of God save himself or does Jesus save him?
Is it by Jesus' works or by those of the dead, unregenerate sinner? Whose?
Christianity stands or falls on the "answer."

All other religions agree that man is in deep _______. (Actually, Hinduism and Sihkism stress this more than Christianity does). But none of them have a Savior because none of them holds we need one. What we need is the POSSIBILITY (an open door... a path....), a divine OFFER extended to us, divine HELP, and sufficient time (even if that's a million life times). But the divine will do HIS PART (securing the possibility, extending the offer, granting the help, giving us all the time we need) but we have to do our part. It's a synergistic "I'll scratch your back IF you scratch mine." No need for a Savior because there's no need for salvation - just a need for the possibility of salvation, the offer, the help and time. This is the soteriology of all NON-CHRISTIAN religions. Note it's NON-CHRISTIAN soteriology.

A Hindu (who got his BA and PhD in England and whose wife is Christian) explained to to me this way: Christianity is like this: A kitten is in grave danger. The mother comes, picks up with kitten in her mouth, and takes it to safety. Every other religion is like this: A baby monkey is in grave danger. The mother comes, instructs the baby to grab on, and the baby is saved because she adequately held on.


Here's Christianity's soteriology: Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. As ONE inseparable teaching, and all as the act of God. There is no salvation without every aspect of that ONE truth, and God does all of that (or He does not save, He is not the one who brings salvation, He saves no one). Thing is: Faith clearly is a response! Over and over, the DEAD are called to respond, called to faith. Here's the mistake the Arminianist synergist makes: The response of faith is what enlivens. This is absurd on the face of it; the dead can't do anything, there is no good work (like properly responding) apart from faith so faith can't come before faith. Think of Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead.... Jesus CALLED him out of the tome... and he did. But was it DEAD Lazarus' response that made him come to life OR did Jesus give him life and Lazarus obeying the call was a response to that? Of course, there are ALL those MANY verses about "you did not choose Me but I choose you..... no one can even say 'Jesus is Lord' unless the Holy Spirit so enables... faith is the gift of God lest any can boast.... and so many more. Faith is not a product of the dead, atheistic, sinner - it is the gift of God. Coming to faith is not a good work of the dead that God rewards with salvation. It is the gift of God.

Now this creates a problem for those who reject the possibility that God is smarter than self, that God knows more about this stuff than self does, who believe our job is to correct God rather than to trust God. Since not all are saved then 1) God must want most people to fry in hell and gets off on that (the Calvinist) OR 2) God doesn't actually save anyone but rather enables and offers it to everyone but the dead sinner's gotta do X, Y and Z in order to save himself (all non-Christian religions actually have it right). Both have a certain "logic" to them but they are wrong, they are unbiblical, they are unchristian. Why aren't all saved? It's a question the Bible never answers (beyond the point that not all have faith) because the Bible is not interested in our philosophy or logic, the Bible is busy calling on us to LOVE, to TEACH, to REACH, to do the work of an evangelist - not ask God questions and then tell Him what the correct answer is (even though God over and over and over and over teaches the opposite). My doctrine teacher: "Rare is the heresy caused by saying too little, many are the heresies of those who insist on answering their own questions and demand God must agree - even when God says He does not." I think it was John Wesley (the founder of Methodism) who said, "We must be bold where Scripture is bold and silent where Scripture is silent and the second part is by far harder for man to do."


Well, I tried.


A blessed Holy Week...




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[FredVB]

Which makes Jesus the Savior

except for our response of truly repentant faith, that necessarily must come from us

... thus the "NECESSARY" thing, the point on which everything hinges, is self. Which makes self the Savior.
I respectfully disagree. I hold that Jesus is the Savior and not self. I even reject that Jesus is PART Savior (the part that actually doesn't save anyone) and that self is PART Savior (the part that actually matters).

I see, but that is actually misrepresenting what response to God's work is. Faith, though enabled by God, is needed from us. Faith is not the work this misrepresentation shows that it is. Faith is contrasted with works in the Bible. And God does tell us, and people generally, to choose. That is not meaningless, God does want us to choose.

So salvation is not by grace through faith then according to what you believe?
Faith is a gift from God. If we have faith we have salvation. Security is completely because of Jesus and nothing from us, otherwise Jesus is not 100% the Savior.

How did you get that? Of course God's work, with what was done from Christ, is God's grace for us, and that is through our faith. And God enables that. I don't contradict that.

With essential faith, we have salvation from God's work, not even the faith which is essential accomplishes the salvation, it most certainly is God's work.

Lamm
FredV8
I sincerely hope this helps....
(although it's probably too long; doubt any will read it)
In spite of what seems, I honestly don't have a huge "beef" with the Arminianists (who sadly have infested modern "Evangelicalism" something terrible, like a cancer that's metastasizing, lol). I honestly think MOST of them are not CONSCIENCELY Pelagian synergists, they are (typically) not heretical synerists, just people who (like the Calvinists they fight with) insist on making God see things their way, in filling in "gaps" they can't accept, guilty more of saying too much than anything.
The Bible clearly teaches that salvation is of God. And if it is of God then it's not of self.
The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus is the Savior. And if Jesus is the Savior than self is not.
ALL CHRISTIANITY hinges on this...
ALL CHRISTIANITY stands or falls on this point....
Is Jesus the Savior or not?
Does the fallen, dead, atheistic enemy of God save himself or does Jesus save him?
Is it by Jesus' works or by those of the dead, unregenerate sinner? Whose?
Christianity stands or falls on the "answer."
All other religions agree that man is in deep _______. (Actually, Hinduism and Sihkism stress this more than Christianity does). But none of them have a Savior because none of them holds we need one. What we need is the POSSIBILITY (an open door... a path....), a divine OFFER extended to us, divine HELP, and sufficient time (even if that's a million life times). But the divine will do HIS PART (securing the possibility, extending the offer, granting the help, giving us all the time we need) but we have to do our part. It's a synergistic "I'll scratch your back IF you scratch mine." No need for a Savior because there's no need for salvation - just a need for the possibility of salvation, the offer, the help and time. This is the soteriology of all NON-CHRISTIAN religions. Note it's NON-CHRISTIAN soteriology.
A Hindu (who got his BA and PhD in England and whose wife is Christian) explained to to me this way: Christianity is like this: A kitten is in grave danger. The mother comes, picks up with kitten in her mouth, and takes it to safety. Every other religion is like this: A baby monkey is in grave danger. The mother comes, instructs the baby to grab on, and the baby is saved because she adequately held on.
Here's Christianity's soteriology: Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. As ONE inseparable teaching, and all as the act of God. There is no salvation without every aspect of that ONE truth, and God does all of that (or He does not save, He is not the one who brings salvation, He saves no one). Thing is: Faith clearly is a response! Over and over, the DEAD are called to respond, called to faith. Here's the mistake the Arminianist synergist makes: The response of faith is what enlivens. This is absurd on the face of it; the dead can't do anything, there is no good work (like properly responding) apart from faith so faith can't come before faith. Think of Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead.... Jesus CALLED him out of the tome... and he did. But was it DEAD Lazarus' response that made him come to life OR did Jesus give him life and Lazarus obeying the call was a response to that? Of course, there are ALL those MANY verses about "you did not choose Me but I choose you..... no one can even say 'Jesus is Lord' unless the Holy Spirit so enables... faith is the gift of God lest any can boast.... and so many more. Faith is not a product of the dead, atheistic, sinner - it is the gift of God. Coming to faith is not a good work of the dead that God rewards with salvation. It is the gift of God.
Now this creates a problem for those who reject the possibility that God is smarter than self, that God knows more about this stuff than self does, who believe our job is to correct God rather than to trust God. Since not all are saved then 1) God must want most people to fry in hell and gets off on that (the Calvinist) OR 2) God doesn't actually save anyone but rather enables and offers it to everyone but the dead sinner's gotta do X, Y and Z in order to save himself (all non-Christian religions actually have it right). Both have a certain "logic" to them but they are wrong, they are unbiblical, they are unchristian. Why aren't all saved? It's a question the Bible never answers (beyond the point that not all have faith) because the Bible is not interested in our philosophy or logic, the Bible is busy calling on us to LOVE, to TEACH, to REACH, to do the work of an evangelist - not ask God questions and then tell Him what the correct answer is (even though God over and over and over and over teaches the opposite). My doctrine teacher: "Rare is the heresy caused by saying too little, many are the heresies of those who insist on answering their own questions and demand God must agree - even when God says He does not." I think it was John Wesley (the founder of Methodism) who said, "We must be bold where Scripture is bold and silent where Scripture is silent and the second part is by far harder for man to do."
Well, I tried.

Well, thanks for trying. But the position of our faith needed for that is really misrepresented with saying it means Jesus Christ is not the Savior. It just isn't that way. Certainly Christ is the Savior, and our salvation is the work of God, not of ourselves. We are certainly called to respond, still, and live accordingly, as God enables. All people everywhere are commanded to repent, Acts 17:30.

 

[Lamb]

I see, but that is actually misrepresenting what response to God's work is. Faith, though enabled by God, is needed from us. Faith is not the work this misrepresentation shows that it is. Faith is contrasted with works in the Bible. And God does tell us, and people generally, to choose. That is not meaningless, God does want us to choose.



How did you get that? Of course God's work, with what was done from Christ, is God's grace for us, and that is through our faith. And God enables that. I don't contradict that.

With essential faith, we have salvation from God's work, not even the faith which is essential accomplishes the salvation, it most certainly is God's work.



Well, thanks for trying. But the position of our faith needed for that is really misrepresented with saying it means Jesus Christ is not the Savior. It just isn't that way. Certainly Christ is the Savior, and our salvation is the work of God, not of ourselves. We are certainly called to respond, still, and live accordingly, as God enables. All people everywhere are commanded to repent, Acts 17:30.

Faith is the gift from God. It's not something we can choose to receive since it's a gift from Him that He freely gives us according to His will.

Responding to the gift of salvation is just that...a response. It does not earn anything more than what God has already freely given by His grace. Our living by faith does not add to the salvation given freely by God's grace. Our repentance does not earn what is freely given by His grace.

 

[RichWh1]

The words grace and gift are the same word in the Greek. Charis is word ( χαρις)
We are saved by grace through faith; the question is: which came first grace or faith?
Our decision to believe is the gift of God so it is possible that they come at the same time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Lamb]

The words grace and gift are the same word in the Greek. Charis is word ( χαρις)
We are saved by grace through faith; the question is: which came first grace or faith?
Our decision to believe is the gift of God so it is possible that they come at the same time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

God's grace came before you were born in the promise of the Savior. God's grace came before you were born when Jesus died on the cross for the forgiveness of your sins. Your faith clings to the Savior who died for your sins.

Whenever we discuss salvation as Christians we MUST discuss the cross and forgiveness of sins. If we don't then we aren't speaking the Gospel at all.

 

[Josiah]

I see, but that is actually misrepresenting what response to God's work is. Faith, though enabled by God, is needed from us. Faith is not the work this misrepresentation shows that it is. Faith is contrasted with works in the Bible. And God does tell us, and people generally, to choose. That is not meaningless, God does want us to choose.

Yes, we choose. But that is God's work.

Consider Jesus rising Lazarus from the dead.... Lazarus was DEAD (as spiritually all unbelieving, unregenerate people are, the Bible insists). DEAD. Deader than a door nail. Stinking dead. And what can dead people do? Not much.... But Jesus approaches the tomb of the stinking, DEAD, Lazarus who can do NOTHING because he's DEAD. And Jesus says "Come out of there!" And Lazarus comes to life and comes out of there. Now, notice. The text gives 100% of the credit for this to Jesus (and zero to Lazarus), the Bible says that JESUS raised him from the dead, that he came out of that tomb 100% because of what JESUS did. Now, did Jesus call this DEAD man? Yes. Is this (in a sense) a call to choose something (come out of the tomb)? Yes.

The Bible NEVER says that faith is something DEAD people create or choose or perform..... The Bible NEVER says that the DEAD give themselves life and faith. Are DEAD called to faith? Yes! Just as Jesus called Lazarus from the tomb. The 'problem' with crediting the DEAD with giving themselves faith and life is 1) It directly contradicts so many Scriptures that says that faith is the gift of God (not the creation of DEAD, atheistic, unregenerate people), 2) It makes the DEAD the Savior of themeselves since the DEAD thus perform the good work that results in Salvation. 3) This contradicts 2000 years of Christianity and numerous Church Councils which credit the Holy Spirit with faith and live ("And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life..." says the ancient Creed). God is NOT only the OFFERER, He is the SAVIOR. Jesus doesn't simply make it possible for DEAD people to save themselves, He saves them.

Now, is there a mystery here? Can we completely understand HOW exactly God does all this? No. But this much is certain: DEAD don't do anything. The DEAD don't give themselves faith and life. God certainly uses faith, the faith He gives

How did you get that? Of course God's work, with what was done from Christ, is God's grace for us, and that is through our faith. And God enables that. I don't contradict that. With essential faith, we have salvation from God's work, not even the faith which is essential accomplishes the salvation, it most certainly is God's work.

Yup.




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[FredVB]

I see, but that is actually misrepresenting what response to God's work is. Faith, though enabled by God, is needed from us. Faith is not the work this misrepresentation shows that it is. Faith is contrasted with works in the Bible. And God does tell us, and people generally, to choose. That is not meaningless, God does want us to choose.

Of course God's work, with what was done from Christ, is God's grace for us, and that is through our faith. And God enables that. I don't contradict that.

With essential faith, we have salvation from God's work, not even the faith which is essential accomplishes the salvation, it most certainly is God's work.

But the position of our faith needed for that is really misrepresented with saying it means Jesus Christ is not the Savior. It just isn't that way. Certainly Christ is the Savior, and our salvation is the work of God, not of ourselves. We are certainly called to respond, still, and live accordingly, as God enables. All people everywhere are commanded to repent, Acts 17:30.

Faith is the gift from God. It's not something we can choose to receive since it's a gift from Him that He freely gives us according to His will.

Responding to the gift of salvation is just that...a response. It does not earn anything more than what God has already freely given by His grace. Our living by faith does not add to the salvation given freely by God's grace. Our repentance does not earn what is freely given by His grace.

Sure, faith we have is a gift, I have not said otherwise anywhere. We could not continue with faith, which we do, otherwise. Scriptures show this. Scriptures also show, which I would not disagree with, that we would respond, as we are called to do. All are commanded to repent, yet certainly, not all do. So God's call is not irresistible, there is response from us needed. Scriptures show this, so this is not contrary to scriptures. No, our response, our faith, our repentance, while all needed, do not earn anything, or work in any way for salvation, nothing from us does, but God chooses us with that, as God says.

Yes, we choose. But that is God's work.

Consider Jesus rising Lazarus from the dead.... Lazarus was DEAD (as spiritually all unbelieving, unregenerate people are, the Bible insists). DEAD. Deader than a door nail. Stinking dead. And what can dead people do? Not much.... But Jesus approaches the tomb of the stinking, DEAD, Lazarus who can do NOTHING because he's DEAD. And Jesus says "Come out of there!" And Lazarus comes to life and comes out of there. Now, notice. The text gives 100% of the credit for this to Jesus (and zero to Lazarus), the Bible says that JESUS raised him from the dead, that he came out of that tomb 100% because of what JESUS did. Now, did Jesus call this DEAD man? Yes. Is this (in a sense) a call to choose something (come out of the tomb)? Yes.

The Bible NEVER says that faith is something DEAD people create or choose or perform..... The Bible NEVER says that the DEAD give themselves life and faith. Are DEAD called to faith? Yes! Just as Jesus called Lazarus from the tomb. The 'problem' with crediting the DEAD with giving themselves faith and life is 1) It directly contradicts so many Scriptures that says that faith is the gift of God (not the creation of DEAD, atheistic, unregenerate people), 2) It makes the DEAD the Savior of themeselves since the DEAD thus perform the good work that results in Salvation. 3) This contradicts 2000 years of Christianity and numerous Church Councils which credit the Holy Spirit with faith and live ("And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life..." says the ancient Creed). God is NOT only the OFFERER, He is the SAVIOR. Jesus doesn't simply make it possible for DEAD people to save themselves, He saves them.

Now, is there a mystery here? Can we completely understand HOW exactly God does all this? No. But this much is certain: DEAD don't do anything. The DEAD don't give themselves faith and life. God certainly uses faith, the faith He gives.

This is really reading into scriptures about our salvation. Yahweh God is not willing that any would perish, but would have all coming to repentance, with which there would be salvation in Christ, 2 Peter 3, and commands all to repent, Acts 17:30, yet there are those who do not, contrary to God. It is not God keeping them from that or refusing to help them to come to God.

I do think pushing a position of these things on other believers is divisive in unneeded ways.

 

[Particular]

God chose his adopted children before the foundation of the world. There is nothing limiting about God's Sovereign choice.

 

[NewCreation435]

God is always the one who initiates John 6:44. My flesh is hostile to God and doesn't know how to please God.

 

[FredVB]

God chose his adopted children before the foundation of the world. There is nothing limiting about God's Sovereign choice.

God is always the one who initiates John 6:44. My flesh is hostile to God and doesn't know how to please God.

Yahweh who is God is sovereign, all-powerful and all-knowing. Also Yahweh is not willing that any would perish, but would have all come to repentance with which there is salvation in Christ, 2 Peter 3, and commands all people to come to repenting, Acts 17:30. They don't all, though, it is only those who respond, while Yahweh certainly knowing all knows they will. Foreknowing, as God does, is the distinct meaning with the original word of personally knowing those, as God does not personally know others.

 

[Josiah]

Yahweh who is God is sovereign, all-powerful and all-knowing. Also Yahweh is not willing that any would perish, but would have all come to repentance with which there is salvation in Christ, 2 Peter 3, and commands all people to come to repenting, Acts 17:30. They don't all, though, it is only those who respond, while Yahweh certainly knowing all knows they will. Foreknowing, as God does, is the distinct meaning with the original word of personally knowing those, as God does not personally know others.

Foreknowledge has nothing whatsoever to do with causing. I know the sun will rise tomorrow (even when) but I don't cause it.

If Jesus is the Savior then Jesus does the saving. If each self does the saving then each self is the savior (at least of self); yes, even in that denial of the Gospel and of Christianity, God would KNOW in advance who succeeds in saving self but God would have nothing to do with it, He just could bet in advance on who makes it and who does not.



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[Particular]

Yahweh who is God is sovereign, all-powerful and all-knowing. Also Yahweh is not willing that any would perish, but would have all come to repentance with which there is salvation in Christ, 2 Peter 3, and commands all people to come to repenting, Acts 17:30. They don't all, though, it is only those who respond, while Yahweh certainly knowing all knows they will. Foreknowing, as God does, is the distinct meaning with the original word of personally knowing those, as God does not personally know others.

Your understanding of 2 Peter 3 definitely causes you big problems. A Reformed understanding of 2 Peter 3 reconciles the problem you are having.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

 

[FredVB]

Foreknowledge has nothing whatsoever to do with causing. I know the sun will rise tomorrow (even when) but I don't cause it.

I certainly do not say anything different from that. Why would you think that I did?

If Jesus is the Savior then Jesus does the saving. If each self does the saving then each self is the savior (at least of self); yes, even in that denial of the Gospel and of Christianity, God would KNOW in advance who succeeds in saving self but God would have nothing to do with it, He just could bet in advance on who makes it and who does not.

Jesus did what is needed for our salvation. It is God's work. That does not take away our being responsive for that, which is what God is taking into account, as God takes everything into account for fair judgment. You just pervert that calling it a gospel of works, which is terrible confusion. It is really horrible to say some perish with God's judgment with never having a chance for otherwise while others are saved.

Your understanding of 2 Peter 3 definitely causes you big problems.

No it doesn't cause problems, for me or anyone else. Your use of one verse that you think counters my understanding, without considering a number of other verses showing Yahweh God cares for his creatures and does not create any to abandon to perishing, is not anything to pursuade to think differently. God is shown here appointing those who God foreknew. So? I knew that.

 

[Josiah]

Jesus did what is needed for our salvation. It is God's work.

Absolutely! I could not agree more! Then Jesus is the Savior. Jesus saves.

If you add, "BUT you gotta do x,y,z for salvation for happen" you just contradicted and denied that Jesus did it. If our work is needed, then it's not God's work. AT BEST, AT MOST, you have a mixed bag, Jesus is the PART Savior - the part that actually accomplishes nothing... and I'M the PART Savior - the part that actually gets me to heaven, the part that actually is effectual, the part that matters."

I think you need to decide: Is Jesus the Savior or you? Are we samved by Jesus' work or our own? Did Jesus do all that is needed or did He fail to do the very thing on which everything depends?





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[FredVB]

Absolutely! I could not agree more! Then Jesus is the Savior. Jesus saves.

If you add, "BUT you gotta do x,y,z for salvation for happen" you just contradicted and denied that Jesus did it. If our work is needed, then it's not God's work. AT BEST, AT MOST, you have a mixed bag, Jesus is the PART Savior - the part that actually accomplishes nothing... and I'M the PART Savior - the part that actually gets me to heaven, the part that actually is effectual, the part that matters."

I think you need to decide: Is Jesus the Savior or you? Are we saved by Jesus' work or our own? Did Jesus do all that is needed or did He fail to do the very thing on which everything depends?

Well you certainly get the support here, with likes, while I don't. I will still stand my ground. The issue is how you use language. If whatever we think or do, or even believe, is what works mentioned in the Bible mean, then our salvation has nothing to do with us, and you would be right, along with the Calvinist understanding that it is just God's whim that decides some will go to heaven, and some are made to start with to just perish, doomed to Gehenna. But along with seeing Yahweh is fair and is loving, I see that faith is not a work, works are contrasted with faith in the Bible, so faith would not be a work. Just responding to God as we will, which God enables, is not a work, if it was work it would be precious little to what we should really be doing, which repentance should aim us toward.

 

[Josiah]

Just responding to God as we will, which God enables, is not a work, if it was work it would be precious little to what we should really be doing, which repentance should aim us toward.

OBVIOUSLY, the granting of faith to oneself IS a work. And if this work IS the reason why one is justified, then one is justified by self performing this work and the Savior is self.

But if faith is the free gift of God (as the Bible says) then yes it is a work but not our work. And we then are not save by our works and Jesus is the Savior.

See my signature line.



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[Lamb]

Well you certainly get the support here, with likes, while I don't. I will still stand my ground. The issue is how you use language. If whatever we think or do, or even believe, is what works mentioned in the Bible mean, then our salvation has nothing to do with us, and you would be right, along with the Calvinist understanding that it is just God's whim that decides some will go to heaven, and some are made to start with to just perish, doomed to Gehenna. But along with seeing Yahweh is fair and is loving, I see that faith is not a work, works are contrasted with faith in the Bible, so faith would not be a work. Just responding to God as we will, which God enables, is not a work, if it was work it would be precious little to what we should really be doing, which repentance should aim us toward.

Faith is what God gives to us...faith is what the Holy Spirit grows within us and faith points to Jesus who died on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins so that trusting in that truth we will have eternal life. The trusting isn't a work because it can only be done "by grace through faith". That means it's all God's work. Our response can only happen because we've already been given faith to respond. So you see that your response isn't what gives you salvation?

 

[Particular]

I certainly do not say anything different from that. Why would you think that I did?



Jesus did what is needed for our salvation. It is God's work. That does not take away our being responsive for that, which is what God is taking into account, as God takes everything into account for fair judgment. You just pervert that calling it a gospel of works, which is terrible confusion. It is really horrible to say some perish with God's judgment with never having a chance for otherwise while others are saved.



No it doesn't cause problems, for me or anyone else. Your use of one verse that you think counters my understanding, without considering a number of other verses showing Yahweh God cares for his creatures and does not create any to abandon to perishing, is not anything to pursuade to think differently. God is shown here appointing those who God foreknew. So? I knew that.

2 Peter 3:9 does not mean what you interpret. How can I know? The context surrounding that verse tells me that your interpretation is wrong.
I suggest you read all of Peter's letter.
Then look at Acts 13 because there is no contradiction between the two.