What is God's role in salvation?

[Particular]

Faith is what God gives to us...faith is what the Holy Spirit grows within us and faith points to Jesus who died on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins so that trusting in that truth we will have eternal life. The trusting isn't a work because it can only be done "by grace through faith". That means it's all God's work. Our response can only happen because we've already been given faith to respond. So you see that your response isn't what gives you salvation?

So...why do you teach that what God gives, man can destroy?

 

[Lamb]

So...why do you teach that what God gives, man can destroy?

Didn't Adam & Eve turn away from God? Didn't they destroy their perfect harmony they had with Him to try to make themselves into their own gods?

 

[Particular]

Didn't Adam & Eve turn away from God? Didn't they destroy their perfect harmony they had with Him to try to make themselves into their own gods?

Did Adam and Eve go to hell or did God give them faith to believe and then grant them the ability to persevere in faith even unto death?

Adam and Eve were sinless before the fall. Are you saying that Christians who are gifted faith are also sinless, but can fall later?

I still do not understand the Lutheran belief that God gives faith by grace, but humans can reject faith by works. It makes no logical sense and it certainly isn't based in scripture.

 

[Lamb]

Did Adam and Eve go to hell or did God give them faith to believe and then grant them the ability to persevere in faith even unto death?

Adam and Eve were sinless before the fall. Are you saying that Christians who are gifted faith are also sinless, but can fall later?

I still do not understand the Lutheran belief that God gives faith by grace, but humans can reject faith by works. It makes no logical sense and it certainly isn't based in scripture.

God gave them the promise...but they didn't have that at all before they fell. You asked why do I think man can destroy what God gives and Adam and Eve are the classic example. They destroyed their relationship with him. He then made a promise to save them after the fact. The promise of the Savior was not there prior to their fall. They had the absolute perfect life and turned from God. God could have left it at that and humankind would have ended right there. But getting back to your initial question...yes, man can destroy what God gives. Josiah has given you countless other scripture on other threads showing you how man can turn away from faith in Jesus and be damned.

 

[Josiah]

Did Adam and Eve go to hell or did God give them faith to believe and then grant them the ability to persevere in faith even unto death?

Adam and Eve were sinless before the fall. Are you saying that Christians who are gifted faith are also sinless, but can fall later?

I still do not understand the Lutheran belief that God gives faith by grace, but humans can reject faith by works. It makes no logical sense and it certainly isn't based in scripture.

1. Your mistake, my friend, is demanding that God submit to your superior intelligence and your questions. IMO, God is bigger than you (and me and both us of together)... and He is not required to submit to your brain or questions. I hold that theology is normed by what God says, not what you say... and something is True because God says so and not because He gave the right answer to your questions and agrees with you (or me). Friend, this constantly is revealed to be the fundamental difference between us.


2. No one said that faith can be destroyed by our works, you keep changing what is said. Lamm is right on, and her example is stunning since even in a PERFECT world, your claim doesn't hold true. Yes - God GIVES faith. Yes - God GIVES life. Yes, we can commit suicide. Now, a puny, fallen, extremely limited human brain may be able to ask some questions about that, but that does NOT make God wrong and stupid, it does NOT make Scripture errant (and in need of such a human "interpreting" God so that God MEANT the exact opposite of what He so clearly, so boldly, so often states. Frankly, it matters NOT A BIT if you can't wrap your brain around the things of God and that God doesn't answer your questions. Doesn't matter. Not a bit. Not at all.


3. The issue IN THIS THREAD is not the horrible, flat out unbiblical invention of a few radical Calvinists of OSAS. The issue HERE is who is the Savior - Jesus or self. IF you chose to stick to the issue, we'd be in full agreement.





,

 

[Particular]

1. Your mistake, my friend, is demanding that God submit to your superior intelligence and your questions. IMO, God is bigger than you (and me and both us of together)... and He is not required to submit to your brain or questions. I hold that theology is normed by what God says, not what you say... and something is True because God says so and not because He gave the right answer to your questions and agrees with you (or me). Friend, this constantly is revealed to be the fundamental difference between us.


2. No one said that faith can be destroyed by our works, you keep changing what is said. Lamm is right on, and her example is stunning since even in a PERFECT world, your claim doesn't hold true. Yes - God GIVES faith. Yes - God GIVES life. Yes, we can commit suicide. Now, a puny, fallen, extremely limited human brain may be able to ask some questions about that, but that does NOT make God wrong and stupid, it does NOT make Scripture errant (and in need of such a human "interpreting" God so that God MEANT the exact opposite of what He so clearly, so boldly, so often states. Frankly, it matters NOT A BIT if you can't wrap your brain around the things of God and that God doesn't answer your questions. Doesn't matter. Not a bit. Not at all.


3. The issue IN THIS THREAD is not the horrible, flat out unbiblical invention of a few radical Calvinists of OSAS. The issue HERE is who is the Savior - Jesus or self. IF you chose to stick to the issue, we'd be in full agreement.





,

You never actually answered the question, Josiah. You just dipped into your rote reply without thinking about the question.

Where, in my question, do I demand that God submit to my superior intelligence? You have created a strawman and spend the rest of your post arguing with your strawman.

Moreso, in arguing, you essentially declare that God is Lutheran and nothing else.

As a Lutheran, please explain how the God who gifts grace to the ones he saves can choose to ungift faith at a different point of time, which ultimately results in the eternal damnation of a one-time saint. I do not understand this Lutheran doctrine of departed grace and departed justification. I would appreciate your explanation.

 

[Particular]

God gave them the promise...but they didn't have that at all before they fell. You asked why do I think man can destroy what God gives and Adam and Eve are the classic example. They destroyed their relationship with him. He then made a promise to save them after the fact. The promise of the Savior was not there prior to their fall. They had the absolute perfect life and turned from God. God could have left it at that and humankind would have ended right there. But getting back to your initial question...yes, man can destroy what God gives. Josiah has given you countless other scripture on other threads showing you how man can turn away from faith in Jesus and be damned.

After God redeemed Adam and Eve, were they in danger of losing their redemption at any time?

 

[Lamb]

After God redeemed Adam and Eve, were they in danger of losing their redemption at any time?

If God hadn't provided a Savior after they fell then they would not have had redemption. YOUR question asked why do I think man can destroy what God gives. And I answered that clearly.

 

[Josiah]

You essentially declare that God is Lutheran.

Where?

As a Lutheran, please explain how the God who gifts grace to the ones he saves can choose to ungift faith at a different point of time

Try reading post 145.


IF you actually READ things, you'd note what everyone else does, no one ever said God "ungifts" anything. No one. Ever.







.

 

[Particular]

Where?








Try reading post 145.


IF you actually READ things, you'd note what everyone else does, no one ever said God "ungifts" anything. No one. Ever.







.

I read it. You don't answer the question.
The topic is God's role in salvation.
Lutheran's believe that a person can lose their salvation.
What, then, is God's role in salvation by keeping someone unto eternity?

 

[Josiah]

Particular,

All credit for salvation goes to God, all blame for damnation goes to self. That's it. That's all. Nothin' more to discuss on this point.

Read post 145.




.



.

 

[Particular]

Particular,

All credit for salvation goes to God, all blame for damnation goes to self. That's it. That's all. Nothin' more to discuss on this point.

Read post 145.




.



.

You are avoiding the Lutheran teaching that says a saved person can damn himself from the gift of faith God gave him.
It is incumbent upon Lutheran's to prove that assertion via scripture.
Will you actually discuss the matter or just make unsubstantiated blanket statements like your post above?

 

[Josiah]

You are avoiding the Lutheran teaching that says a saved person can damn himself from the gift of faith God gave him.

See post 145.


You need to substantiate your claim of OSAS..... which you have not done, you've only asked endless questions (substantiating NOTHING), noted that what God says can't be right, and noted that when you ask a question, God (or some representative of Him) is mandated to answer it (and in a way that agrees with your position or it is wrong).


Here's what God says about this matter: I know you will insist God did a HORRIBLE job of inspiring Scripture and that He MEANT (over and over) to say the opposite of what He did, but.....



John 15:4-7, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

It is impossible to "not remain" if that one was not first remaining.


Luke 8:13, "They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

"Believed for awhile" NOT "Did NOT believe for awhile"

"FALL AWAY" seems to imply it's possible to fall away, unless Jesus is being very deceptive.


1 Timothy 4:1, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

It is impossible to "abandon" what one did not have.


John 8:31, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really My disciples."

If it's impossible to NOT hold fast to his teaching, then Jesus is holding out a warning that is impossible, essentially deceiving his flock.


Hebrews 8:9, "They did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them"

It's impossible to "not remain" in something they never were in.



Gal. 5:4, "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

It is impossible to "fall away" from something they never had.



Rev. 2:10, "Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.


Matthew 10:22, "He who stands firm to the end will be saved."


Luke 21:19, "By standing firm you will gain life."


Col. 1:23, "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."


Hebrews 10:26, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."


2 Peter 1:8-10, "But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure."


2 Peter 3:17, "Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."


Rev. 3:5, He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white.


Luke 12:8, "He who disowns Me before men will be disowned before the angels of God."






.




.

 

[atpollard]

You need to substantiate your claim of OSAS

[Philippians 1:6 NASB] 6 [For I am] confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
[John 6:44 NASB] 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

The Father begins/draws and the Son WILL/DOES perfect and raise them.

(PS: It is called Perseverance of the Saints, not O.S.A.S. because ... For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. [Rom 8:29-30 NASB] )

 

[Particular]

See post 145.


You need to substantiate your claim of OSAS..... which you have not done, you've only asked endless questions (substantiating NOTHING), noted that what God says can't be right, and noted that when you ask a question, God (or some representative of Him) is mandated to answer it (and in a way that agrees with your position or it is wrong).


Here's what God says about this matter: I know you will insist God did a HORRIBLE job of inspiring Scripture and that He MEANT (over and over) to say the opposite of what He did, but.....



John 15:4-7, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

It is impossible to "not remain" if that one was not first remaining.


Luke 8:13, "They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

"Believed for awhile" NOT "Did NOT believe for awhile"

"FALL AWAY" seems to imply it's possible to fall away, unless Jesus is being very deceptive.


1 Timothy 4:1, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

It is impossible to "abandon" what one did not have.


John 8:31, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really My disciples."

If it's impossible to NOT hold fast to his teaching, then Jesus is holding out a warning that is impossible, essentially deceiving his flock.


Hebrews 8:9, "They did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them"

It's impossible to "not remain" in something they never were in.



Gal. 5:4, "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

It is impossible to "fall away" from something they never had.



Rev. 2:10, "Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.


Matthew 10:22, "He who stands firm to the end will be saved."


Luke 21:19, "By standing firm you will gain life."


Col. 1:23, "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."


Hebrews 10:26, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."


2 Peter 1:8-10, "But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure."


2 Peter 3:17, "Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."


Rev. 3:5, He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white.


Luke 12:8, "He who disowns Me before men will be disowned before the angels of God."






.




.

Context is very important. Prooftexting your presupposition is just poor hermaneutics.

 

[Josiah]

Context is very important.

Right. And you have been asked - over and over and over again - to show WHAT verses around the ones quoted prove God meant to say the opposite of what He so often, so boldly, verbatim states. And all we get is your endless question, none of which substantiates that God "meant" the exact opposite of what He undeniably and so often states.

As I predicted, you would just ignore every one of the many Scriptures that flat-out, clearly, boldly, verbatim contradict the new dogma you parrot. If you don't like what God says, you just insist it MUST "mean" the opposite of what it says cuz God just can't be smart and disagree with you.



.

 

[Particular]

Right. And you have been asked - over and over and over again - to show WHAT verses around the ones quoted prove God meant to say the opposite of what He so often, so boldly, verbatim states. And all we get is your endless question, none of which substantiates that God "meant" the exact opposite of what He undeniably and so often states.

As I predicted, you would just ignore every one of the many Scriptures that flat-out, clearly, boldly, verbatim contradict the new dogma you parrot. If you don't like what God says, you just insist it MUST "mean" the opposite of what it says cuz God just can't be smart and disagree with you.



.

Josiah, you quote one verse or sentence and the say "thus saith the Lord" but you never, ever explain the verse in context. You just leave the verse dangling and think you have done your job.

Now, since loss of faith by human works is a Lutheran teaching, please explain those verses you quoted, in context so I can see how you arrive at the conclusion that God gifts people faith by his choosing, yet after God chooses to give faith, God is unable to keep the person in faith and thus the person can openly reject the gift God chose to give him.
How do you reconcile the passages that tell us that Jesus will never forsake his own sheep, the ones to whom he gave the gift of faith? I would love to read how you personally reconcile these verses.

 

[Josiah]

Now, since loss of faith by human works is a Lutheran teaching, please explain those verses you quoted

The only reason God's words would mandate "explaining" to you is because don't accept them, these many clear, bold, undeniable Scriptures verbatim contradict the new dogma you parrot. Since you won't accept them, you need them "explained away" so that they don't count.



John 15:4-7, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

It is impossible to "not remain" if that one was not first remaining.


Luke 8:13, "They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

"Believed for awhile" NOT "Did NOT believe for awhile"

"FALL AWAY" seems to imply it's possible to fall away, unless Jesus is being very deceptive.


1 Timothy 4:1, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

It is impossible to "abandon" what one did not have.


John 8:31, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really My disciples."

If it's impossible to NOT hold fast to his teaching, then Jesus is holding out a warning that is impossible, essentially deceiving his flock.


Hebrews 8:9, "They did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them"

It's impossible to "not remain" in something they never were in.



Gal. 5:4, "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

It is impossible to "fall away" from something they never had.



Rev. 2:10, "Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.


Matthew 10:22, "He who stands firm to the end will be saved."


Luke 21:19, "By standing firm you will gain life."


Col. 1:23, "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."


Hebrews 10:26, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."


2 Peter 1:8-10, "But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure."


2 Peter 3:17, "Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."


Rev. 3:5, He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white.


and many, many, many, many more!

How do you reconcile the passages that tell us that Jesus will never forsake his own sheep, the ones to whom he gave the gift of faith? I would love to read how you personally reconcile these verses.

I don't. No more than I "reconcile" the verses that say God is one yet three, or that Jesus is both God and man. I hold that what God says is true, I accept all God says.

But then I don't share your mandate that truth cannot exist unless self can completely wrap the puny brain of self around it, totally understand and explain it, and answer all the questions self asks of God but appoints self to answer for Him. This is the fundamental difference between us, and we keep coming to this point: I hold that God is soverign (not self), that God is bigger than me (not the other way around), that what God says "trumps" anything I say (including any sentence I may be able to construct in a grammatically correct manner). We have a very different rubric. I'm quite uncomfortable with the enormous egoism of your approach, this whole concept that God is subject to the thinking, questions and opinions of self. And I don't think we're going to resolve this.



And note, you are not "reconciling" ANYTHING. You simply are believing the verses that agree with you and entirely dismissing the ones that repudiate your view. You dismiss them (absolutely! totally!) by appointing yourself "interpret"the verses so that twist them inside out and upside down until you insist God MEANT the exact opposite of what He clearly, obviously, undeniably stated (cuz He's wrong). You aren't reconciling what God says, you are denying a LOT of what God says.

.

 

[Particular]

The only reason God's words would mandate "explaining" to you is because don't accept them, these many clear, bold, undeniable Scriptures verbatim contradict the new dogma you parrot. Since you won't accept them, you need them "explained away" so that they don't count.



John 15:4-7, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

It is impossible to "not remain" if that one was not first remaining.


Luke 8:13, "They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

"Believed for awhile" NOT "Did NOT believe for awhile"

"FALL AWAY" seems to imply it's possible to fall away, unless Jesus is being very deceptive.


1 Timothy 4:1, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

It is impossible to "abandon" what one did not have.


John 8:31, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really My disciples."

If it's impossible to NOT hold fast to his teaching, then Jesus is holding out a warning that is impossible, essentially deceiving his flock.


Hebrews 8:9, "They did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them"

It's impossible to "not remain" in something they never were in.



Gal. 5:4, "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

It is impossible to "fall away" from something they never had.



Rev. 2:10, "Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.


Matthew 10:22, "He who stands firm to the end will be saved."


Luke 21:19, "By standing firm you will gain life."


Col. 1:23, "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."


Hebrews 10:26, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."


2 Peter 1:8-10, "But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure."


2 Peter 3:17, "Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."


Rev. 3:5, He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white.


Luke 12:8, "He who disowns Me before men will be disowned before the angels of God."








I don't. No more than I "reconcile" the verses that say God is one yet three, or that Jesus is both God and man. I hold that what God says is true, I accept all God says. But then I don't share your mandate that truth cannot exist unless self can completely wrap the puny brain of self around it, totally understand and explain it, and answer all the questions self asks of God but appoints self to answer for Him. This is the fundamental difference between us, and we keep coming to this point: I hold that God is soverign (not self), that God is bigger than me (not the other way around), that what God says "trumps" anything I say (including any sentence I may be able to construct in a grammatically correct manner). We have a very different rubric. I'm quite uncomfortable with the enormous egoism of your approach, this whole concept that God is subject to the thinking, questions and opinions of self. And I don't think we're going to resolve this.





.

False. The only reason you avoid context is because you know you have no argument.

 

[FredVB]

OBVIOUSLY, the granting of faith to oneself IS a work. And if this work IS the reason why one is justified, then one is justified by self performing this work and the Savior is self.

But if faith is the free gift of God (as the Bible says) then yes it is a work but not our work. And we then are not save by our works and Jesus is the Savior.

See my signature line.

No, not one single Bible verse determines in any way however remotely that responding repentantly having faith is at all a work. It actually accomplishes nothing itself, change of works should happen afterward from that.

Faith is what God gives to us...faith is what the Holy Spirit grows within us and faith points to Jesus who died on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins so that trusting in that truth we will have eternal life. The trusting isn't a work because it can only be done "by grace through faith". That means it's all God's work. Our response can only happen because we've already been given faith to respond. So you see that your response isn't what gives you salvation?

So if we do not respond, for having that, we are logically not accountable, it is all up to God about who would go to Heaven and who would perish. Again, that is not being said in the Bible, and the unequal treatment of any by us would be injustice and damnable.

2 Peter 3:9 does not mean what you interpret. How can I know? The context surrounding that verse tells me that your interpretation is wrong.
I suggest you read all of Peter's letter.
Then look at Acts 13 because there is no contradiction between the two.

Why do all who argue with me about that position tell me to go read that chapter, as if I skipped in the many many times I read through the Bible? And each time they say so I go back to it again. There is nothing there determining your position. I even wrote up what the chapter says, in my own words, to respond to their positions, verse by verse. They only just dismiss it. So I dismiss your position. You are wrong.

If you have a case, go ahead and show the relevant verses, that is a challenge.