Christ Gave Himself Up Only For the Church

[MennoSota]

Josiah does not believe the will is free but instead bound to sin. That's not semi-pelagian or Arminian. Lutherans do not believe man cooperates or decides for their salvation. Please understand this.

I will show you exactly what Josiah says he believes. Observe the contradiction and synergist teaching.

Yes. That's true as concerns Man in his natural state. There has been no contradiction.


That is not only true but very fundamental in Lutheran theology.

Indeed, Josiah has revealed the great dilemma and massive contradiction that makes no sense at all.

1) It is TRUE that not all are saved, atonement does not ultimately embrace everyone.

Indeed, Limited atonement

2) But this is not because of the absence of Christ but the absence of faith.

Indeed, Humans cannot conjure up faith.

3) The "reason" is not that Christ offers nothing to most people, it's that most people trust nothing that is offered.

Humans can conjure up faith. Notice the contradiction with the second statement.

4) Christ died for all (as the Bible repeatedly, boldly states).... it's just that not all trust/rely/embrace Him.

Unlimited Atonement, which contradicts the first statement. Followed by humans conjuring up their own faith, which contradicts the second statement.

 

[Albion]

Lets just say that you couldn't follow what Josiah was explaining...and let it go at that.

 

[Josiah]

I will show you exactly what Josiah says he believes. Observe the contradiction and synergist teaching.Indeed, Josiah has revealed the great dilemma and massive contradiction that makes no sense at all.

You didn't indicate ANYTHING that I said - you have simply ignored and dodged it.

Indeed, Limited atonement

No. The defining dogma of a few hyper-Calvinists is NOT that the EFFECTS of atonement is limited by faith, it's that the actual ATONEMENT is limited. You are dodging the very dogma you are claiming to defend. As you noted earlier and in the title of the thread, the new dogma invented by these latter-day hyper-Calvinists is that Christ died ONLY for a few, ONLY for the church, ONLY for the elect, ONLY for a minority. It's NOT that only a minority end up benefiting from it. Perhaps you are "caught" and so are trying to change the subject and withdraw from the dogma - realizing what we all do: You have NOTHING in Scripture or Tradiiton to support this defining dogma of hyper-Calvinists and that it is contradicted by a lot of Scriptures.

Indeed, Humans cannot conjure up faith.

Diversion,.


This thread and this invented dogma of a few hyper-Calvinists is not about faith, it's about Christ. It's not that faith is limited (in terms of those who have it) but that atonement is limited. The dogma is NOT "God doesn't give faith to all" (a point most Christians would agree with) but, as you previously noted and highlighted in the title of your thread, that Christ did not die for all, that God's grace, mercy, love, salvation, Savior are for only a FEW and never existed for MOST... there is a short list of those for whom God's grace, love, mercy exist.... a short list of those for whom Christ died.... a short list of those for whom the Gospel is available, for whom such EXISTS.


As you have so forcefully proved, you have NOTHING - not one verse - that remotely teaches this. You must rely on one of the most absurd, illogical arguments I've ever encounters: That is something is said to be true of one, ERGO it dogmatically cannot be true for any other. So if I said, "I love my wife" this is dogmatic proof I do not love God. ALL you have is a few verses where it is noted Christ died for someone - and you insist, "ERGO not for all." Amazing.... hyper-Calvinists talk SO much of logic and yet are often amazingly, laughably illogical.


And several of us have presented MANY Scriptures that directly contradict the new invention of a few hyper-Calvinists, this "L" of TULIP. And you just ignore them (which is of course all you CAN do). You... you insist dogmas must be taught in Scripture - just totally ignore where Scripture over and over again directly contradicts the dogma you are claiming to defend.



Yes, the effect of Christ's work is not universal. as Scripture says. But these hyper-Calvinists put the reason on CHRIST - that He didn't die for all, and thus for most, faith is irrelevant since for most, there's nothing for faith to apprehend. Their disregard for Scripture and Tradition lead them to a very unbiblical (and horrible!) dogma. But what the Bible says (and all Christians before these hyper-Calvinists invented this horror and probably 99% since) is that the reason not all are saved is because not all have faith - NOT because Christ didn't die for them and thus it doesn't matter if they have faith since for most faith is irrelevant, grasping just emptiness and void.



Your charge that I (of all people! Can you hear the laughter?) MUST be a synergistic, Pelagian because I (like nearly all Calvinists) deny this obviously unbiblical horrible invention, simply reveals your empty hand. You have nothing. NOTHING from Scripture... nothing from Tradition.... nothing from the Councils.... nothing that teaches what you do, and NOTHING that contradicts all those Scriptures that teaches the opposite of what you do. All you have is personal flames and probably the most absurd, silliest substitute for logic I've seen. Friend, there's a reason this is the least accepted of the TULIP points... one NOW called "hyper" by Calvinists.... but yup, it IS the foundation of the whole thing.






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[MennoSota]

You didn't indicate ANYTHING that I said - you have simply ignored and dodged it.






No. The defining dogma of a few hyper-Calvinists is NOT that the EFFECTS of atonement is limited by faith, it's that the actual ATONEMENT is limited. You are dodging the very dogma you are claiming to defend. As you noted earlier and in the title of the thread, the new dogma invented by these latter-day hyper-Calvinists is that Christ died ONLY for a few, ONLY for the church, ONLY for the elect, ONLY for a minority. It's NOT that only a minority end up benefiting from it. Perhaps you are "caught" and so are trying to change the subject and withdraw from the dogma - realizing what we all do: You have NOTHING in Scripture or Tradiiton to support this defining dogma of hyper-Calvinists and that it is contradicted by a lot of Scriptures.






Diversion,.


This thread and this invented dogma of a few hyper-Calvinists is not about faith, it's about Christ. It's not that faith is limited (in terms of those who have it) but that atonement is limited. The dogma is NOT "God doesn't give faith to all" (a point most Christians would agree with) but, as you previously noted and highlighted in the title of your thread, that Christ did not die for all, that God's grace, mercy, love, salvation, Savior are for only a FEW and never existed for MOST... there is a short list of those for whom God's grace, love, mercy exist.... a short list of those for whom Christ died.... a short list of those for whom the Gospel is available, for whom such EXISTS.


As you have so forcefully proved, you have NOTHING - not one verse - that remotely teaches this. You must rely on one of the most absurd, illogical arguments I've ever encounters: That is something is said to be true of one, ERGO it dogmatically cannot be true for any other. So if I said, "I love my wife" this is dogmatic proof I do not love God. ALL you have is a few verses where it is noted Christ died for someone - and you insist, "ERGO not for all." Amazing.... hyper-Calvinists talk SO much of logic and yet are often amazingly, laughably illogical.


And several of us have presented MANY Scriptures that directly contradict the new invention of a few hyper-Calvinists, this "L" of TULIP. And you just ignore them (which is of course all you CAN do). You... you insist dogmas must be taught in Scripture - just totally ignore where Scripture over and over again directly contradicts the dogma you are claiming to defend.



Yes, the effect of Christ's work is not universal. as Scripture says. But these hyper-Calvinists put the reason on CHRIST - that He didn't die for all, and thus for most, faith is irrelevant since for most, there's nothing for faith to apprehend. Their disregard for Scripture and Tradition lead them to a very unbiblical (and horrible!) dogma. But what the Bible says (and all Christians before these hyper-Calvinists invented this horror and probably 99% since) is that the reason not all are saved is because not all have faith - NOT because Christ didn't die for them and thus it doesn't matter if they have faith since for most faith is irrelevant, grasping just emptiness and void.



Your charge that I (of all people! Can you hear the laughter?) MUST be a synergistic, Pelagian because I (like nearly all Calvinists) deny this obviously unbiblical horrible invention, simply reveals your empty hand. You have nothing. NOTHING from Scripture... nothing from Tradition.... nothing from the Councils.... nothing that teaches what you do, and NOTHING that contradicts all those Scriptures that teaches the opposite of what you do. All you have is personal flames and probably the most absurd, silliest substitute for logic I've seen. Friend, there's a reason this is the least accepted of the TULIP points... one NOW called "hyper" by Calvinists.... but yup, it IS the foundation of the whole thing.






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Are you not seeing the four points that I broke down from your own words? I have posted them at least 3 times now. Can you not see the contradictions in your own statement? I will not recopy them yet a fourth time. Until you go, point-by-point, through those four areas in which you display contradiction, you are just dodging. We cannot go any farther in this discussion until you grasp the contradictions in that specific post which you wrote.
Just let me know whether you will choose to address the points or not.
The ultimate fact is that you are presently holding a syncretist/Arminian position of salvation. This is clearly evident in your own writing regardless of whether you can actually see it or not.
I recall a time in my late teens/early 20s when I went round and round with a Calvinist...arguing the same position you presently argue. I literally read Ephesians 2:1-10 and missed what they shared. I twisted the entire passage in order to get my choice involved. To their credit, they tried. I was just not seeing. I look at your responses here and I see my young, incapacity to see, in your responses. This is no rip on you. This is just an observation from my own experience.
You have journeyed away from radical syncretism in the Roman church. You have not yet journeyed to embrace God's full Sovereignty over all aspects of your person. I trust, as you read scripture and God reveals His Sovereignty to you, you will start to see.
Thomas Schreiner and John Piper took time with me and God did the rest.
The passages in scripture, which I have shared, point to God's love for His church and atonement only for His church.

 

[MennoSota]

As for Jesus atonement, [MENTION=13]Josiah[/MENTION], it is limited to those whom He has redeemed. This is the elect.
This position is not radical. This position is biblical. I have pointed out every "universal atonement" verse you used and explained how the verse does not refer to all humanity having their own sins atoned for.
All humanity does not have their sins atoned for. If they did, they would all be redeemed.
Only those to whom God gives faith, have their sins atoned for. God chooses whom to give faith. Humans do not choose to have faith. Therefore, since God is the gifter/giver of faith, His atonement is limited to those who have faith.
There cannot be an unlimited atonement, yet a limited number of faithful. Such a position would mean that Jesus blood was spilled in vain for the faithless. Do you believe Jesus sacrifice was in vain for the vast majority of humanity, Josiah?

 

[Josiah]

As for Jesus atonement, it is limited to those whom He has redeemed. This is the elect.

... such is the new radical claim of a few hyper-Calvinists, the "L" of TULIP, which you are claiming to defend.

But you have not offered even one Scripture that remotely teaches this.... and you've just ignored a host of Scriptures that flat-out teach the exact opposite.


Yes, Christ died for "the elect" (no one disputes that) but your whole point is that He died ONLY for the elect. The dogma is not that the effect of the atonement is limited by faith (a position everyone here agrees with - whether or not that faith is seen as from God or self is entirely irrelevant to our discussion HERE), the dogma of Limited ATONEMENT is that the ATONEMENT is limited (not faith), the dogma of a very few hyper-Calvinists (and no one else - ever) is that Christ died ONLY for a few, that God's grace and mercy are available (by faith) ONLY for a minority, that there is a "short list" of persons to whom the Gospel is AVAILABLE to be accessed (whether such is by faith or not is irrelevant, it's only AVAILABLE for some, it only EXISTS for a few).


You have yet to offer ANYTHING from Scripture, from Tradition, from the Councils, indeed from ANYTHING that teaches that Christ died ONLY for the church, the elect, Calvinists. NOTHING to substantiate that the reason not all are saved is because Christ didn't die for them, God doesn't love them. And you have yet to show why the MANY verses the rest of us have offered here are wrong.

All humanity does not have their sins atoned for. If they did, they would all be redeemed.

You have NOTHING..... not anything whatsoever .... to support this radical, new invention of a FEW latter-day hyper-Calvinists, for this "L" in TULIP.... nothing.

Just an absurdly illogical view that if the Bible says something is true in one case, ERGO it must be not true in every other case; your "logic" being that because I love my wife ERGO it is a dogmatic fact that I do not love God. You can find a verse that says Jesus died for X and your whole apologetic is that THEREFORE He did not die for anyone else. This is the only thing from the Bible you've got.

Then you raise this point, which just proves that these hyper-Calvinists have entirely abandoned the Reformation theology of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide, because your entire point here contradicts it. You insist that faith has nothing to do with anything (it doesn't matter to your apologetic whether that faith is God given or self-created because you just ignore it). You bring up this question assuming there is no such thing as faith (self-created or God given, doesn't matter). Friend, by simply rejecting the soteriology of Calvin, by rejecting the Protestant foundation of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide, you thus reject that faith is the variable, that is it FAITH that is not universal, because you simply ignore faith entirely. The variable is not God's grace or Christ's work.... the variable is faith. Christ died for all (as the Bible says), it's just that not all trust/rely/depend/apprehend such.... FAITH is what is not universal, not the work of Christ.

Only those to whom God gives faith, have their sins atoned for

Everyone has already agreed with that. Now, stop trying to change the subject! Stop wesaling out of the dogma and what you've been saying.


You didn't say "God gives faith ONLY to the elect." That I'd agree with. You said Christ DIED only for the elect. Read the title you gave this thread. That's a whole other enchllada. The hyper-Calvinist invention of Limited ATONEMENT is clearly, flat-out contrary to what God has said, it contradicts a LOT of Scripture and is entirely without anything from Scripture, Tradition, the Councils or anything at all until a few later-day hyper-Calvinists abandoned the Reformation Theology of Sola Gratia-Solus Christus - Sola Fide and invented this radical, new, anti-Scripture (and I'd say heretical) dogma, which you have been parroting but evading giving ANY support to.


Friend, the dogma is NOT that the EFFECT of Christ's work is limited BY FAITH, the dogma is that the actual ATONEMENT itself is limited.... which is why it's not called "Limited Faith" but "Limited Atonement." It's why you entitled this thread, "Christ died only some" rather than "God gives faith to only to some." Perhaps rather than admitting the fundamental error (heresy, really) of this part of the TULIP teaching, perhaps you are just weseling and trying to entirely change what you've said and what the dogma is so as to now agree with every other Christian but a very few later-day hyper-Calvinists? If you have realized the error of this "L" invention (as nearly all Calvinists have)... good! Admit it and we can close this thread.



Now, if you, state verse(s) that say that Christ died only for the elect, the church, the minority, the few.... so for most, there is nothing for faith to apprehend because for most, it just ain't there just pure void, emptiness, nothingness.

And show why all the following Scriptures are wrong...


1 John 2:2

Isaiah 53:6

Luke 19:10

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

Hebrews 2:9

John 1:29

1 John 4:14

John 4:42

John 3:14-16 (see with Numbers 21 where the staff is for ALL who look upon it)




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[MennoSota]

... such is the new radical claim of a few hyper-Calvinists, the "L" of TULIP, which you are claiming to defend.

But you have not offered even one Scripture that remotely teaches this.... and you've just ignored a host of Scriptures that flat-out teach the exact opposite.


Yes, Christ died for "the elect" (no one disputes that) but your whole point is that He died ONLY for the elect. The dogma is not that the effect of the atonement is limited by faith (a position everyone here agrees with - whether or not that faith is seen as from God or self is entirely irrelevant to our discussion HERE), the dogma of Limited ATONEMENT is that the ATONEMENT is limited (not faith), the dogma of a very few hyper-Calvinists (and no one else - ever) is that Christ died ONLY for a few, that God's grace and mercy are available (by faith) ONLY for a minority, that there is a "short list" of persons to whom the Gospel is AVAILABLE to be accessed (whether such is by faith or not is irrelevant, it's only AVAILABLE for some, it only EXISTS for a few).


You have yet to offer ANYTHING from Scripture, from Tradition, from the Councils, indeed from ANYTHING that teaches that Christ died ONLY for the church, the elect, Calvinists. NOTHING to substantiate that the reason not all are saved is because Christ didn't die for them, God doesn't love them. And you have yet to show why the MANY verses the rest of us have offered here are wrong.








You have NOTHING..... not anything whatsoever .... to support this radical, new invention of a FEW latter-day hyper-Calvinists, for this "L" in TULIP.... nothing.

Just an absurdly illogical view that if the Bible says something is true in one case, ERGO it must be not true in every other case; your "logic" being that because I love my wife ERGO it is a dogmatic fact that I do not love God. You can find a verse that says Jesus died for X and your whole apologetic is that THEREFORE He did not die for anyone else. This is the only thing from the Bible you've got.

Then you raise this point, which just proves that these hyper-Calvinists have entirely abandoned the Reformation theology of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide, because your entire point here contradicts it. You insist that faith has nothing to do with anything (it doesn't matter to your apologetic whether that faith is God given or self-created because you just ignore it). You bring up this question assuming there is no such thing as faith (self-created or God given, doesn't matter). Friend, by simply rejecting the soteriology of Calvin, by rejecting the Protestant foundation of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide, you thus reject that faith is the variable, that is it FAITH that is not universal, because you simply ignore faith entirely. The variable is not God's grace or Christ's work.... the variable is faith. Christ died for all (as the Bible says), it's just that not all trust/rely/depend/apprehend such.... FAITH is what is not universal, not the work of Christ.







Everyone has already agreed with that. Now, stop trying to change the subject! Stop wesaling out of the dogma and what you've been saying.


You didn't say "God gives faith ONLY to the elect." That I'd agree with. You said Christ DIED only for the elect. Read the title you gave this thread. That's a whole other enchllada. The hyper-Calvinist invention of Limited ATONEMENT is clearly, flat-out contrary to what God has said, it contradicts a LOT of Scripture and is entirely without anything from Scripture, Tradition, the Councils or anything at all until a few later-day hyper-Calvinists abandoned the Reformation Theology of Sola Gratia-Solus Christus - Sola Fide and invented this radical, new, anti-Scripture (and I'd say heretical) dogma, which you have been parroting but evading giving ANY support to.


Friend, the dogma is NOT that the EFFECT of Christ's work is limited BY FAITH, the dogma is that the actual ATONEMENT itself is limited.... which is why it's not called "Limited Faith" but "Limited Atonement." It's why you entitled this thread, "Christ died only some" rather than "God gives faith to only to some." Perhaps rather than admitting the fundamental error (heresy, really) of this part of the TULIP teaching, perhaps you are just weseling and trying to entirely change what you've said and what the dogma is so as to now agree with every other Christian but a very few later-day hyper-Calvinists? If you have realized the error of this "L" invention (as nearly all Calvinists have)... good! Admit it and we can close this thread.



Now, if you, state verse(s) that say that Christ died only for the elect, the church, the minority, the few.... so for most, there is nothing for faith to apprehend because for most, it just ain't there just pure void, emptiness, nothingness.

And show why all the following Scriptures are wrong...


1 John 2:2

Isaiah 53:6

Luke 19:10

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

Hebrews 2:9

John 1:29

1 John 4:14

John 4:42

John 3:14-16 (see with Numbers 21 where the staff is for ALL who look upon it)




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Josiah, is a dead man atoned for without being made alive?
Yes or no.
I am not going to write a book. I simply want your answer.
Is a dead man atoned for without being made alive?

 

[Andrew]

I still pray that God has mercy on non believers, I have always prayed that.
Now again concerning the Tribulation (without the Church) some will be saved, to say that Christ died for the church only is a bit hard to swallow for those that go through the tribulation, maybe Menno should have titled this thread differently, Jesus died for the elect of God (all who believe on him)

 

[MennoSota]

I still pray that God has mercy on non believers, I have always prayed that.
Now again concerning the Tribulation (without the Church) some will be saved, to say that Christ died for the church only is a bit hard to swallow for those that go through the tribulation, maybe Menno should have titled this thread differently, Jesus died for the elect of God (all who believe on him)

Will there be no Christians during times of tribulation, Andrew?
It is very likely, you and I understand the coming return of Messiah differently.
The Church grows strongest in tribulation.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12
The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false,
in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth
but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The implication is that there are believers in tribulation. In Revelation we see many martyrs. God's elect, the church, will be among those who go through tribulation.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Read what he wrote.

How you can read anything Josiah writes and come to the conclusion you have about him is beyond baffling. I may not always agree with him, but one thing he has been is utterly consistent. Also, your mis-characterization of anyone who does not adhere to strict Calvinist view of Election as therefore accepting universalism is equally baffling.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Josiah, is a dead man atoned for without being made alive?
Yes or no.
I am not going to write a book. I simply want your answer.
Is a dead man atoned for without being made alive?

If you've read anything Josiah has written in myriad threads, you'd know the answer

 

[MennoSota]

How you can read anything Josiah writes and come to the conclusion you have about him is beyond baffling. I may not always agree with him, but one thing he has been is utterly consistent. Also, your mis-characterization of anyone who does not adhere to strict Calvinist view of Election as therefore accepting universalism is equally baffling.

I say the same thing back to you. If you cannot see the contradiction in the words I quoted from him, then I can only conclude that you have the same blindness in your eyes. The proof is in what Josiah actually wrote.

 

[MennoSota]

If you've read anything Josiah has written in myriad threads, you'd know the answer

According to Josiah, Jesus atoned for all humanity...including all humans who are dead in their sins. It's just that those dead persons don't believe and that is why they are not forgiven.
If you read the contradiction you'd see the problem with that belief.

 

[Albion]

Have you ever been cleared to do something but you didn't take advantage of it? I have. What's the "contradiction" there?

 

[MoreCoffee]

According to Josiah, Jesus atoned for all humanity...including all humans who are dead in their sins. It's just that those dead persons don't believe and that is why they are not forgiven.
If you read the contradiction you'd see the problem with that belief.

It is what saint John said though. He did say that Christ is the expiation for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 2:2 And he is the expiation for our sins. And not only for our sins, but also for those of the whole world.

 

[Josiah]

According to Josiah, Jesus atoned for all humanity...including all humans who are dead in their sins. It's just that those dead persons don't believe and that is why they are not forgiven.
If you read the contradiction you'd see the problem with that belief.

1. Your flat-out contradiction of what God clearly and often says is YOUR problem.

2. Your inability to find even one verse that states this new invention of a few later-day hyper-Calvinists is YOUR problem.

3. There is no "contradiction" in Scripture - just in your theology on this point. Christ died for all (just as the Bible repeatedly says). Not all are saved because not all have faith, just as all Christians except for a TINY subset of Calvinists know. The Reformation Theology you're rejecting is: Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide, as ONE truth. So, 3 things must be present - God's love/grace/mercy, Christ's atoning work, faith. When all 3 are not present, nor is justification.
but you've abandoned that Reformation theology .

 

[Josiah]

How you can read anything Josiah writes and come to the conclusion you have about him is beyond baffling. I may not always agree with him, but one thing he has been is utterly consistent. Also, your mis-characterization of anyone who does not adhere to strict Calvinist view of Election as therefore accepting universalism is equally baffling.

1. Our friend in the past has always insisted that a teaching MUST be stated as such in Scripture or it's false.. That it CANNOT be at variance with clear Scripture. But note: He has not been able to present any Scripture that says Christ died ONLY for the elect, the church, the few. NOTHING that says the dogma created by these FEW later-day hyper-Calvinists and he desires to defend, the "L" of Tulip.


2. Our friend has been given MANY Scriptures that state the exact opposite of this dogma he desires to defend, God obviously directly contradicting it. He has simply ignored them.


3. His resorting to name-calling and to absurd personal accusations ("you are a synergistic Arminianist") just shows his empty hand. I take no offense (I find it funny, not offensive) but revealing. It's not "baffling" it simply is a result of having no other "card" to play. And don't misunderstand, our friend is NOT confused. This "I don't understand" is motivated by the same empty hand.


4. TULIP is a VERY tight, closed system - all based on supposed LOGIC (not Scripture, not Tradition), formed on the "answers" a few later-day Calvinists gave to the questions they asked - determined true because their own answer seems "logical" to themselves and fits in the very tight system. MANY Calvinists have stepped back enough to see the problem and for centuries have rebuked what they now call "hyper-Calvinism." In truth, much of TULIP is considered to be an over-reaching, over-reaction to Arminianism... and the "L" is the least affirmed, least embraced part of TULIP for the vast, vast majortty of Calvinists. Indeed, most of TULIP has been modified considerably. Arminius invented a radical, new, "logical" construct that simply is unbiblical (and utimately horrible and terrifying). These FEW later-day Calvinists responded point by point by doing EXACTLY THE SAME THING, just in reverse. Both have the very same problem. Which is why most Christians don't swallow EITHER tight, "logical", unbiblical construct.



Well, good came from this. As all (but one) affirm and see the importance of the biblical position. Let our friends "problem" be a lesson for ALL of us (most of all, me).... we can get "locked" into error, more concerned about defending something than in evaluating if it's actually true. ALL of us can (and likely do) fall into that. What is clearly seen in MennoSota here likely applies to us all at points; perhaps not as obvious but just as true. PART of being in the church is providing accountability to each other, helping each other.



A blessed Advent to all!



- Josiah




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[MennoSota]

It is what saint John said though. He did say that Christ is the expiation for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 2:2 And he is the expiation for our sins. And not only for our sins, but also for those of the whole world.

MC, I have been over this, ad nauseum. I explained the context and meaning.
It ain't universalism that John is preaching. As long as you hold that view, you will have a huge contradiction to try pretzel out of.

 

[MennoSota]

1. Your flat-out contradiction of what God clearly and often says is YOUR problem.

2. Your inability to find even one verse that states this new invention of a few later-day hyper-Calvinists is YOUR problem.

3. There is no "contradiction" in Scripture - just in your theology on this point. Christ died for all (just as the Bible repeatedly says). Not all are saved because not all have faith, just as all Christians except for a TINY subset of Calvinists know. The Reformation Theology you're rejecting is: Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide, as ONE truth. So, 3 things must be present - God's love/grace/mercy, Christ's atoning work, faith. When all 3 are not present, nor is justification.
but you've abandoned that Reformation theology .

There is no "new" invention regarding God choosing his sheep.
If Jesus atoned for all the goats...why are they sent to hell?

 

[Josiah]

According to Josiah, Jesus atoned for all humanity...including all humans who are dead in their sins. It's just that those dead persons don't believe and that is why they are not forgiven.

EXACTLY! Which is what all of us have been telling you. It's NOT that Christ only died for some, it's that only some have faith in that.


Christ died for all. Not all have faith. Thus not all apprehend/embrace/trust/rely upon such and benefit from such. EXACTLY as all have been telling you for 14 pages of posts - you just calling us synergistic, Pelagian, Arminianists.... while you can't find even one verse that says Christ did NOT die for all but ONLY for the elect, the minority, the few, the Calvinists.... and you just ignored all the verses we offered that flatly contradict the dogma you say you defend. And that dogam is NOT "Limited Faith" but "Limited ATONEMENT" - which is just as you said, NOT that not all have faith (that would be limited faith) but that Christ died for ONLY a few, ONLY a minority, only for a (not disclosed) short list of folks... the rest have NOTHING for faith to embrace, to accept because God loves only a FEW (and thus probably not you), God has grace and mercy for only a FEW (so probably not you), Christ died for only a FEW (and thus probably not you).... one may have sincere faith but worthless faith because while one is embracing Christ (the object of faith being correct) ... well... odds are they are just embracing absolute nothingness, pure void because it's not FOR THEM.

There is no "new" invention regarding God choosing his sheep.

Ah, "the shell game."

This thread is not about election, it's about a new invented dogma of a few later-day Calvinists that Christ died for ONLY a few, a minority.... the atonement available is LIMITED.




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