Christ Gave Himself Up Only For the Church

[MennoSota]

EXACTLY! Which is what all of us have been telling you. It's NOT that Christ only died for some, it's that only some have faith in that.


Christ died for all. Not all have faith. Thus not all apprehend/embrace/trust/rely upon such and benefit from such. EXACTLY as all have been telling you for 14 pages of posts - you just calling us synergistic, Pelagian, Arminianists.... while you can't find even one verse that says Christ did NOT die for all but ONLY for the elect, the minority, the few, the Calvinists.... and you just ignored all the verses we offered that flatly contradict the dogma you say you defend. And that dogam is NOT "Limited Faith" but "Limited ATONEMENT" - which is just as you said, NOT that not all have faith (that would be limited faith) but that Christ died for ONLY a few, ONLY a minority, only for a (not disclosed) short list of folks... the rest have NOTHING for faith to embrace, to accept because God loves only a FEW (and thus probably not you), God has grace and mercy for only a FEW (so probably not you), Christ died for only a FEW (and thus probably not you).... one may have sincere faith but worthless faith because while one is embracing Christ (the object of faith being correct) ... well... odds are they are just embracing absolute nothingness, pure void because it's not FOR THEM.







Ah, "the shell game."

This thread is not about election, it's about a new invented dogma of a few later-day Calvinists that Christ died for ONLY a few, a minority.... the atonement available is LIMITED.




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You don't see the synergism in your argument?
You don't see that your position is essentially MC and Arsenios works based position? How is it that you are incapable of seeing your massive contradiction where you mix up grace with works into a stew of man- centered salvation?
I am convinced you are just blind to this...as I once was as a young twenty-something. May God open your eyes to scripture.

 

[Josiah]

You don't see the synergism in your argument?

Nope. There's none to see.

Christ died for all - EXACTLY as the Bible says. You have been ignoring all those verses so many of us have presented because they flat out directly contradict this radical "Christ died only for a few" dogma invented by a few later-day hyper-Calvinists. And we've all noted that you can't seem to find ANY verse that states Christ died for ONLY a few, a minority (and thus probably not for you or me).

you mix up grace with works into a stew of man- centered salvation?

Not once. Not ever. Which is why you aren't quoting me. What I see is you CONSTANTLY running away from the very dogma you claim to defend, constantly changing the subject. What I see is a lot of laughable name-calling instead of defending the dogma you claim to want to defend.

May God open your eyes to scripture.

Here they are. Now show me where they state that Jesus died ONLY for the church, the elect, the minority, the few....

1 John 2:2

Isaiah 53:6

Luke 19:10

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

Hebrews 2:9

John 1:29

1 John 4:14

John 4:42

John 3:14-16 (see with Numbers 21 where the staff is for ALL who look upon it)




.

 

[MennoSota]

Nope. There's none to see.

Christ died for all - EXACTLY as the Bible says. You have been ignoring all those verses so many of us have presented because they flat out directly contradict this radical "Christ died only for a few" dogma invented by a few later-day hyper-Calvinists. And we've all noted that you can't seem to find ANY verse that states Christ died for ONLY a few, a minority (and thus probably not for you or me).






Not once. Not ever. Which is why you aren't quoting me. What I see is you CONSTANTLY running away from the very dogma you claim to defend, constantly changing the subject. What I see is a lot of laughable name-calling instead of defending the dogma you claim to want to defend.







Here they are. Now show me where they state that Jesus died ONLY for the church, the elect, the minority, the few....

1 John 2:2

Isaiah 53:6

Luke 19:10

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

Hebrews 2:9

John 1:29

1 John 4:14

John 4:42

John 3:14-16 (see with Numbers 21 where the staff is for ALL who look upon it)




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As I said. You are simply blind to your synergism. This also applies to the fact you do not hold to the Solas. What I see is your Roman Catholic upbringing clinging mightily to your doctrine.

 

[Lamb]

As I said. You are simply blind to your synergism. This also applies to the fact you do not hold to the Solas. What I see is your Roman Catholic upbringing clinging mightily to your doctrine.

Synergism states that man cooperates in his salvation. Lutherans do not believe that and Josiah does not believe that.

Lutherans believe that although man cannot cooperate, he can reject what God gives. That is not semi-pelagian and that is not synergistic.

 

[MennoSota]

Synergism states that man cooperates in his salvation. Lutherans do not believe that and Josiah does not believe that.

Lutherans believe that although man cannot cooperate, he can reject what God gives. That is not semi-pelagian and that is not synergistic.

Josiah repeatedly states that humans must choose to believe because Jesus Atonement is for all, but it is only effective for those who choose to believe.
That is the very essence of synergism and Josiah teaches it.
What you have shared about Lutheranism is... synergism. You just try to mask it in a backward fashion.

 

[Josiah]

Josiah repeatedly states that humans must choose to believe because Jesus Atonement is for all, but it is only effective for those who choose to believe.

Everyone here is laughing at you, my friend.


Everyone here KNOWS I've never, ever, remotely said that people CHOOSE to believe or not believe. Not once in this thread have I even typed the word "choose" (until now, lol). You keep making stuff up that everyone knows is the exact opposite of reality.


Everyone here KNOWS this thread is not about choosing or not choosing.... it's not about election (double, single or not at all).


It's about one radical invention of a few later-day hyper-Calvinists and their dogma of "Limited ATONEMENT", which is as you stated, that Christ died for ONLY a few, a minority (and thus the odds are not you or me).... ONLY for the elect, the church.


You have had FIFTEEN PAGES of posts to come up with so much as one verse that teaches Jesus died for ONLY a few, ONLY the elect, ONLY the church. And you've not been able. Just a profoundly silly, illogical apologetic that if a Scripture says something is true in one case, it thus is ONLY true in that (If I say I love my wife, your whole argument is THEREFORE it is a dogmatic fact that I don't love God).


You have had FIFTEEN PAGES of posts to show how all the many Scriptures we've offered, all flat-out contradicting you, how they are wrong. You've consistently dodged and ignored every one, every time.


You choose to present the most rejected, least accepted part of TULIP... and have revealed why it's been abandoned.




.

 

[MennoSota]

Everyone here is laughing at you, my friend.


Everyone here KNOWS I've never, ever, remotely said that people CHOOSE to believe or not believe. Not once in this thread have I even typed the word "choose" (until now, lol). You keep making stuff up that everyone knows is the exact opposite of reality.


Everyone here KNOWS this thread is not about choosing or not choosing.... it's not about election (double, single or not at all).


It's about one radical invention of a few later-day hyper-Calvinists and their dogma of "Limited ATONEMENT", which is as you stated, that Christ died for ONLY a few, a minority (and thus the odds are not you or me).... ONLY for the elect, the church.


You have had FIFTEEN PAGES of posts to come up with so much as one verse that teaches Jesus died for ONLY a few, ONLY the elect, ONLY the church. And you've not been able. Just a profoundly silly, illogical apologetic that if a Scripture says something is true in one case, it thus is ONLY true in that (If I say I love my wife, your whole argument is THEREFORE it is a dogmatic fact that I don't love God).


You have had FIFTEEN PAGES of posts to show how all the many Scriptures we've offered, all flat-out contradicting you, how they are wrong. You've consistently dodged and ignored every one, every time.


You choose to present the most rejected, least accepted part of TULIP... and have revealed why it's been abandoned.




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Jesus was laughed at by the Jewish leaders. It doesn't bother me if you laugh.
It is sad for me that you cannot see your synergism. However, as I have said, I once was where you are at. I am confident God will help you as you let scripture teach.

 

[Josiah]

It is sad for me that you cannot see your synergism.

There's none to see. If there was, you'd quote me. All you did was accuse me of something everyone knows I never said and don't remotely believe. You couldn't quote me saying anything about anyone choosing anything... so now you just run from what you said.

This thread is not about synergism. It's not about predestination (single, double or not-at-all). It's about the "L" in TULIP, this radical new invented dogma of a FEW later-day hyper-Calvinists. Called "Limited ATONEMENT" it is as you said: that Christ died for ONLY a few, a minority... the elect, the church. You keep wanted to play the shell game and you want to engage in name calling, but none of that is the issue here.

IF you have a verse that states Jesus died for ONLY a few.... give it. But you've had 15 PAGES of opportunity.
IF you can show that all the verses many here have shared that directly, flat-out contradict you aren't true... give it. But you've had 15 PAGES of opportunity.

I am confident God will help you as you let scripture teach.

EASY. Quote a verse that says Jesus died for ONLY a few, the elect, the church.... Why won't you? You had 15 pages of posts to do so...

EASY. Show where all the many Scriptures shared with you are wrong.... Why won't you? You've had 15 pages of posts to do so...

All we get is absurd, laughable name-calling and changing the subject.... All we get is if we don't agree with you, we MUST be a synergistic, Pelagian... but you can't quote me (or anyone) posting ANYTHING remotely synergistic or Pelagian here.... you are just showing your empty hand, IMO.

 

[MennoSota]

There's none to see. If there was, you'd quote me. All you did was accuse me of something everyone knows I never said and don't remotely believe.

This thread is not about synergism. It's about the "L" in TULIP, this radical new invented dogma of a FEW later-day hyper-Calvinists. Called "Limited ATONEMENT" it is as you said: that Christ died for ONLY a few, a minority... the elect, the church. You keep wanted to play the shell game and you want to engage in name calling, but none of that is the issue here.

IF you have a verse that states Jesus died for ONLY a few.... give it. But you've had 15 PAGES of opportunity.
IF you can show that all the verses many here have shared that directly, flat-out contradict you aren't true... give it. But you've had 15 PAGES of opportunity.





EASY. Quote a verse that says Jesus died for ONLY a few, the elect, the church.... Why won't you? You had 15 pages of posts to do so...

EASY. Show where all the many Scriptures shared with you are wrong.... Why won't you? You've had 15 pages of posts to do so...

All we get is absurd, laughable name-calling and changing the subject.... All we get is if we don't agree with you, we MUST be a synergistic, Pelagian... but you can't quote me (or anyone) posting ANYTHING remotely synergistic or Pelagian here.... you are just showing your empty hand, IMO.

Josiah, I not only quoted you, I broke down your quote into the four parts and showed how you contradicted yourself. I really can't make it any more clear.
The fact is, you have a blind spot. You just cannot see it. I was once in your position. I just couldn't get my mind around my own contradictions and I chuckled at those who tried to show me where I was wrong.
Thankfully, God was not done with me. He just pointed me to His word. As I read, God made it obvious regarding my blindness, which came from denominational teaching rather than rightly dividing scripture.
I believe you are saved. God is going to keep revealing his word to you...if you allow the denominational bias to take second place behind scripture.

 

[NewCreation435]

I'm really waiting for someone on this thread to say "Liar, Liar, pants on fire." like a 4 year old child.

That's kinda what this thread sounds like or maybe something like

"I know you are what am I."

Can we please grow up a little. This is really getting old fast

 

[MoreCoffee]

I'm really waiting for someone on this thread to say "Liar, Liar, pants on fire." like a 4 year old child.

That's kinda what this thread sounds like or maybe something like

"I know you are what am I."

Can we please grow up a little. This is really getting old fast

A good number of CH threads go that way. Facts do not matter. Keeping up appearances does. "keeping face" is the game. What the bible says is apparently irrelevant. What good Christian people from past ages say is irrelevant. All that matters is "I am right and you are wrong until you submit to my opinion". A few Neyah Neyah Neyah comments and away we go.

 

[pinacled]

So "the whole world" means "different social groups" rather than "the whole world"?

Are you attempting to argue with the revelation given yochanon(john.

Those that take the mark of the beast and drink from the cup of demons will ultimately have no place in heaven.

I hope you have only picked up a tare by mistake.

"For lack of knowledge..........."

Yes the gift of salvation is offered to all. But to imply that offer is given to those who bowed the knee to serve Satan(elihu is far from the truth.

I hope you also remember what a few talmidim(disciples warned about teaching.

[ "Talmid Chacham (Hebrew: תלמיד חכם‬, "student of a sage", or Hebrew: תלמיד חכמים‬, lit. ... Talmidei Chachamim; in Mishnaic Hebrew Talmidh Ḥakham and Talmidhe Ḥakhamim) is an honorific title given to one well versed in Jewish law, in effect, a Torah scholar.]"

Bless those who curse........."

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

If you cannot see the contradiction in the words I quoted from him, then I can only conclude that you have the same blindness in your eyes.

Well, I am a little light sensitive at times. Thanks for caring.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

If Jesus atoned for all the goats...why are they sent to hell?

Good question. Quote for me (in context) who has suggested it and we can address the error.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

...Now show me where they state that Jesus died ONLY for the church, the elect, the minority, the few....

1 John 2:2

Isaiah 53:6

Luke 19:10

2 Corinthians 5:14-15

Hebrews 2:9

John 1:29

1 John 4:14

John 4:42

John 3:14-16 (see with Numbers 21 where the staff is for ALL who look upon it)

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As I said. You are simply blind to your synergism. This also applies to the fact you do not hold to the Solas. What I see is your Roman Catholic upbringing clinging mightily to your doctrine.

Menno, is it that you're unable to provide scripture as requested? Are you merely unaware of it? Do you need guidance to do so?

Or do you just not wanna?

 

[MennoSota]

Good question. Quote for me (in context) who has suggested it and we can address the error.

Here is what Josiah stated:

Christ died for all (as the Bible repeatedly, boldly states).... it's just that not all trust/rely/embrace Him.

Christ died for all = Unlimited Atonement
Not all trust/rely/embrace = humans will not to believe.
Thus... The human will nullifies the Unlimited Atonement of Christ for sins.
So...
If Jesus atoned for all the goats...why are they sent to hell?

 

[MennoSota]

Menno, is it that you're unable to provide scripture as requested? Are you merely unaware of it? Do you need guidance to do so?

Or do you just not wanna?

1And you were*dead in the trespasses and sins*2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following*the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in*the sons of disobedience—*3among whom we all once lived in*the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body*and the mind, and*were by nature*children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.*4But*God, being*rich in mercy,*because of the great love with which he loved us,*5even*when we were dead in our trespasses,*made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—*6and raised us up with him and*seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,*7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable*riches of his grace in*kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.*8For*by grace you have been saved*through faith. And this is*not your own doing;*it is the gift of God,*9not a result of works,*so that no one may boast.*

 

[MennoSota]

29For those whom he*foreknew he also*predestined*to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be*the firstborn among many brothers.*30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also*justified, and those whom he justified he also*glorified.

 

[MennoSota]

21And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind,*doing evil deeds,*22he has now reconciled*in his body of flesh by his death,*in order to present you holy and blameless and*above reproach before him,*23if indeed you continue in the faith,*stable and steadfast, not shifting from*the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed*in all creationunder heaven,*and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

 

[MennoSota]

6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,*7and not all are children of Abraham*because they are his offspring, but*“Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.”*8This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but*the children of the promise are counted as offspring.*9For this is what the promise said:*“About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.”*10And not only so, but*also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac,*11though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of*him who calls—*12she was told,*“The older will serve the younger.”*13As it is written,*“Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14What shall we say then?*Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means!*15For he says to Moses,*“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”*16So then it depends not on human will or exertion,*but on God, who has mercy.*17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh,*“For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”*18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For*who can resist his will?”*20But who are you, O man,*to answer back to God?*Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”*21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump*one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?*22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience*vessels of wrath*prepared for destruction,*23in order to make known*the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he*has prepared beforehand for glory—*24even us whom he*has called,*not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?*