[MENTION=394]MennoSota[/MENTION]
READ THIS:
TULIP was constructed by a few later-day Calvinists as a point-by-point counter to 5 unbilical, tight but considered "logical" arguments of Arminianists with 5 equally unbiblical, tight but considered "logical" points by these few Calvinists.
The "L" (the only issue of this thread) is as you said: That Christ died for ONLY a few, a minority.... He died ONLY for the church, the elect.... NOT for all or even for most but for a not-disclosed short list of persons. It's called "Limited ATONEMENT" because the atonement is limited in terms of who it is available to.
The "L" does not stand for "Limited Effectiveness." As YOU YOURSELF stressed, the dogma we're discussing is not limited effectiveness but Limited Atonement, it is the radical invention of a FEW later-day hyper-Calvinists that Jesus died for ONLY a few.... God loves only a few... God has mercy for only a few.... ONLY a few have anything for faith to apprehend, to claim, to embrace, to trust - for most, their faith has only pure void to embrace. That is the issue before us, as you stressed. You keep TRYING to change the subject, switch to other OTHER teaching of TULIP, switch the issue to how faith is aquired, anything to change the issue you yourself brought up and said it's about: Christ dying ONLY for the elect, the church, the few. Never offering one verse that teaches that.... evading a long list of verses that state the exact opposite.
Friend, everyone realizes that not all 7.5 billion people on the planet have faith. All but a tiny minority of Calvinists hold that that's why not all are saved. This is what everyone but you has been saying in this thread. Most Calvinists have abandoned the "L" in tulip for a very sound reason: It's flat out contrary to Scripture, as all have proven here. They have returned to the Protestant Theology of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide, where faith is the variant - not the Cross. The reason some aren't saved is because they don't have faith NOT because God doesn't love them, God has no mercy for them, Christ didn't die for them. Of course, everyone knows you stated a pure falsehood when you said I insisted each must freely CHOOSE whether to have faith or not. How desperate of you. You couldn't quote me say that because of course, as everyone here knows, I've NEVER remotely said any such thing - you made it up, in pure desperation. But the variable is faith - whether one sees that coming from self or God is irrelevant to this point. The presence or absence of faith is the reason some are heaven bound and some not. Not the presence or absence of God, Christ, the Cross.
The "WHY" some aren't saved is a valid question, but your answer is a direct, obvious contradiction of Scripture. Even strong Calvinists have abandoned this "L" view ... it's repudiated by nearly all Calvinists as "hyper-Calvinism." Why are "the goats" not going to hell? Because they don't have faith.... NOT because of the radical dogma invented by a FEW later-day hyper-Calvinists: because Christ didn't die for them, the Cross being insufficient, there being a undisclosed short list of persons for whom something exists for their faith to apprehend/claim/trust/rely/grasp... but for most (and odds are that includes you and me), for most of us, faith is irrelevant because while it's object may be correct, that object doesn't exist for us - only pure emptiness and absolute void.
Consider the obvious: You have not been able to come up with one verse that says Christ died for ONLY some. And you have needed to evade and dodge a long list of Scriptures that flat-out contradict the dogma you originally claimed to hold but nearly all Calvinists have repudiated. Your only apologetic seems to accuse other people of being synergistic Pelagian Arminianists if they don't agree with this largely repudiated radical invention of a few hyper-Calvinists. When you accuse ME of that, well..... And then have nothing else to support this dogma.
A blessed Advent to all.
- Josiah
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