Christ Gave Himself Up Only For the Church

[MennoSota]

Yes. Jesus died for all. Just as the Bible SO often says, if we just read and believe what it says... not deleting what it says then inserting what it does NOT say so as to turn it 180 degrees opposite.

No. That doesn't result in everyone being saved because there is another factor, faith. While the work of Christ is for all, not all embrace it. I suppose you have the ability to ask "why?" but that doesn't mean anyone has the ability to answer it. Some approach God with humility. Some say what God does, others tell God what He should say.





... and for that faith to be effective, there must be something for it to embrace/trust/rely upon... something that is real FOR THEM.






Nope. Not at all.

The difference is you are mandating a very radical DOGMA first invented by a FEW latter-day hyper-Calvinists and today rejected by virtually all Calvinists I'm aware of, one CLEARLY and OBVIOUSLY not taught in Scripture (which is why you can't come up with anything) and OBVIOUSLY contradicted by a plethora of verses... that Jesus died ONLY for a few.

I'm standing with Scripture.... 2000 years of ecumenical tradition.... And believing what Scripture says. No doubting. No wondering. No telling God, "but that can't be because it doesn't make sense to me."





Irrelevant and off-topic, but correct, you can't see that. If Christ died for only a few, then His Sacrifice is meaningless to any individual - because odds are He didn't die for them and their faith probably is in vain, they won't know until they die if what they've been trusting is really just empty nothingness. But we're WAY off topic.





You seem good at asking questions.... then appointing yourself to answer them..... then claiming your answer to be dogma. A lack of humility there, my friend. This we can say with Scripture: God desires all to be saved. Jesus died for all. We apprehend that by faith. God gives faith to some. Now... do we understand how all that works? How all that cranks out? No. We know what God has told us.

You DEMAND that God submit to YOUR brain, YOUR (frankly, absurdly illogical) logic - even when it directly, obviously, contradicts EXACTLY what God has said. Maybe a little humility in needed. Maybe faith is needed. Maybe God knows more about all this than you do? Is that possible? Maybe what we should say is what God does, rather than the exact opposite?





See.... this is just ONE of the things that frustrates me so much when discussing the very radical aspects of hyper-Calvinism with you.... the constant shell game, the perpetual lack of humility. Friend, NO CHRISTIAN ON THE PLANET denies that Christ atoned for all the elect and saved every one whom the Father gave him. I've agreed with you as boldly as possible every time you'd said that! But TRY to address the issue! TRY to stop the endless shell game! NOTHING you said there remotely supports the radical dogma long ago abandoned by most Calvinists: that Jesus died ONLY for the elect.





Friend, everyone sees how you employ some of the biggest, most radical, most extreme eisegesis every witnessed (much worse than Catholics on the papacy, etc.). You HAD to turn all those versed upside down and inside out, deleting the key words and replacing them with the opposite, in order to get them to agree with you. It's horrible.





HHHHHHHHHEEEEEEELLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOO

It's the dogma we're discussing! You having nothing to show that Christ died ONLY for the church does not substantiate that He died ONLY for the church.





.

Josiah...you keep saying the atonement is for everyone...but.
There is no "but" when I speak.
I say, the atonement is for everyone of the elect. Faith is given to the elect so they will believe.
You cannot see how your added "but" results in diminishing the atonement of Christ. What you cling to is a human philosophy of free will, not a Good given truth.

 

[pinacled]

Josiah...you keep saying the atonement is for everyone...but.
There is no "but" when I speak.
I say, the atonement is for everyone of the elect. Faith is given to the elect so they will believe.
You cannot see how your added "but" results in diminishing the atonement of Christ. What you cling to is a human philosophy of free will, not a Good given truth.

like i said,
whats the point in continuing such a topic..its time to move on..

No need to continue any further while there are beautiful areas of time to explore The Word of the Lord..
remember that we are to be examples.

If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.

 

[Josiah]

Josiah...you keep saying the atonement is for everyone...but.
There is no "but" when I speak.

Which is why Calvinism can lead to deleting faith... faith being moot... and why many Calvinist churches ultimately became Universalist churches.


Friend, the Reformation Theology you have abandoned is the very one on which the Reformation is founded: Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. You have simply replaced that with your own "logical construct."

Faith is given to the elect so they will believe.

... and of course, everyone here has fully agreed with you on that. I have REPEATEDLY.

Now, if that was the topic here, we all would have agreed back on page one! But here we are on page 37... because that's not the topic, is it?


But let's return to the topic. We're still waiting: Where does Scripture say that Jesus died ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for the elect? That's the topic we're discussing (and nothing else), that's the dogma under review (and nothing else). It does no good to switch to something we all agree on (because it IS what Scripture says, what 2000 years of Christianity says). You give Scriptures that we all agree with (and unlike you, don't need to add or delete any of the words in them) but you won't give a Scripture that says what you do. I think it's obvious: Because you can't.

And you seem to like to change subjects. Constantly. You are right when you say that the dogma is that Christ died ONLY for the church. But then you waver and say, "Well, the RESULT of that BENEFITS only the believers" which is what the rest of us are saying, but you seem to suggest that makes all of us wrong. The dogma is NOT, "Christ's Death Results in Limited Salvation? it's "Christ died for only a few." A doctrine you not once supported, in 37 pages. A doctrine you could not find one verse that teaches. A doctrine that required you deny a whole host of verses about, all of which obviously say the exact opposite of what you do.

What you cling to is a human philosophy of free will, not a Good given truth.

It's not only the perpetual shell game.... the HUGE eisegesis.... but your idea that if you make an ABSURD, LAUGHABLE charge that those who disagree with you teach what everyone knows they don't, ergo you must be right. You know I'm a monergist, you know I believe faith is a divine gift. EVERYONE HERE KNOWS THAT. So, you (laughably) accusing me of what you and everyone KNOWS is false does NOT make you right. You need a refresher on logic, my friend.

And here again, the shell game. This thread is not whether faith is a personal choice or a divine gift (nice topic, JUST NOT THIS ONE)... it's about this radical dogma invented by a few latter-day hyper-Calvinists that "Jesus died ONLY for the church." How you love to change the subject.... even trying to "win" by changing the subject, FALSELY accusing another of a position EVERYONE knows they don't hold, and then claiming because they are wrong about that other matter you ERGO are right about this one. Friend, think about that.

Now, read and consider what I posted to you.



A blessed Second Day of Christmas to all



- Josiah

 

[MennoSota]

Which is why Calvinism can lead to deleting faith... faith being moot... and why many Calvinist churches ultimately became Universalist churches.


Friend, the Reformation Theology you have abandoned is the very one on which the Reformation is founded: Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. You have simply replaced that with your own "logical construct."






... and of course, everyone here has fully agreed with you on that. I have REPEATEDLY.

Now, if that was the topic here, we all would have agreed back on page one! But here we are on page 37... because that's not the topic, is it?


But let's return to the topic. We're still waiting: Where does Scripture say that Jesus died ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for the elect? That's the topic we're discussing (and nothing else), that's the dogma under review (and nothing else). It does no good to switch to something we all agree on (because it IS what Scripture says, what 2000 years of Christianity says). You give Scriptures that we all agree with (and unlike you, don't need to add or delete any of the words in them) but you won't give a Scripture that says what you do. I think it's obvious: Because you can't.

And you seem to like to change subjects. Constantly. You are right when you say that the dogma is that Christ died ONLY for the church. But then you waver and say, "Well, the RESULT of that BENEFITS only the believers" which is what the rest of us are saying, but you seem to suggest that makes all of us wrong. The dogma is NOT, "Christ's Death Results in Limited Salvation? it's "Christ died for only a few." A doctrine you not once supported, in 37 pages. A doctrine you could not find one verse that teaches. A doctrine that required you deny a whole host of verses about, all of which obviously say the exact opposite of what you do.






It's not only the perpetual shell game.... the HUGE eisegesis.... but your idea that if you make an ABSURD, LAUGHABLE charge that those who disagree with you teach what everyone knows they don't, ergo you must be right. You know I'm a monergist, you know I believe faith is a divine gift. EVERYONE HERE KNOWS THAT. So, you (laughably) accusing me of what you and everyone KNOWS is false does NOT make you right. You need a refresher on logic, my friend.

And here again, the shell game. This thread is not whether faith is a personal choice or a divine gift (nice topic, JUST NOT THIS ONE)... it's about this radical dogma invented by a few latter-day hyper-Calvinists that "Jesus died ONLY for the church." How you love to change the subject.... even trying to "win" by changing the subject, FALSELY accusing another of a position EVERYONE knows they don't hold, and then claiming because they are wrong about that other matter you ERGO are right about this one. Friend, think about that.

Now, read and consider what I posted to you.



A blessed Second Day of Christmas to all



- Josiah

Faith is not moot. Faith is a gift from God. A gift of God is never moot.
It's clear you're sticking your fingers in your ears, Josiah. It's pointless to discuss any further with you.

 

[pinacled]

like i said,
whats the point in continuing such a topic..its time to move on..

No need to continue any further while there are beautiful areas of time to explore The Word of the Lord..
remember that we are to be examples.

If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.

Yayr(jude
["Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the :saints"!.]
The hebrew equivelant of saint is tzadik.

Enough has been said mennas.

Your exegesis was based on sound doctrine and shows instruction well placed from the wonderful counselor.

Blessed be The Holy One

 

[Josiah]

Faith is not moot. Faith is a gift from God. A gift of God is never moot.

... then why insist that people are unsaved because Christ never died for them? Especially when you have NOTHING that states Christ only died for a few and must alter all the many verses that state He died for all?

It's pointless to discuss any further with you.

It's pointless to just perpetually play the shell game and refuse to address the issue at hand.... to FALSELY accuse others of absurd things they don't believe about some other matter and then argue you must therefore be right about this one.... to impose radical extreme eisegesis on verses by deleting the very words that contradict you and jsut inserting instead the word you wish had been there....

It's really quite simple. Stop the diversions, the accusations, the eisegesis. And just quote the verse(s) that say what you do, and explain why the verses that contradict you are wrong (and don't CHANGE the verses so that they are the opposite of what they are). After all, aren't you the one that insists we must reject any doctrine not clearly taught in the words of the Bible? ARen't you the one who condemns when words of texts are deleted when they contradict and replaced with other words so they won't?

It's HARD to have this conversation with you (and pretty much everyone else gave up LONG AGO) because you won't discuss it. You just ask questions.... falsely accuse others of believing what everyone knows they don't.... dodge... change the subject.... and impose (truly, honestly) the most radical, extreme eisegesis I've ever witnessed. I wonder why.

 

[MennoSota]

... then why insist that people are unsaved because Christ never died for them? Especially when you have NOTHING that states Christ only died for a few and must alter all the many verses that state He died for all?





It's pointless to just perpetually play the shell game and refuse to address the issue at hand.... to FALSELY accuse others of absurd things they don't believe about some other matter and then argue you must therefore be right about this one.... to impose radical extreme eisegesis on verses by deleting the very words that contradict you and jsut inserting instead the word you wish had been there....

It's really quite simple. Stop the diversions, the accusations, the eisegesis. And just quote the verse(s) that say what you do, and explain why the verses that contradict you are wrong (and don't CHANGE the verses so that they are the opposite of what they are). After all, aren't you the one that insists we must reject any doctrine not clearly taught in the words of the Bible? ARen't you the one who condemns when words of texts are deleted when they contradict and replaced with other words so they won't?

It's HARD to have this conversation with you (and pretty much everyone else gave up LONG AGO) because you won't discuss it. You just ask questions.... falsely accuse others of believing what everyone knows they don't.... dodge... change the subject.... and impose (truly, honestly) the most radical, extreme eisegesis I've ever witnessed. I wonder why.

Josiah, you don't get it. You won't get it.

 

[Andrew]

.

 

[Josiah]

Josiah, you don't get it.

Quote a verse that says Christ died ONLY for a few, JUST for the church - and I will.

Show why all the MANY verses that flat-out contradict you are all wrong (and don't delete the key words and substitute different words you prefer to do it) - and I will.

Easy.

Been waiting for how many pages now? Waiting for that. In vain.

 

[MennoSota]

Quote a verse that says Christ died ONLY for a few, JUST for the church - and I will.

Show why all the MANY verses that flat-out contradict you are all wrong (and don't delete the key words and substitute different words you prefer to do it) - and I will.

Easy.

Been waiting for how many pages now? Waiting for that. In vain.

Josiah, I leave others to see how you have been shown wrong on multiple levels.
I have provided scripture, which you reject. I have explained scripture, in context, which you reject. I have shown how you disrespect the atonement of Christ by your teaching that Christ died in vain for the vast amount of humanity.
Your rejection of all this is obvious to anyone reading this thread. I can only point you toward water. I cannot make you drink.

 

[MennoSota]

When you hear the question, “For whom did Jesus die?” what do you think?

The answer may seem obvious:*for the world. After all,*John 1:29*says that Jesus is the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of*the world. And*John 3:16*declares that “God so loved*the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.” As a result, many interpreters assert that Jesus died for the entire world, and not for a predestined number of people.

But what does the term “world” mean when used in association with Jesus’s death? Does it refer to everyone*without distinction*or to everyone*without exception? There is a difference.

Everyone without distinction would mean that Jesus died for all kinds of people from every tongue, tribe, people, and nation. Everyone without exception would mean that he died for every single individual person without any exception. This latter view asserts that even those who die rejecting Jesus can say that Jesus’s blood was for them because those for whom Jesus died may or may not have faith in him.

I believe the Scripture teaches that Jesus died for all people in the world without distinction — meaning, Jesus died for all kinds of people from every tongue, tribe, people, and nation. And he died not only to give a*bona fide*offer of salvation to all, but to actually purchase and effect the final salvation of his elect. In the book of Romans, the apostle Paul teaches that Jesus’s death actually achieved the benefits of salvation for those for whom he died. Paul does not present Jesus’s death as hypothetically accomplishing the salvation of all people without exception, but as actually accomplishing salvation for all for whom he died.

 

[MennoSota]

In Romans, Paul states that Jesus’s death justifies (declares righteous) sinners by faith in Christ and connects justification by faith with Jesus’s blood (Romans 3:24–30). He asserts that God justifies sinners by faith because he offered Jesus to die for their sins. All sinners must be freely justified by God’s redemption provided by Jesus because all (Jews and Gentiles) have sinned (Romans 1:18–3:24). Justification is God’s gracious gift and comes to all sinners freely through the redemption accomplished by means of Jesus’s blood (Romans 3:24–25).

Justification by faith in*Romans 3:21–22*and in 3:24 is connected with “redemption” (3:24) and with the idea of bloody sacrifice (Romans 3:25). This connection suggests that Jesus’s blood accomplished liberation for those for whom he died. In light of Paul’s remarks in*Romans 3:20, that the law justifies no one, and in*Romans 3:24, that all people must be graciously justified through redemption in Jesus Christ, Paul explains in*Romans 3:25–26*how God justifies sinners through Jesus’s redemption. He states (literally) that God “offered Jesus to be an atoning sacrifice,” that this sacrifice is received “by faith,” and that Jesus’s “blood” accomplished justification for the one who has faith in Jesus (Romans 3:25–26).

The security of those justified is even clearer in*Ephesians 1:4–5and*1:7*when we examine election, predestination (Ephesians 1:4–5), redemption, and forgiveness of sins with the blood of Christ (Ephesians 1:7). A straightforward reading of*Ephesians 1:4–7suggests that God chose some Jews and Gentiles to be in Christ before the foundation of the world and predestined them in love to be in God’s family, and that Jesus redeemed those whom God chose and predestined by accomplishing their forgiveness of sins.

 

[MennoSota]

Jesus’s death as a death for all elect Jews and Gentiles without distinction should encourage all Christians. Here are six reasons that we should find joy in the doctrine that Jesus died to save the elect.

Christians can be confident that Jesus’s blood will conquer the power of sin and death. Everyone for whom Jesus died will receive the saving benefits of his death by faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ. Jesus’s death victoriously liberates sinners from sin and disarms the power of the devil. Both of these truths become apparent when those for whom Jesus died respond to his saving work in faith and obedience.

When people die in unbelief, this does not prove that God’s plan to save the world through the death of his Son failed. Jesus both universally and exclusively died to save his sheep (John 10:11–16). Yes, it is true that everyone who wants to be saved can be. And it is equally true that everyone for whom Jesus died will be saved. This is, in fact, a fundamental reason for which he died.

Jesus’s blood guarantees that his elect will be saved when the Spirit awakens them after they hear the gospel. Jesus came from heaven to seek, find, and purchase his elect sheep. The blood of Jesus secures a place in the sheepfold. Christians should, therefore, cling to the blood of Jesus Christ as our only hope in life and death, along with his victorious resurrection.

Christians can evangelize with confidence in God’s redemptive plan to redeem everyone for whom Jesus died to redeem. Jesus shed his blood to save the elect whom God chose to be in Christ. The verbal proclamation of the gospel makes known to the elect the salvation accomplished by Christ for them, and the Spirit — when he’s willing — will create faith in the hearts of all the elect and apply the benefits of the death of Jesus specifically to the elect for whom Jesus died. Evangelism, then, is simply the Christian act of announcing to all sinners what God has done in Christ to save them. And Christians should proclaim this message to anyone who will listen. The Spirit will create life in the hearts of the elect and apply the benefits of Jesus’s death to them when he’s willing.

Jesus’s death for the elect should assure Christians of their salvation. Many Christians doubt their salvation. However, since Jesus’s blood was shed specifically for elect Jews and Gentiles, we can be confident that the blood of Christ will cover all of our sins. We can also be certain that Jesus’s blood alone is sufficient to plead for us before the throne of God above.

Jesus, the Jewish Messiah, shed his blood for elect Jews*and elect Gentiles. Therefore, the church of Jesus Christ should relentlessly pursue gospel racial reconciliation in such a way that the death of Jesus (and the resurrection) is at the very center of all calls for racial harmony and justice. Jesus’s shed blood for the elect from every tongue, tribe, and nation creates the necessary motivation for Christians from every ethnic stripe to strive toward gospel unity with all people in the church.

May God’s people take great courage and joy in the fact that Christ Jesus died for all of the sins of the elect. And everyone for whom Christ died will be saved — and will be kept by the power of God and the blood of Christ.

 

[MennoSota]

https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/for-whom-did-christ-die

 

[Josiah]

In Romans, Paul states that Jesus’s death justifies (declares righteous) sinners by faith in Christ and connects justification by faith with Jesus’s blood (Romans 3:24–30). He asserts that God justifies sinners by faith because he offered Jesus to die for their sins. All sinners must be freely justified by God’s redemption provided by Jesus because all (Jews and Gentiles) have sinned (Romans 1:18–3:24). Justification is God’s gracious gift and comes to all sinners freely through the redemption accomplished by means of Jesus’s blood (Romans 3:24–25).

Justification by faith in*Romans 3:21–22*and in 3:24 is connected with “redemption” (3:24) and with the idea of bloody sacrifice (Romans 3:25). This connection suggests that Jesus’s blood accomplished liberation for those for whom he died. In light of Paul’s remarks in*Romans 3:20, that the law justifies no one, and in*Romans 3:24, that all people must be graciously justified through redemption in Jesus Christ, Paul explains in*Romans 3:25–26*how God justifies sinners through Jesus’s redemption. He states (literally) that God “offered Jesus to be an atoning sacrifice,” that this sacrifice is received “by faith,” and that Jesus’s “blood” accomplished justification for the one who has faith in Jesus (Romans 3:25–26).

The security of those justified is even clearer in*Ephesians 1:4–5and*1:7*when we examine election, predestination (Ephesians 1:4–5), redemption, and forgiveness of sins with the blood of Christ (Ephesians 1:7). A straightforward reading of*Ephesians 1:4–7suggests that God chose some Jews and Gentiles to be in Christ before the foundation of the world and predestined them in love to be in God’s family, and that Jesus redeemed those whom God chose and predestined by accomplishing their forgiveness of sins.

I agree with EVERY WORD in every one of the verses you reference. And note not one of them remotely says ONLY, JUST.... not one says that Jesus died ONLY for the elect, the church, the few, a minority.

Not one verse you've presented remotely teaches what you do and the FEW, latter-day, radical, hyper-Calvinists who invented your dogma teach.

You've made that obvious.

Now, I don't agree with all the things YOU insert into the texts.... or all the things you delete from the texts... I agree with what the texts actually state.

 

[MennoSota]

Josiah wrote: Now, I don't agree with all the things YOU insert into the texts.... or all the things you delete from the texts... I agree with what the texts actually state.

LOL, There is nothing inserted, Josiah. Context is something that seems to escape you.
There is nothing deleted from the text. Context is something that seems to escape you.
The texts actually present particular atonement. You just don't accept the entirety of scripture as it relates to salvation.
If you agree with the texts then you agree with particular atonement. It really that simple.

 

[pinacled]

LOL, There is nothing inserted, Josiah. Context is something that seems to escape you.
There is nothing deleted from the text. Context is something that seems to escape you.
The texts actually present particular atonement. You just don't accept the entirety of scripture as it relates to salvation.
If you agree with the texts then you agree with particular atonement. It really that simple.

When seeking the well you did what was right.

Shed fear and contribute a fruit of the spirit.
Or would you rather deny the Way .?

 

[TurtleHare]

I agree with EVERY WORD in every one of the verses you reference. And note not one of them remotely says ONLY, JUST.... not one says that Jesus died ONLY for the elect, the church, the few, a minority.

Not one verse you've presented remotely teaches what you do and the FEW, latter-day, radical, hyper-Calvinists who invented your dogma teach.

You've made that obvious.

Now, I don't agree with all the things YOU insert into the texts.... or all the things you delete from the texts... I agree with what the texts actually state.

Ain't it strange to read that Christ died for the world and then have someone say no he didn't he died only for a few and you might not be one of em so you might not even have faith. I mean why even go out in the world and share the gospel anyway if Jesus didn't die for but a few cuz you won't know who to tell.