Christ Gave Himself Up Only For the Church

[MennoSota]

Isaiah 35:8-10
And a highway shall be there, and it shall be called the Way of Holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it. It shall belong to those who walk on the way; even if they are fools, they shall not go astray. No lion shall be there, nor shall any ravenous beast come up on it; they shall not be found there, but the redeemed shall walk there. And the ransomed of the Lord shall return and come to Zion with singing; everlasting joy shall be upon their heads; they shall obtain gladness and joy, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

 

[MennoSota]

Indeed, Josiah has revealed the great dilemma and massive contradiction that makes no sense at all.

1) It is TRUE that not all are saved, atonement does not ultimately embrace everyone.

Indeed, Limited atonement

2) But this is not because of the absence of Christ but the absence of faith.

Indeed, Humans cannot conjure up faith.

3) The "reason" is not that Christ offers nothing to most people, it's that most people trust nothing that is offered.

Humans can conjure up faith. Notice the contradiction with the second statement.

4) Christ died for all (as the Bible repeatedly, boldly states).... it's just that not all trust/rely/embrace Him.

Unlimited Atonement, which contradicts the first statement. Followed by humans conjuring up their own faith, which contradicts the second statement.

Josiah has a major dilemma on his hands as he contradicts himself. The first statement cannot be true if he holds to statements 3 and 4.
The second statement cannot be true if he holds to statements 3 and 4.

Josiah has wonderfully exposed his problem, which he has yet to grasp. This is nearly the same position I once held as an Arminian for decades.

 

[NewCreation435]

Jesus atoning sacrifice was only for the elect who make up the church.

Reading in Ephesians 5:
25Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and*gave himself up for her,*26that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by*the washing of water*with the word,*27so*that he might present the church to himself in splendor,*without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.

We see that Jesus gave himself up for the church, not for the whole world. Jesus gave himself up for the church so that he might sanctify (set apart) the church and present the church as being without blemish.
Jesus did not give himself for the world (universal) as some people attempt to convey from John 3:16...even though John 3 teaches God's election of those who would believe.

I don't find much comfort in your hypercalvinist position in this passage. Even if this is true, since election doesn't depend on your choice or opinion how do you know that you are among the elect? And if what your saying is true then there are those who are born lost and have no choice or chance to be redeemed because Christ didn't die for them. So, Jesus salvation would mean nothing to them regardless of what they wanted or did or didn't do. Taken to its extreme, hypercalvinist viewpoint leads to a fatalism and kills evangelism. Because it literally doesn't matter what I say to you, if your meant to be saved then you will be and if your lost then your situation is hopelss and there is nothing I can say that will change that. In fact, I'm wasting my time even trying to convince you of something because even if you did believe, if Jesus didn't die for you it is a false hope I am offering

 

[MennoSota]

I don't find much comfort in your hypercalvinist position in this passage. Even if this is true, since election doesn't depend on your choice or opinion how do you know that you are among the elect? And if what your saying is true then there are those who are born lost and have no choice or chance to be redeemed because Christ didn't die for them. So, Jesus salvation would mean nothing to them regardless of what they wanted or did or didn't do. Taken to its extreme, hypercalvinist viewpoint leads to a fatalism and kills evangelism. Because it literally doesn't matter what I say to you, if your meant to be saved then you will be and if your lost then your situation is hopelss and there is nothing I can say that will change that. In fact, I'm wasting my time even trying to convince you of something because even if you did believe, if Jesus didn't die for you it is a false hope I am offering

You assume that humans will seek out God naturally. However, the Bible tells us that we will not. By nature we are children of wrath, rebels toward God. No one seeks God, not even one. In other words, given free will, the human spirit will always choose rebellion against God. Our sin nature directs this rebellion.
Our only hope is in God's choice to rescue. We cannot rescue ourselves.
How might I know that I am rescued/redeemed?
1) God-given faith that perseveres. (Our battle is not against flesh and blood.)
2) Spiritual fruit, not generated by human will, but demonstrated by God.
3) Communion with the rest of the body of Christ.
4) Assurance, given in scripture to God's children.

I have peace. More peace than I ever knew. My burdens have been released. No more worries about whether I have done enough, was holy enough, loved enough, etc. God has made me whole, in Christ.
As Paul stated, if Christ has not risen, then I am most to be pitied. But, Christ has risen.

 

[Josiah]

You ignored this.

All addressed.... numerous times... including in post 98. You always ignore it.

All you are TRYING to do is change the subject, to get the focus OFF the "L" of TULIP, the issue of this thread. And to show you have NOTHING - not one verse - that states this new dogma of Christ died for only a few.... and to ignore all the Scriptures your new dogma contradicts.

You seem to think that Limited ATONEMENT is not about atonement being limited but faith being limited, so that for 500 years, hyper-Calvinists have misnamed, misunderstood, mistaught this. Friend, The dogma is that Christ died for ONLY some (a minority, the few). The reason not all are saved is because Christ didn't die for most, God doesn't love most, God withholds his mercy, his love, from all but a few. It's not that faith is limited (that would be Limited Faith), its' that ATONEMENT is limited, not that the effect is limited but the actual atonement is... the problem is Christ, not faith.

"LIMITED Atonement" is one of the 5 foundational/defining dogmas of radical, extreme Calvinists (those that embrace TULIP) This dogma (invented in the late 16th Century and existing only with a small subset of Calvinists) is NOT that the EFFECT of atonement is limited but that the actual atonement is limited. God loves only a few.... God's grace exists only for a few.... God has mercy for only a few.... Christ died for only a few...... The Cross is not for most. God's love doesn't exist for most. And of course, there's no list of who is on this short list, so there's no way to know if God loves YOU, if God cares for YOU, if God's mercy exists for YOU, whether what Christ did/does is for YOU (after all, it's not for most). This is the most rejected of the 5 points of TULIP but in large part, is the foundation to all the other points.


You have not offered even one Scripture that remotely teaches this. Only dodges, changing the subject, and some of the silliest, baseless, most laughable "logic" ever seen ("If one person is said to be an American this proves NO ONE ELSE is....") And you have simply ignored all the many verses that teach the exact opposite of what you do.




.

 

[MennoSota]

All addressed.... numerous times... including in post 98. You always ignore it.

All you are TRYING to do is change the subject, to get the focus OFF the "L" of TULIP, the issue of this thread. And to show you have NOTHING - not one verse - that states this new dogma of Christ died for only a few.... and to ignore all the Scriptures your new dogma contradicts.



.

No, you didn't address it, Josiah. As usual, you skirted around the very real contradiction in your theology.
I am surprised you have rejected monergism and hold to a synergist, Arminian theology.

 

[Josiah]

All addressed.... numerous times... including in post 98. You always ignore it.

All you are TRYING to do is change the subject, to get the focus OFF the "L" of TULIP, the issue of this thread. And to show you have NOTHING - not one verse - that states this new dogma of Christ died for only a few.... and to ignore all the Scriptures your new dogma contradicts.

You seem to think that Limited ATONEMENT is not about atonement being limited but faith being limited, so that for 500 years, hyper-Calvinists have misnamed, misunderstood, mistaught this. Friend, The dogma is that Christ died for ONLY some (a minority, the few), as the title you gave this thread reveals. The reason not all are saved is because Christ didn't die for most, God doesn't love most, God withholds his mercy, his love, from all but a few. It's not that faith is limited (that would be Limited Faith), its' that ATONEMENT is limited (which is why it's called Limited ATONEMENT), not that the effect is limited but the actual atonement is... the problem is Christ, not faith; some are not saved because there's nothing for their faith to embrace, rely upon, trust.


"LIMITED Atonement" is one of the 5 foundational/defining dogmas of radical, extreme Calvinists (those that embrace TULIP) This dogma (invented in the late 16th Century and existing only with a small subset of Calvinists) is NOT that the EFFECT of atonement is limited but that the actual atonement is limited. God loves only a few.... God's grace exists only for a few.... God has mercy for only a few.... Christ died for only a few...... The Cross is not for most. God's love doesn't exist for most. And of course, there's no list of who is on this short list, so there's no way to know if God loves YOU, if God cares for YOU, if God's mercy exists for YOU, whether what Christ did/does is for YOU (after all, it's not for most). This is the most rejected of the 5 points of TULIP but in large part, is the foundation to all the other points.


You have not offered even one Scripture that remotely teaches this. Only dodges, changing the subject, and some of the silliest, baseless, most laughable "logic" ever seen ("If one person is said to be an American this proves NO ONE ELSE is....") And you have simply ignored all the many verses that teach the exact opposite of what you do.


.

I am surprised you have rejected monergism and hold to a synergist, Arminian theology.

You claiming that everyone who disagrees with you is wrong because then they must be a synergistic Arminianist is just your dodging.... your inability to give even one Scripture that remotely teaches this new invention of a few hyper-Calvinists, and your ignoring a long list of Scriptures that teaches the exact opposite. Your resorting exclusively to name-calling reveals your empty hand, my friend.

Everyone here reads you claiming I'M a synergistic Arminianist - and they laugh. You are just revealing your empty hand.... that there isn't one verse that teaches what you do and a LOT that teach the opposite.




.

 

[MennoSota]

You claiming that everyone who disagrees with you is wrong because then they must be a synergistic Arminianist is just your dodging.... your inability to give even one Scripture that remotely teaches this new invention of a few hyper-Calvinists, and your ignoring a long list of Scriptures that teaches the exact opposite. Your resorting exclusively to name-calling reveals your empty hand, my friend.

Everyone here reads you claiming I'M a synergistic Arminianist - and they laugh. You are just revealing your empty hand.... that there isn't one verse that teaches what you do and a LOT that teach the opposite.




.

Josiah, your own argument is a synergist, Arminian argument. I'm surprised you even attempt to disagree.

 

[NewCreation435]

You assume that humans will seek out God naturally. However, the Bible tells us that we will not. By nature we are children of wrath, rebels toward God. No one seeks God, not even one. In other words, given free will, the human spirit will always choose rebellion against God. Our sin nature directs this rebellion.
Our only hope is in God's choice to rescue. We cannot rescue ourselves.
How might I know that I am rescued/redeemed?
1) God-given faith that perseveres. (Our battle is not against flesh and blood.)
2) Spiritual fruit, not generated by human will, but demonstrated by God.
3) Communion with the rest of the body of Christ.
4) Assurance, given in scripture to God's children.

I have peace. More peace than I ever knew. My burdens have been released. No more worries about whether I have done enough, was holy enough, loved enough, etc. God has made me whole, in Christ.
As Paul stated, if Christ has not risen, then I am most to be pitied. But, Christ has risen.

So If I am showing any signs of faith at all then it must mean I am saved since why would God waste his time on me if he knew I was just fuel for the fires of hell. Is that what your claiming?
And fruit is further evidence of this faith, but what defines true fruit, which is a by product also of the Spirit and not my own efforts

 

[MennoSota]

So If I am showing any signs of faith at all then it must mean I am saved since why would God waste his time on me if he knew I was just fuel for the fires of hell.

Is the sign that of your own will power or is it the gift of faith, given to you by God? All religions of men call for self-discipline to attain the highest level of enlightenment.
God-given faith will not be accomplished by human will.

Is that what your claiming?

See above.

And fruit is further evidence of this faith, but what defines true fruit, which is a by product also of the Spirit and not my own efforts

Fruit of the Spirit is not created by human works. The Spirit produces them and grows them through pruning and cutting. The Christian perseveres in all seasons because God gives the grace necessary to persevere.

 

[NewCreation435]

Is the sign that of your own will power or is it the gift of faith, given to you by God? All religions of men call for self-discipline to attain the highest level of enlightenment.
God-given faith will not be accomplished by human will.


See above.


Fruit of the Spirit is not created by human works. The Spirit produces them and grows them through pruning and cutting. The Christian perseveres in all seasons because God gives the grace necessary to persevere.

It still isn't clear to me how your differentiating between faith and faith given by God. According to you I would not have any will power at all to follow God if it wasn't given to me by him. that is my point, why would he give me any faith or will to follow Him if I was not destined to be saved. Wouldn't he just be wasting his time.
The other problem I have is one of fruit. There are a great many people in this world who seem to define what Godly fruit looks like, but don't claim to be believers. Humanitarians who do great things and give away millions of dollars to charity and are kind and thoughtful and help others, yet they don't care one whit about Jesus. Using bearing fruit as a proof of saving faith just seems like another way to try to assure yourself that your not among the lost. And yes I get the fact that the fruit of the Spirit is a by product of the Spirit, if you look back at my original comments about it you will see that I said that. How are you differentiating fruit of the Spirit from good deeds I just decided to do on my own?

 

[MennoSota]

It still isn't clear to me how your differentiating between faith and faith given by God. According to you I would not have any will power at all to follow God if it wasn't given to me by him. that is my point, why would he give me any faith or will to follow Him if I was not destined to be saved. Wouldn't he just be wasting his time.

God wouldn't gift you with faith. God wouldn't save you by grace. You would be a wolf in sheep's clothing.

The other problem I have is one of fruit. There are a great many people in this world who seem to define what Godly fruit looks like, but don't claim to be believers. Humanitarians who do great things and give away millions of dollars to charity and are kind and thoughtful and help others, yet they don't care one whit about Jesus. Using bearing fruit as a proof of saving faith just seems like another way to try to assure yourself that your not among the lost. And yes I get the fact that the fruit of the Spirit is a by product of the Spirit, if you look back at my original comments about it you will see that I said that. How are you differentiating fruit of the Spirit from good deeds I just decided to do on my own?

Humans do many helpful things for others out of pride. Pride in their good deeds. Pride that God might deem their works to be worthy of salvation. Pride in being told how good they are. Pride is our greatest sin and it works great works in helping other humans.
The fruit of the Spirit is established by God alone. We may not recognize the differences between human imitation and God's fruit. (think wheat and tares) but God knows and that is what counts.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Stick with scripture. Your state appointed cult is convoluted.
Ephesians 5 tells us whom Jesus gave himself for and it wasn't for the whole world.

.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

I do not preach human effort, which is the preaching of the semi-pelagian, in which you are firmly ensconced.

If you believe this about Josiah you really haven't been paying attention!

 

[MennoSota]

If you believe this about Josiah you really haven't been paying attention!

I have paid attention. Josiah says one thing and then contradicts it with another. Ultimately, his present position is semi-pelagian and Arminian. He wrote it out.
I shared how he is conflicted and broke down the struggle he is facing. He is trying to ride the fence between his past and where his path takes him. If Josiah lets scripture speak, he will see the conflict and fully accept the first two assertions he made, without reaching back for the third and fourth assertions that are in direct conflict with the first two.
I have been where Josiah presently falls...torn between my Mennonite free will and God's full Sovereignty. I had to let scripture be the guide, not my traditions. The question is whether Josiah recognizes the conflict...yet. He has moved away from Rome, by God's ordination. Will he move past his present synergist view to full Sovereignty and Reformed theology? God only knows.
The great thing is that whether a person is in the Roman church, EOC, Lutheran, Pentacostal, Reformed, Baptist, etc., God saves and works to sanctify us. With us all, there are traditions that God strips away and replaces with his word.
John Bunyan's allegory about Christian is true for all of us.

 

[Arsenios]

You assume that humans will seek out God naturally.

Well, He IS, after all, our Creator...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Well, He IS, after all, our Creator...


Arsenios

The Creator we rebel against, by nature.
Ephesians 2:1-3
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind,
and were by nature children of wrath,
like the rest of mankind.

 

[Lamb]

I have paid attention. Josiah says one thing and then contradicts it with another. Ultimately, his present position is semi-pelagian and Arminian. He wrote it out.
I shared how he is conflicted and broke down the struggle he is facing. He is trying to ride the fence between his past and where his path takes him. If Josiah lets scripture speak, he will see the conflict and fully accept the first two assertions he made, without reaching back for the third and fourth assertions that are in direct conflict with the first two.
I have been where Josiah presently falls...torn between my Mennonite free will and God's full Sovereignty. I had to let scripture be the guide, not my traditions. The question is whether Josiah recognizes the conflict...yet. He has moved away from Rome, by God's ordination. Will he move past his present synergist view to full Sovereignty and Reformed theology? God only knows.
The great thing is that whether a person is in the Roman church, EOC, Lutheran, Pentacostal, Reformed, Baptist, etc., God saves and works to sanctify us. With us all, there are traditions that God strips away and replaces with his word.
John Bunyan's allegory about Christian is true for all of us.

Josiah does not believe the will is free but instead bound to sin. That's not semi-pelagian or Arminian. Lutherans do not believe man cooperates or decides for their salvation. Please understand this.

 

[MennoSota]

Josiah does not believe the will is free but instead bound to sin. That's not semi-pelagian or Arminian. Lutherans do not believe man cooperates or decides for their salvation. Please understand this.

Read what he wrote.

 

[Albion]

Josiah does not believe the will is free but instead bound to sin.

Yes. That's true as concerns Man in his natural state. There has been no contradiction.

That's not semi-pelagian or Arminian. Lutherans do not believe man cooperates or decides for their salvation. Please understand this.

That is not only true but very fundamental in Lutheran theology.