It's abhorrent.

[MoreCoffee]

The Australian government is very far from ideal in its treatment of refuge applicants who arrive without valid entry documents nevertheless the policy of the government is not to detain children separated from their parents. Here's what the policy says on the matter:

To support the integrity of Australia’s immigration program three groups will be subject to mandatory detention:

– all unauthorised arrivals, for management of health, identity and security risks to the community

– unlawful non-citizens who present unacceptable risks to the community and

– unlawful non-citizens who have repeatedly refused to comply with their visa conditions​

Children, including juvenile foreign fishers and, where possible, their families, will not be detained in an immigration detention centre (IDC)

Detention that is indefinite or otherwise arbitrary is not acceptable and the length and conditions of detention, including the appropriateness of both the accommodation and the services provided, would be subject to regular review

Detention in Immigration Detention Centres is only to be used as a last resort and for the shortest practicable time

People in detention will be treated fairly and reasonably within the law, and

Conditions of detention will ensure the inherent dignity of the human person.​

 

[Albion]

Their support of Assad is one reason...

But there are other, non-religious, reasons for them to do that. Syria is important to Russias foreign policy no matter who is in power there.

Putin having a monk as his Spiritual Father is another...
State support of the Orthodox Faith at home and abroad is another...

When a former KGB agent promotes the same kind of expansionist policies that Russia was engaged in prior to World War I, I think it is not for the purposes of protecting Orthodoxy. But maybe we should check with the Orthodox Ukrainians and Georgians before we decide for sure, eh?

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

nm, I see what was being said.

 

[Arsenios]

But there are other, non-religious, reasons for them to do that.

Yes, there are, but if he were persecuting Christians, destroying Churches, saughtering people because they are Christians, then Putin would not support Assad, and might even invade his country...

When a former KGB agent promotes the same kind of expansionist policies that Russia was engaged in prior to World War I, I think it is not for the purposes of protecting Orthodoxy. But maybe we should check with the Orthodox Ukrainians and Georgians before we decide for sure, eh?

It is the persecution of Orthodox Christians in the Ukraine that motivated Putin to provide arms to them to protect them from the government persecution because they are Orthodox... You will find that doing what is good for Russia is Putin's motivation, and you will also find that he is doing so in as much of an Orthodox manner as he can...

Would that we should export freedom and limited government with his zeal for tending to Russia...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

The Australian government:

Three groups will be subject to mandatory detention:

all unauthorised arrivals,

Children... and, where possible, their families,
will not be detained in an immigration detention centre (IDC)

I thought this was what the US does...

We can only detain children for 20 days...
Families seeking asyum need more than 20 days for their cases to be heard...
So the children are given to foster families...

We simply do not have a law that permits "non-detention where possible" of families...
And we have the lawmakers protesting the law they are responsible for making...

Strange times indeed...

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

There's no comparison here. I don't buy the fact that the class of asylum seekers to whom this law applies comes to the States with no knowledge of what's happening. That's just absurd. One who works in Child Protection (a better comparison) has a job of ensuring that a child/minor is not in a living situation that will endanger him/her. If so, the child can be removed and placed in Foster Care - Government sponsored. Do you really mean to suggest that these children, who are crossing with their parents, are in a safe and secure living situation if left with the parents?

I am fed up with pictures of children in "cages" (a media word), and having the world believe this is their permanent condition, while their poor illegal border-crossing parents are taken away. The new viral picture is of a child crying while their parent is being patted down. CNN was waxing quite eloquent last night with the photographer about taking the picture that "will be the defining moment of this crisis". And it is sad - I don't like to see it any more than anyone else. But you know where else that happens? In child protection cases where a child is potentially being removed from an unsafe living environment. It's traumatic. It's abhorrent that people flood American borders, knowing what's going to happen! You want to be angry. Good. I am, too. Someone in the line-up needs to tell these parents to "Please stop! They're taking your children"! But I guess no-one wants to think that way, because the assumption is these particular adults are just too naive to know.

The children shown in photos at border crossings and later in detention do not appear to be victims of parental abuse, they are neatly clothed, appear to be fairly well fed, and give every evidence of strong attachment to their parent(s). And it is not the media that are separating children from their parents it is Donald and Jeff who are doing that by their policy.

 

[Albion]

Yes, there are, but if he were persecuting Christians, destroying Churches, saughtering people because they are Christians, then Putin would not support Assad, and might even invade his country...

That's quite a lot of guesswork with no real evidence to go on.

It is the persecution of Orthodox Christians in the Ukraine that motivated Putin to provide arms to them to protect them from the government persecution because they are Orthodox... You will find that doing what is good for Russia is Putin's motivation, and you will also find that he is doing so in as much of an Orthodox manner as he can...

And the invasion of Crimea, a strategic (not religious) target that the Russians have weaponized since annexing it shows their great concern for the persecution of Orthodox Christians...how? And the Georgians, significant numbers of whom are now under Russian occupation? Was the Orthodox government of Georgia mean to them, too?

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

The children shown in photos at border crossings and later in detention do not appear to be victims of parental abuse, they are neatly clothed, appear to be fairly well fed, and give every evidence of strong attachment to their parent(s). And it is not the media that are separating children from their parents it is Donald and Jeff who are doing that by their policy.

Like I said: "But I guess no-one wants to think that way, because the assumption is these particular adults are just too naive to know."
I DON'T BUY that these families DON'T KNOW what's happening. That was my point

 

[Arsenios]

It is not the media that are separating children from their parents.
It is Donald and Jeff who are doing that by their policy.

Rush says that Abraham Lincoln used to say "The fastest way to get rid of a bad law is to enforce it."

Pray for us to enact good immigration law...

And to repeal bad immigration law...

A little more compassion in the meantime is a good thing...

The children are held for up to 20 days while foster homes are found for them...

Do you want to just open our borders to all who wish to emmigrate to the US?

Or to increase their numbers?

Would 10 million per year be OK?

Arsenios

 

[Andrew]

So is the person who parks in a no-parking space and the person who jay-walks across a road and the person who crosses the border without valid entry papers. All break a law. Perhaps you and I break a law every now and then. Shall every law breaker be imprisoned and their children taken from them? How would a Christian who advocates such a thing explain it to the Lord on judgement day? Would such a Christian hope that God overlooked it, saw only Jesus' righteousness and forgot the wickedness in the heart that led to such harshness towards others? Do you think heaven is ruled with compassion and love on the thrown or is it all justice without mercy?

Do it the legal way, we still have to pay that parking ticket. A mother can have her kids taken away if she is putting her kids in danger by doing something illegal, like smoking crack while watching her kids or dangerously and illegally crossing a border when they could harmlessly obtain legal citizenship...
The Law is the Law and breaking the law can break up families.

 

[Lamb]

Do it the legal way, we still have to pay that parking ticket. A mother can have her kids taken away if she is putting her kids in danger by doing something illegal, like smoking crack while watching their kids or dangerously and illegally crossing a border when they could harmlessly obtain legal citizenship...
The Law is the Law and breaking the law can break up families.

Exactly!

Kids can be taken away for living in unclean conditions in the home too. Don't blame the government...blame the parents. There is a right way to go about doing things so they should be good Christians and teaching their children that!

 

[MoreCoffee]

Exactly!

Kids can be taken away for living in unclean conditions in the home too. Don't blame the government...blame the parents. There is a right way to go about doing things so they should be good Christians and teaching their children that!

It is the government's agents who take the children away from their parents after arresting the parents for entering the USA without valid entry papers. Their crime is lack of documentation.

 

[Andrew]

It is the government's agents who take the children away from their parents after arresting the parents for entering the USA without valid entry papers. Their crime is lack of documentation.

it happens to Americans every second... no one makes any whoop out of that.

 

[MoreCoffee]

it happens to Americans every second... no one makes any whoop out of that.

What you said is not true. USA residents and citizens go through court processes before their children can lawfully be taken from them. If they are taken to protect them from abuse then the parents have a right to a court process to determine if the allegation of abuse is true or not. These things are not being afforded the children and parents of refuge seekers who enter the USA without valid entry papers.

 

[Andrew]

What you said is not true. USA residents and citizens go through court processes before their children can lawfully be taken from them. If they are taken to protect them from abuse then the parents have a right to a court process to determine if the allegation of abuse is true or not. These things are not being afforded the children and parents of refuge seekers who enter the USA without valid entry papers.

No they get taken immediately

 

[MoreCoffee]

No they get taken immediately

Listen and see.

 

[Andrew]

Listen and see.

Have you ever seen 'Cops'?
https://youtu.be/vmZZlRVjuWw
At least watch 1:55

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

What am I missing here? Someone in the line-up to the border needs to tell these folks what's happening. The assumption being made is that this class of asylum-seekers is naive and uninformed. Am I to assume that some here think this is the case, and that the people coming to the border are in utter shock at what's happening? The ones shocked are these children who, through no fault of their own, have parents who are making a conscious decision to come knowing what's happening.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Listen and see.

[Consular Worker]
“They haven’t given her food yet because she wants to talk to her Aunt first. So I’m going to call her.”

At the end it appears to be just what she does, but it cuts off. The consular officer also wanted to talk with the other children - maybe to find out if they had relatives?

Of course it’s traumatic for the child. Her mother has told her something that she (the mother) has no knowledge of whether it’s true or not – the mother doesn’t know if the child can stay with the Aunt or not. What would have happened of the child couldn’t have made that call??? What I heard were children being taken from their parents, yes, but I didn’t hear the parents screaming “Don’t take my child!”. Don’t you think it would be utter chaos if the parents didn’t know?

 

[MoreCoffee]

[Consular Worker]
“They haven’t given her food yet because she wants to talk to her Aunt first. So I’m going to call her.”

At the end it appears to be just what she does, but it cuts off. The consular officer also wanted to talk with the other children - maybe to find out if they had relatives?

Of course it’s traumatic for the child. Her mother has told her something that she (the mother) has no knowledge of whether it’s true or not – the mother doesn’t know if the child can stay with the Aunt or not. What would have happened of the child couldn’t have made that call??? What I heard were children being taken from their parents, yes, but I didn’t hear the parents screaming “Don’t take my child!”. Don’t you think it would be utter chaos if the parents didn’t know?

I think that the children are in a detention centre and the parents are in custody elsewhere so the recording is of the children after the separation, maybe not too long after, perhaps a day or some days or maybe a fraction of a day, it is not clear from the recording but what is clear is that the children are in custody away from their parents.