The Triune God.

[Albion]

So if God is made up by three persons.
And persons means human or man

Stop right there. It does NOT mean that.

I cautioned you about this before. In our day, the word persons most often is taken to mean separate individual humans. That is definitely not the meaning as it is used in the Creeds and, hence, by Christians speaking of the nature of the Triune God since that time.

The Creeds, by the way, take pains to say that the persons are not separate beings while also not being just the same one but perceived by us mortals as one thing at one point in time and as another at a different time (in the Bible). The word from the Greek is actually persona which you will see, if you check it out, puts the matter into a different focus.

 

[Andrew]

Stop right there. It does NOT mean that.

I cautioned you about this before. In our day, the word persons most often is taken to mean separate individual humans. That is definitely not the meaning as it is used in the Creeds and, hence, by Christians speaking of the nature of the Triune God since that time. The Creeds, by the way, take pains to say that the persons are not separate beings while also not being just the same one but perceived by us mortals as one thing at one point in time and as another at a different time (in the Bible). The word from the Greek is actually persona which you will see, if you check it out, puts the matter into a different focus.

So these three personas are separated from each other not touching each other?
Like the triangle bobbles that are all called God in unison? I understand that the monotheistic God is an omnipresent spirit and is invisible so he put his spirit inside a man to preach to man and to lead an example for man and to spread his gifts of healing to man and then he died and was buried and rose again on the third day and hung out a bit before he ascended back to the spirit fatherGod and when he died he gave up his ghost for us to have and use to heal and do miracles but only after we give up ourselves to him. My dad is a father and a son and he is one person

 

[Albion]

So these three personas are separated from each other not touching each other?

The simplest way of putting it is to say that God is one being but of three somethings. Scripture is pretty clear about both of those points. So it is not the case that the three are different beings united in principle like a committee, not one God who has three different moods or roles, not one God who looked different to us at different times, and of course not three different beings. It is a mystery and all we can and should do is accept the Biblical information at face value.

Like the triangle bobbles that are all called God in unison? I understand that the monotheistic God is an omnipresent spirit and is invisible so he put his spirit inside a man to preach to man

If you are speaking of the creation of Adam and Eve, God did not put his spirit into man. He created man in the image and likeness of God, which is usually taken to mean that he endowed man with an immortal soul and reasoning abilities.

and to lead an example for man and to spread his gifts of healing to man and then he died. and was buried and rose again on the third day and hung out a bit before he ascended back to the spirit fatherGod and when he died he gave up his ghost for us to have and use to heal and do miracles but only after we give up ourselves to him. My dad is a father and a son and he is one person

That's all wrong--both the giving of his spirit to us to do miracles part and the part about God being both father and son in one person as though the trinity is only a matter of one divine being who takes on different jobs at different times. Scripture doesnt support any of that.

 

[Imalive]

So these three personas are separated from each other not touching each other?
Like the triangle bobbles that are all called God in unison? I understand that the monotheistic God is an omnipresent spirit and is invisible so he put his spirit inside a man to preach to man and to lead an example for man and to spread his gifts of healing to man and then he died and was buried and rose again on the third day and hung out a bit before he ascended back to the spirit fatherGod and when he died he gave up his ghost for us to have and use to heal and do miracles but only after we give up ourselves to him. My dad is a father and a son and he is one person

Jesus was 3 Persons in 1 body. That's the easiest way to grasp it for me. He was in the Father, the Father in Him, He only spoke what the Father told Him to, the Holy Spirit performed the miracles. Were there 3 persons walking on earth? No just one. If you want to see the Father you see Jesus. The fulness of the Godhead in one Body.

 

[Albion]

Jesus was 3 Persons in 1 body. That's the easiest way to grasp it for me. He was in the Father, the Father in Him, He only spoke what the Father told Him to, the Holy Spirit performed the miracles. Were there 3 persons walking on earth? No just one. If you want to see the Father you see Jesus. The fulness of the Godhead in one Body.

If that is your belief, then it is. However, that is not the Trinitarian faith even though you've worked 3 into the theory.

Jesus was a complete man and also was complete as one of the pre-existing persons of God. He had two natures, in other words. That, however, does not define the Trinity, just the Incarnation.

As for the Trinity, Christ was not some 3 in 1 construct, and most definitely was not himself the other two persons of the Blessed Trinity! As mentioned in post 81, the early church and Creeds were emphatic that a mistake not be made about this.

 

[Andrew]

Imalive made perfect sense out of the trinity Albion... why must you make things so difficult.

 

[Josiah]

The MYSTERY of the Trinity is this: God is Three yet God is one. Physics cannot embrace it, no illustration can adequately explain it. God is Tri (3) - une (1). That's it. That's all.

Here's how it eventually came to be worded:

We worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one: the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three Eternals, but one Eternal. As there are not three Uncreated nor three Incomprehensibles, but one Uncreated and one Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord. And yet not three Lords, but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, So are we forbidden by the Christian religion to say, There be three Gods, or three Lords.

The Father is made of none: neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son: neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits. And in this Trinity none is before or after other; none is greater or less than another; But the whole three Persons are coeternal together, and coequal: so that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshiped.


.

The view is NOT that Jesus = The Trinity. Jesus is embraced as the SECOND Person (the Son) incarnate.... God and equally man. There's no confusion of the Persons by embracing Jesus as the Father incarnate. Although, again, there is profound MYSTERY here and it is not possible to "wrap your brain" around this.

"Person" here ("persona") is not meant in a physical or human sense at all. And of course, God - not being physical - can't be "seen" unless He chooses to reveal Himself (and even then, we can't know if God is simply causing one to see something or actually causing light to be reflected; remember all creation/physics is under Him and entirely controllable by Him). The origin of this use of "persona" is very interesting (but not needed here), but the bottom line: it has nothing to do with a use of it in both you and I are "persons".



- Josiah




.

 

[Albion]

Imalive made perfect since out of the trinity Albion... why must you make things so difficult.

Nonsense. I did not condemn her for holding an unorthodox view of the matter. What I did do was give a short explanation of what the Trinitarian belief is--in as much as there continues to be some misunderstanding about this matter around here.

As for the ridiculous charge that I've made things difficult for anyone...I was not the one who re-started this debate. What's more, I haven't made anything more difficult UNLESS you mean to say, 'Please do not correct any erroneous assertions that may appear here on a Christian discussion board, because I (meaning you) would rather not have to face what the Bible teaches.'

The fact that the theory put forth by another poster made perfect sense to you doesn't say much. It makes as much sense as a half-dozen other rationalizations we have all heard at one time or another.

What matters is not how many theories sound logical enough, but what actually is true! For that, we have the word of God.

 

[Imalive]

If that is your belief, then it is. However, that is not the Trinitarian faith even though you've worked 3 into the theory.

Jesus was a complete man and also was complete as one of the pre-existing persons of God. He had two natures, in other words. That, however, does not define the Trinity, just the Incarnation.

As for the Trinity, Christ was not some 3 in 1 construct, and most definitely was not himself the other two persons of the Blessed Trinity! As mentioned in post 81, the early church and Creeds were emphatic that a mistake not be made about this.

Yes I don't say He was the Father or the Holy Spirit, just that looking at Jesus (in Whom the Father was also and He got baptized in the Spirit) to describe the Trinity makes it easier to grasp.

 

[Albion]

Yes I don't say He was the Father or the Holy Spirit, just that looking at Jesus (in Whom the Father was also and He got baptized in the Spirit) to describe the Trinity makes it easier to grasp.

I am glad to have your additional comments, my friend. However, what you've explained here appears to me to be different from what you posted before. For example this--

Jesus was 3 Persons in 1 body... The fulness of the Godhead in one Body.

I suppose that a reader could understand the second part of that statement in one of several different ways, but the first part was more problematic. It did say something other than that to see Jesus is to be made aware of the other two persons of the Godhead. So that was deserving of a response, I thought.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Jesus is God the Son incarnate. Jesus is not the incarnation of God the Father nor is Jesus the incarnation of God the Holy Spirit.

 

[Josiah]

The official teaching.....

We worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one: the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three Eternals, but one Eternal. As there are not three Uncreated nor three Incomprehensibles, but one Uncreated and one Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord. And yet not three Lords, but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, So are we forbidden by the Christian religion to say, There be three Gods, or three Lords.

The Father is made of none: neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son: neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits. And in this Trinity none is before or after other; none is greater or less than another; But the whole three Persons are coeternal together, and coequal: so that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshiped.


.

This is MYSTERY.
Our brains CANNOT comprehend this, physics CANNOT embrace this, illustrations CANNOT explain this. It's called the MYSTERY of the Trinity for a good reason.....



For 2,000 years, people have been trying to wrap their brains around this. Often feeling VERY frustrated (and when people are frustrated - including with each other - some unfortunate things an be conveyed). I wish we'd ALL be sensitive to that (and may that begin with me).



For nearly 400 years (that's a long time in human years!).... people TRIED. They looked to lots of Scriptures, noted what God has said about this and what He did NOT. People argued, debated, prayed, discussed, theorized, argued, prayed, theorized, prayed, debated, invented illustrations, argued, prayed, debated...... For 400 years (that's a long time in human years). Some just got "STUCK" in their opinion - thinking very highly of their own opinion. Some really did try to deal with the whole corpus of Scriptures on this (and increasingly realizing.... we're dealing with a very profound mystery here that God just didn't really explain, perhaps not because He can't explain it but we can't understand it).

A LOT of ideas/theories/explanations came to be rejected (eventually, even labeled "heresy") - but NONE of them went away, they are still with us to this day. Some people parrot them because they make sense to them entirely unaware that 1600 years ago, it was the ecumenical consensus after 400 years of debate by millions of Christians that the theory isn't correct. We shouldn't expect laity (like all us here) to be fully aware of the HISTORY to a lot of our theories. But there often IS history! After CENTURIES of prayer, discussion, debate, argument, prayer.... a consensus was reached, a SOLID and very BIBLICAL one was reached - both on what we can say and what we can't say. Adding, we read the final decision in English translation using our modern English definitions of the words (case in point: Persona in the Creed has nothing to do with our modern legal concept of a "person").

I might add that the Trinity is perhaps the single most universally, ecumenically embraced teaching in all of Christianity. Orthodox, Catholics, Lutherans, Calvinists, Anglicans, Methodist, Baptist... probably 99% of the world's denominations are in full, absolute, 100% agreement here. Kind of amazing. BUT.... every one of those ancient wrong theories.... well..... they are all still around, too. Often innocently.


We have a lot of smart, well-informed people here at CH. And I often am impressed by how clearly many communicate stuff that's actually quite complex. And on this topic, our usual "divisions" are gone because this is SUCH an ecumenically embraced teaching. And while profound, deep mystery - it's also kinda simple (if you don't think about it much, lol) TRI (3) - UNE (1). Note how the official declaration embraces both while not confusing or blending them. Smart. Embracing the MYSTERY while not explaning it away. Smart. Saying what the Bible says and not saying what the Bible doesn't. Smart.



.... so...... let's step back..... recognize we are LIMITED humans looking at a divine MYSTERY...... We should proclaim truth - while realizing we all struggle with that.




My half cent.


- Josiah




.

 

[Imalive]

The official teaching.....





This is MYSTERY.
Our brains CANNOT comprehend this, physics CANNOT embrace this, illustrations CANNOT explain this. It's called the MYSTERY of the Trinity for a good reason.....



For 2,000 years, people have been trying to wrap their brains around this. Often feeling VERY frustrated (and when people are frustrated - including with each other - some unfortunate things an be conveyed). I wish we'd ALL be sensitive to that (and may that begin with me).



For nearly 400 years (that's a long time in human years!).... people TRIED. They looked to lots of Scriptures, noted what God has said about this and what He did NOT. People argued, debated, prayed, discussed, theorized, argued, prayed, theorized, prayed, debated, invented illustrations, argued, prayed, debated...... For 400 years (that's a long time in human years). Some just got "STUCK" in their opinion - thinking very highly of their own opinion. Some really did try to deal with the whole corpus of Scriptures on this (and increasingly realizing.... we're dealing with a very profound mystery here that God just didn't really explain, perhaps not because He can't explain it but we can't understand it).

A LOT of ideas/theories/explanations came to be rejected (eventually, even labeled "heresy") - but NONE of them went away, they are still with us to this day. Some people parrot them because they make sense to them entirely unaware that 1600 years ago, it was the ecumenical consensus after 400 years of debate by millions of Christians that the theory isn't correct. We shouldn't expect laity (like all us here) to be fully aware of the HISTORY to a lot of our theories. But there often IS history! After CENTURIES of prayer, discussion, debate, argument, prayer.... a consensus was reached, a SOLID and very BIBLICAL one was reached - both on what we can say and what we can't say. Adding, we read the final decision in English translation using our modern English definitions of the words (case in point: Persona in the Creed has nothing to do with our modern legal concept of a "person").

I might add that the Trinity is perhaps the single most universally, ecumenically embraced teaching in all of Christianity. Orthodox, Catholics, Lutherans, Calvinists, Anglicans, Methodist, Baptist... probably 99% of the world's denominations are in full, absolute, 100% agreement here. Kind of amazing. BUT.... every one of those ancient wrong theories.... well..... they are all still around, too. Often innocently.


We have a lot of smart, well-informed people here at CH. And I often am impressed by how clearly many communicate stuff that's actually quite complex. And on this topic, our usual "divisions" are gone because this is SUCH an ecumenically embraced teaching. And while profound, deep mystery - it's also kinda simple (if you don't think about it much, lol) TRI (3) - UNE (1). Note how the official declaration embraces both while not confusing or blending them. Smart. Embracing the MYSTERY while not explaning it away. Smart. Saying what the Bible says and not saying what the Bible doesn't. Smart.



.... so...... let's step back..... recognize we are LIMITED humans looking at a divine MYSTERY...... We should proclaim truth - while realizing we all struggle with that.




My half cent.


- Josiah




.

Lol I can almost recite that one now. I've watched Saint Patrick a bit too often. His face is so funny when he says it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KQLfgaUoQCw

 

[Josiah]

Lol I can almost recite that one now. I've watched Saint Patrick a bit too often. His face is so funny when he says it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KQLfgaUoQCw

LOVE Lutheran Satire..... this one is especially good!


(And thanks for cooling things down a bit....)

 

[Andrew]

LOVE Lutheran Satire..... this one is especially good!


(And thanks for cooling things down a bit....)

Now the part that says "trinity is like how the same man can be a father and husband and an employer" I stated something along these lines earlier and I can agree with that. Is this what all trinitarians believe?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Now the part that says "trinity is like how the same man can be a father and husband and an employer" I stated something along these lines earlier and I can agree with that. Is this what all trinitarians believe?

No, it is modalism not Trinitarian belief.

 

[Andrew]

No, it is modalism not Trinitarian belief.

LOL darn

 

[MoreCoffee]

LOL darn

Take another look at the Athanasian Creed if you want a good statement of the doctrine of the Trinity.

 

[Andrew]

Okay well I did hear a Catholic one time say that the trinity is like water ice and vaper all being the same element

 

[Albion]

noone understands the doctrin of the Trinity. They say it's a mystery and just believe it.

I don't think that's correct to say. No one has been arguing in favor of the Trinitarian doctrine simply by saying 'just believe it.' There have been plenty of explanations given. Still, HOW God can be one but yet three is mysterious.

So, as has been said before, WHAT is believed is understandable, at least to the extent that we believe what the Bible teaches about it. But HOW it can be is another matter. That's beyond our full comprehension.

That's what Josiah was explaining. And it's what MC was explaining by making a comparison to Jesus being both a man and a God. But none of this is a plea that we suspend all thinking and just believe.