The Triune God.

[Andrew]

1 Timothy 3
[16]Without question, this is the great mystery of our faith: Christ was revealed in a human body *** and vindicated by the Spirit. He was seen by angels *** and announced to the nations. He was believed in throughout the world *** and taken to heaven in glory.

Yes, God shed his glory to be made in the likeness of man. God the Son is fully God and fully man.

What does that have to do with your rejection of the Triune God?

Because the apostles didnt preach it so it was never important or ever even mentioned as a fact. Why? Because it is not. In your eyes everyone before the 3rd century goes to hell, and if you state otherwise you are suggesting a man made heresy charge never taught either.

 

[MennoSota]

Because the apostles didnt preach it so it was never important or ever even mentioned as a fact. Why? Because it is not. In your eyes everyone before the 3rd century goes to hell, and if you state otherwise you are suggesting a man made heresy charge never taught either.

We would not know about the Triune God if it were not for scripture sharing this truth with us. Therefore your assertion regarding the apostles teaching is false. Merely because the church functioned underground due to persecution during the first 300 years does not mean that the Triune God is not taught over those 300 years.

 

[MennoSota]

Modalism is probably the most common theological error concerning the nature of God. It is a denial of the Trinity. Modalism states that God is a single person who, throughout biblical history, has revealed Himself in three modes or forms. Thus, God is a single person who first manifested himself in the mode of the Father in Old Testament times. At the incarnation, the mode was the Son; and after Jesus' ascension, the mode is the Holy Spirit. These modes are consecutive and never simultaneous. In other words, this view states that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit never all exist at the same time--only one after another. Modalism denies the distinctiveness of the three persons in the Trinity even though it retains the divinity of Christ.

Present-day groups that hold to forms of this error are the United Pentecostal and United Apostolic Churches. They deny the Trinity, teach that the name of God is Jesus, and require baptism for salvation. These modalist churches often accuse Trinitarians of teaching three gods. This is not what the Trinity is. The correct teaching of the Trinity is one God in three eternal coexistent persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
https://carm.org/modalism

 

[Andrew]

We would not know about the Triune God if it were not for scripture sharing this truth with us. Therefore your assertion regarding the apostles teaching is false. Merely because the church functioned underground due to persecution during the first 300 years does not mean that the Triune God is not taught over those 300 years.

No, the original apostolic church was persecuted not the man made church that became after it. The church is mentioned in revelation to repent and return to the original message and become perfect before the rapture can take place unless those days be shortened

 

[MennoSota]

These modes are consecutive and never simultaneous. In other words, this view states that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit never all exist at the same time--only one after another.

If this were the case, how did God say "This is my Son in whom I am well pleased."? Did Jesus simply throw his voice in a trick of vantriliquism?

 

[Andrew]

Modalism is probably the most common theological error concerning the nature of God. It is a denial of the Trinity. Modalism states that God is a single person who, throughout biblical history, has revealed Himself in three modes or forms. Thus, God is a single person who first manifested himself in the mode of the Father in Old Testament times. At the incarnation, the mode was the Son; and after Jesus' ascension, the mode is the Holy Spirit. These modes are consecutive and never simultaneous. In other words, this view states that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit never all exist at the same time--only one after another. Modalism denies the distinctiveness of the three persons in the Trinity even though it retains the divinity of Christ.

Present-day groups that hold to forms of this error are the United Pentecostal and United Apostolic Churches. They deny the Trinity, teach that the name of God is Jesus, and require baptism for salvation. These modalist churches often accuse Trinitarians of teaching three gods. This is not what the Trinity is. The correct teaching of the Trinity is one God in three eternal coexistent persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
https://carm.org/modalism

Christ was God as man. If ALL of God was crammed into one body well that would take away his omnipresence now wouldnt it? And if God died then who raised up the body? Jesus spoke as his father willed him to, he did all of his fathers will. Now he sits at the RIGHT side of God, he is pleased of God in all RIGHTeousness, they are one, your head would explode if you seriously COULD comprehend the mystery of GODLINESS, yet you claim to comprehend the Godhead in all fullness you must know all things beneath him as well, please do tell.

 

[MennoSota]

No, the original apostolic church was persecuted not the man made church that became after it. The church is mentioned in revelation to repent and return to the original message and become perfect before the rapture can take place unless those days be shortened

The church of the Apostles taught God's word, which teaches that God is triune. You are making an argument from silence, which is the same method atheists use.

 

[MennoSota]

Christ was God as man. If ALL of God was crammed into one body well that would take away his omnipresence now wouldnt it? And if God died then who raised up the body? Jesus spoke as his father willed him to, he did all of his fathers will. Now he sits at the RIGHT side of God, he is pleased of God in all RIGHTeousness, they are one, your head would explode if you seriously COULD comprehend the mystery of GODLINESS, yet you claim to comprehend the Godhead in all fullness you must know all things beneath him as well, please do tell.

I know that you promote a teaching not supported in scripture and rejected by Christians from the beginning.

 

[Andrew]

The church of the Apostles taught God's word, which teaches that God is triune. You are making an argument from silence, which is the same method atheists use.

What century did the teaching of trinity begin? If the Trinity is such a mystery as Godliness itself, why oh why was it even necessary to introduce?
All it did was help the process of persecution by order of Rome (thanks to Constantine, he gave Rome authority over Christianity under Roman Law) under the charge of heresy to destroy the Christians who would not forsake the mystery of God nor the oneness of God that has always been the monotheistic faith of Abraham, "hear o Israel, the Lord your God is one"
You can not shake off the scales over your eyes you only follow the traditions of man and by man made religious Christianity

 

[Andrew]

I know that you promote a teaching not supported in scripture and rejected by Christians from the beginning.

Funny how I was agreeing with you against modalism and you missed it

 

[MennoSota]

What century did the teaching of trinity begin? If the Trinity is such a mystery as Godliness itself, why oh why was it even necessary to introduce?
All it did was help the process of persecution by order of Rome under the charge of heresy to destroy the Christians who would not forsake the mystery of God nor the oneness of God that has always been the monotheistic faith of Abraham, "hear o Israel, the Lord your God is one"
You can not shake off the scales over your eyes you only follow the traditions of man and by man made religious Christianity

Genesis 1 gives us the seed of the Triune God and God builds upon this throughout the milleniums.
I am not a member of the Roman church, but human politics in Rome does cause many problems with that particular church as power became more important than God.

God spoke to God when the person of the Son was on earth and the person of the Father was in heaven. The theory of modalism cannot be accurate. Yeshua said we should baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. One being, three persons. It oozes through scripture, but you deny it.

 

[TurtleHare]

Genesis 1 gives us the seed of the Triune God and God builds upon this throughout the milleniums.
I am not a member of the Roman church, but human politics in Rome does cause many problems with that particular church as power became more important than God.

God spoke to God when the person of the Son was on earth and the person of the Father was in heaven. The theory of modalism cannot be accurate. Yeshua said we should baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. One being, three persons. It oozes through scripture, but you deny it.

Yep, when Jesus tells us how to baptize "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," we should listen to him as he's the authority on the topic! Trinity --believe it, denying it risks your salvation as you believe in some false god.

 

[Andrew]

Genesis 1 gives us the seed of the Triune God and God builds upon this throughout the milleniums.
I am not a member of the Roman church, but human politics in Rome does cause many problems with that particular church as power became more important than God.

God spoke to God when the person of the Son was on earth and the person of the Father was in heaven. The theory of modalism cannot be accurate. Yeshua said we should baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. One being, three persons. It oozes through scripture, but you deny it.

This non plural name is "Jesus" who is the full Godhead bodily, his is the Name for those titles, he is called the eternal father, he could say "in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" because he was the Godhead bodily. If he would have said "in my name and in my Fathers name and the Holy Spirits name" then we would have plural names. I wont consider the "Stop in the name of love" "of law" argument because that might be a more recent term that wasnt around back then, im not using it.
As for man other than Jesus, they all must say in HIS name. This oozes well too.
Acts 2:38
Acts 10:48
Acts 8:12
Acts 8:16
Acts 19:5
Acts 22:16
1 Corinthians 6:11

Here is some interesting versus as well.
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
Proverbs 8:22-31

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In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:1-3
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Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God. Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?
Isaiah 43:10-13

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That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
1 John 1:1-2

 

[MennoSota]

Genesis 1:26
Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.

Genesis 11:7
*Come, let us go down and there confuse their language, so that they may not understand one another's speech."

One being, three persons.

Throughout the Hebrew Bible we see the plurality of God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit. These are not modes of one God. These are three persons of one being. Each a person yet one being we recognize as God.

I will leave you to your modalism. It is the teaching of many cults such as the Church of God (Garner Ted Armstrong) and Hebrew Roots.

 

[Andrew]

Genesis 1:26
Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.

Genesis 11:7
*Come, let us go down and there confuse their language, so that they may not understand one another's speech."

One being, three persons.

Throughout the Hebrew Bible we see the plurality of God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit. These are not modes of one God. These are three persons of one being. Each a person yet one being we recognize as God.

I will leave you to your modalism. It is the teaching of many cults such as the Church of God (Garner Ted Armstrong) and Hebrew Roots.

So God is like a trio, when they come down the invisible God acts through the son God and the Holy Spirit empowers the son... Like super heros...
I believe the Sons of God are his plurals Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
Genesis 3:22-24

 

[MennoSota]

So God is like a trio, when they come down the invisible God acts through the son God and the Holy Spirit empowers the son... Like super heros...
I believe the Sons of God are his plurals Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
Genesis 3:22-24

You can believe whatever you want, it's just not something presented in God's word.

 

[Albion]

That does seem to be the 'bottom line' for this entire discussion. Theories and speculation abound, but the only problem is that they aren't what the Bible teaches.



And one more little note...I have always paused when I hit upon some idea that I think makes a complicated and controversial issue suddenly all simple. I ask myself this--

'If it's so clear, why have none (or hardly any) of the great minds of all Christian history figured it out like I just did?' If you don't have a ready answer for that, it needs to be reconsidered.

 

[Andrew]

That does seem to be the 'bottom line' for this entire discussion. Theories and speculation abound, but the only problem is that they aren't what the Bible teaches.



And one more little note...I have always paused when I hit upon some idea that I think makes a complicated and controversial issue suddenly all simple. I ask myself this--

'If it's so clear, why have none (or hardly any) of the great minds of all Christian history figured it out like I just did?' If you don't have a ready answer for that, it needs to be reconsidered.

Because most Christians blinding follow man made theology. It was all supposed to be this simple, God is of peace not confusion, thats why its so hard for you to break through "oh well it can be that easy i mean, ill just go along with the other mans ideas"

 

[Lamb]

Because most Christians blinding follow man made theology. It was all supposed to be this simple, God is of peace not confusion, thats why its so hard for you to break through "oh well it can be that easy i mean, ill just go along with the other mans ideas"

You do realize that people could say that you blindly follow man made theology as well? Did God ever say He was a simple God? No.

 

[Josiah]

IMO, somewhere pretty early on in Christianity, we lost our sense of MYSTERY and elevated our egos to the level of God.

IMO, it's pretty likely God has told us in his holy, inscripturated words (the Scriptures) what He wanted us to know and perhaps what He knows we can understand. Christians were once satisfied with that. Now, one of the things I respect about the Doctrine of the Trinity is that MOSTLY it just accepts the mystery of what we know: God is 3 (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) and God is 1. BOTH are fully true. Thus God is Tri - Une, a Trinity. While I'd admit a bit of the language in the Anthanasian Creed maybe is speculative, the point that the Creed strives SO hard (almost laughably hard) to achieve is to say BOTH without limiting either. Not limiting such to human theories or concepts or "physics." The doctrine is almost entirely a rejection of theories that conflict with Scripture and instead a simple echo of Scripture. Wise. I think the same thing is true of the embrace of the TWO full natures of Christ. There's an embrace of MYSTERY.

The thing is: people ask questions. And that's perfectly okay except that the one who asks a question tend to appoint the self same to answer it - then requires that God agrees with self in order for God to be as smart as self is. And people think that God has to be shoved into OUR concepts, OUR theories, OUR philosophies - even OUR illustrations (and God often is too big to fit into these human boxes).

My Dad speaks of "The fine art of shutting up." I often think that applies to theology, too. Takes humility, however..... and humans have a REALLY hard time with that (I should know).



- Josiah