Salvation - Part 2

[Josiah]

The Lord, Jesus Christ, said "repent and believe the gospel", was he mistaken?

Nope.

What is mistaken is
1) the word "kai" mandates chronological sequence
2) Fallen, dead man can do these things.
Those are what is mistaken.

The Holy Spirit convicts us of sin - not dead, fallen, unregenerate folks...
The Holy Spirit gives the free gift of faith, not dead fallen man to himself.


On Sunday, you will profess that the Holy Spirit is the Lord and GIVER of life. Do you believe that? Or do you hold that dead, fallen man steals it - by his own actions and works?

 

[Arsenios]

Nope.

What is mistaken is
1) the word "kai" mandates chronological sequence
2) Fallen, dead man can do these things.
Those are what is mistaken.

The Holy Spirit convicts us of sin - not dead, fallen, unregenerate folks...
The Holy Spirit gives the free gift of faith, not dead fallen man to himself.


On Sunday, you will profess that the Holy Spirit is the Lord and GIVER of life. Do you believe that? Or do you hold that dead, fallen man steals it - by his own actions and works?

Mar 1:15
And saying,
"That the time is fulfilled,
and
the Kingdom of God has drawn nigh:
Be ye repenting,
and
be ye believing the Gospel."

So Christ comes and says to unsaved men:
Repent and Believe...

Are they able to do so?

Arsenios

 

[Lamb]

Mar 1:15
And saying,
"That the time is fulfilled,
and
the Kingdom of God has drawn nigh:
Be ye repenting,
and
be ye believing the Gospel."

So Christ comes and says to unsaved men:
Repent and Believe...

Are they able to do so?

Arsenios

God said, "Let there be light." Was He not able to do that? Same thing when Jesus said, "Repent and believe." It's Him working in us to bring us to repentance and faith to believe.

 

[Arsenios]

God said, "Let there be light." Was He not able to do that? Same thing when Jesus said, "Repent and believe." It's Him working in us to bring us to repentance and faith to believe.

The original Call to Repentance was to His People, and being rejected, then that Call went to the Gentiles...
And the simple fact is that not all RECEIVED - eg believed and obeyed - that call when they heard it...
And not even John the Baptist the greatest of the Prophets who made that Call was "Saved"...
He was not Saved because Christ did not Baptize him, and later said that the least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than John...
John the Baptist was the Crown of the Prophets...

So the question is not 'Can God do something?" Because of course He can...
God is NOT the one in question regarding Salvation - But YOU are, and I am...
And the life one lives on earth is the basis of Christ's Salvation and Judgement...
God will indeed restore His Creation, and the only question from a human perspective is: "Will I be included or excluded?"

It has never been a question of: "Can I make myself good enough..." Clearly fallen man cannot...
"For in Thy Sight shall no man be justified..."
The real question is: "Can I make myself DEAR enough that God should Save me..."
And THAT "dear enough" you can force upon yourself by repenting from evil...
All men CAN turn from evil as they understand it... [demoniacs not so much]
But few are they who are WILLING to do so...
But IF one is willing to TRY, God WILL be your reward...
And the greater the try, the greater the reward...
The greatest Gifts come with the greatest efforts...
The efforts do NOT EARN the Gifts...
Yet God rewards our desire for Good and our scorn for evils in our soul...
Grace is purchased with alms...
The 5 Wise Virgins entered the Bridal Chamber...
The 5 foolish virgins were sent out to purchase more Oil...
"Sell all and give to the poor, and you will have riches in heaven..."
Christ's Own Words...

The question remains: Are the un-Saved ABLE to obey Christ's command to repent and believe?
We already know that the Jews did not...
Were they able or not?
They were unwilling...

And you are right:
ALL good is of God...
Without him we can do nothing...
Yet men do evil...


Arsenios

 

[Josiah]

The real question is: "Can I make myself DEAR enough that God should Save me..."

AHHH, now I understand why you hold that self saves self...


No, the dead, atheistic, enemy of God CANNOT make HIMSELF "dear" to God so that God will reward his dearness with salvation/heaven. Dead man - void of God, void of the Holy Spirit, void of spiritual life, void of faith - cannot and will not make himself dear enough to cause salvation for himself.


1 Corinthians 2:14
Romans 9:16
Ephesians 2:8-9
1 Corinthians 12:3


The keystone point of Christianity is that all need to be SAVED (not given a pill, not given a helping hand, not given an opportunity to prove themselves dear).... and that God has supplied the Savior and His name is Jesus (not you).




.

 

[Lamb]

The real question is: "Can I make myself DEAR enough that God should Save me..."
And THAT "dear enough" you can force upon yourself by repenting from evil...

You cannot make yourself dear enough for God to save you.

For God so loved the world...we are dear to Him because we are His creation so you cannot make yourself anything more in order to gain something from God. Thankfully God has a plan to save you without you trying to earn it. Look and see what He has done.

 

[MennoSota]

We are as filthy rags in God's sight. We cannot make ourselves "dear enough" by repenting so that God is moved to save us.
It is like having a mass killer go to the judge and declare his repentance in the hopes the he will become "dear enough" for the judge to declare him not guilty and set him free.
There is no "dear enough." There is only God's choice to substitute Jesus atonement for the sinner so the debt is paid and the sinner is pardoned. Or... God's choice to not atone for the sinner so that the debt is owed and the sinner pays the price.
"Dear enough" is a non-biblical heresy.

 

[Arsenios]

AHHH, now I understand why you hold that self saves self...

Yes - You turn from evil and see the Good, and God will take pity on you, because you cannot do good of yourself, for you do not have Life in you...

No, the dead, atheistic, enemy of God CANNOT make HIMSELF "dear" to God so that God will reward his dearness with salvation/heaven.

Well, perhaps DEAR is not the right word for this...

You have to make yourself PITIABLE before God, that God take pity on you...

Dead man - void of God, void of the Holy Spirit, void of spiritual life, void of faith - cannot and will not make himself dear enough to cause salvation for himself.

I agree - DEAR means having something precious to give God, and repentance but confesses our inability to do good, and our willingness to stop doing evil... So in repentance, we become PITIABLE BEFORE GOD... As long as we embrace evil, God will not pity us, but IF we turn from evil to do good, God WILL pity us...

The keystone point of Christianity is that all need to be SAVED (not given a pill, not given a helping hand, not given an opportunity to prove themselves dear).... and that God has supplied the Savior and His name is Jesus (not you).

The keystone of Christianity is Christ, and that all need Life...
So you are right, we need Salvation from death...
Salvation is not a stand alone word, you know...
And the cause of the shadow of death in which we walk is sin...
And because we are born wounded unto death, we sin...
And because we sin, we walk into death...
So we can turn from sin, at the cost of life on earth...
And in this pitiable effort that costs us our life, God will take pity on us...
But only IF we are willing to become pitiable...
God does not take pity on the pitiless...
He does not forgive those who do not forgive...

Our dearness to God is how pitiable we make ourselves...
In our inability to do good when we stop doing evil...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

We are as filthy rags in God's sight. We cannot make ourselves "dear enough" by repenting so that God is moved to save us.
It is like having a mass killer go to the judge and declare his repentance in the hopes the he will become "dear enough" for the judge to declare him not guilty and set him free.
There is no "dear enough." There is only God's choice to substitute Jesus atonement for the sinner so the debt is paid and the sinner is pardoned. Or... God's choice to not atone for the sinner so that the debt is owed and the sinner pays the price.
"Dear enough" is a non-biblical heresy.

Would you settle for "PITIABLE" instead of "DEAR"?

I was running late this morning and did not come up with a better terem that dear...

Make yourself pitiable before God and God will take pity on you...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

You cannot make yourself dear enough for God to save you.

Sorry for a bad choice of words -

You CAN make yourself PITIABLE enough before God to have Mercy on you...

The Greek term "Mercy" - ELEOS - Means pity, mercy, or compassion.

IN OTHER WORDS, my dear Brothers and Sisters:

We do NOT make ourselves WORTHY of God's Mercy/Pity

We make ourselves UNWORTHY enough for His Pity...

One can ONLY renounce the world...
God alone is able to give Life...
You have to lose your life to have Life...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

You guys sure jumped quickly on the term DEAR...
For which you are all DEAR to me!

Arsenios

 

[Lamb]

Sorry for a bad choice of words -

You CAN make yourself PITIABLE enough before God to have Mercy on you...

The Greek term "Mercy" - ELEOS - Means pity, mercy, or compassion.

IN OTHER WORDS, my dear Brothers and Sisters:

We do NOT make ourselves WORTHY of God's Mercy/Pity

We make ourselves UNWORTHY enough for His Pity...

One can ONLY renounce the world...
God alone is able to give Life...
You have to lose your life to have Life...


Arsenios

You keep insisting that IF ONLY WE...THEN GOD WILL...

That's not how God has salvation laid out for us.

 

[MennoSota]

Would you settle for "PITIABLE" instead of "DEAR"?

I was running late this morning and did not come up with a better terem that dear...

Make yourself pitiable before God and God will take pity on you...

Arsenios

You cannot make yourself pitiable either.
You are a condemned sinner. Either the judge chooses to pardon or he chooses not to pardon. It is His choice, with no influence from you as to the decision He makes.
If you repent, it is entirely because God chose for you to repent and you can do no other thing than to repent. If you do not repent it is because God chose to leave you dead in your trespasses and sins.
You cannot effect the outcome of God's will.

 

[MennoSota]

Augustine and Pelagius had this argument centuries ago. For whatever reason, Pelagianism will not die.
https://www.monergism.com/augustine-and-pelagius

 

[MoreCoffee]

You keep insisting that IF ONLY WE...THEN GOD WILL...

That's not how God has salvation laid out for us.

I like your turkey-sheep avatar. I wonder, is it a shurkry or a teep?

If only we believed God .... then God will ... Romans 10:9

If only we kept Jesus' commandments ... then Jesus will ... John 15:10

 

[Arsenios]

You keep insisting that IF ONLY WE...THEN GOD WILL...

That's not how God has salvation laid out for us.

It is called a Covenant...

Two parties...

Each doing what it promises...

Or not...

God is not the 'or not'...

But you and I are...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

You cannot make yourself pitiable either.

It takes humility...
The pride of Lucifer brought it down...
The humility of Adam

You are a condemned sinner.

Not your call, Menno...

God will judge...

The living and the dead...

He will judge you, and He will judge me, and He will judge us all...

Either the judge chooses to pardon or he chooses not to pardon.

And once pardoned, He will grant Salvation or He will not...

It is His choice, with no influence from you as to the decision He makes.

Not Biblical - We will be judged according to our DEEDS...

If you repent, it is entirely because God chose for you to repent and you can do no other thing than to repent.

Then you make God a sinner, because if true, if I do NOT repent, it is God's fault for not choosing me to repent...

If you do not repent it is because God chose to leave you dead in your trespasses and sins.

Unlike you, I do not blame God choices for MY sins...

I take responsibility for my sins...

And God takes responsibility for my Salvation...

You cannot effect the outcome of God's will.

I can only seek His Will and turn from my own sins...

This Faith is a struggle against evil to the end...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

It takes humility...
The pride of Lucifer brought it down...
The humility of Adam



Not your call, Menno...

God will judge...

The living and the dead...

He will judge you, and He will judge me, and He will judge us all...



And once pardoned, He will grant Salvation of He will not...



Not Biblical - We will be judged according to our DEEDS...



Then you make God a sinner, because if true, if I do NOT repent, it is God's fault for not choosing me to repent...



Unlike you, I do not blame God choices for MY sins...

I take responsibility for my sins...

And God takes responsibility for my Salvation...


Arsenios
You cannot effect the outcome of God's will.

Unlike you, I do not throw grace out the door while clinging to my self-righteousness to somehow change my position from sinner to saint in God's eyes.
I know that I am corrupt, as John Newton said, "a wretch like me." I know that except God would choose to atone for my sin by his grace alone, I would have no hope.
Arsenios, you keep wanting to add your own achievement onto the pile in hopes of winning God's favor. It's like the kid who leaves milk and cookies for Santa Clause in case it wins him a special toy.
I cannot express enough how far you have removed yourself from grace with your position on salvation.

 

[Lamb]

It is called a Covenant...

Two parties...

Each doing what it promises...

Or not...

God is not the 'or not'...

But you and I are...


Arsenios

Yes, let's talk covenant then.

God did not make billions of covenants with His people, did He? God didn't make separate individual covenants where you're expected to fulfill something for Him. You didn't have to make a sacrifice of blood which is what God commanded for the covenant to be sealed, did you? So, take another look at this covenant from God and see what actually transpired.

The Old covenants were shadows of the the one to come, the new covenant (or testament) that Jesus fulfilled. Jesus, the perfect unblemished lamb, shed His blood and the sacrifice was accepted by God. We enter into this covenant that God began and fulfilled without our help by His grace and not by anything we do to merit it. You have heard that Jesus is the mediator. Yet you think you still have to do something to appease God to join Him. Why? Why do you eliminate Jesus and what He has done?

It isn't IF ONLY WE...THEN GOD WILL...

It is Jesus did.... and God will

Your salvation isn't dependent upon you but upon the Savior Jesus. That's what Josiah keeps trying to explain to you and that's what Menno keeps trying to tell you...that you don't contribute any part. It's God's work and you reap the benefits because He gives you faith to believe.

 

[MoreCoffee]

if you believe that God has raised Jesus up from the dead, [then] you shall be saved.

One message says:

You keep insisting that IF ONLY WE...THEN GOD WILL...

That's not how God has salvation laid out for us.​

But that message is wrong.

Holy scripture does say "If only we ... then God will ..."

Here's an example

If only we believed God .... then God will ... Romans 10:9 10:9 if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and if you believe in your heart that God has raised him up from the dead, [then] you shall be saved.​

And another example

If only we kept Jesus' commandments ... then Jesus will ... John 15:10 If you keep my commandments, [then] you shall abide in my love, just as I also have kept my Father's commandments and I abide in his love.​

It's evident that the gospel does work with an if you do that then God will do this where the this that God does is save and grant that you will aide in God's love

I posted this idea earlier but did not spell out what the verses say and maybe the importance of the verses could be overlooked that way so now I have quoted the verses and pointed to what they have to say in their "if only we would ... then God will ..." form.