Salvation - Part 2

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Albion

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The perfecting of the Saints is pretty much a matter between God and the one being perfected...

At least that is my current take...

After one's major and persistent life sins are finally put to rest, the character of one's sins shifts...

As does the manner of one's walk in vigilance and intercession...


Arsenios

The problem from my POV is that no one is perfect in this life or capable of being made perfect in this life. Even the greatest of the saints was not actually perfect.

That being the case, we are not entitled to heaven...EXCEPT that we have a Savior who was perfect. We are forgiven, not perfected.

To that extent, I am inclined to disagree with both Eastern Christianity and John Wesley and the churches of his following.
 

Josiah

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The problem from my POV is that no one is perfect in this life or capable of being made perfect in this life. Even the greatest of the saints was not actually perfect.

That being the case, we are not entitled to heaven...EXCEPT that we have a Savior who was perfect. We are forgiven, not perfected.

To that extent, I am inclined to disagree with both Eastern Christianity and John Wesley and the churches of his following.



Yup.

What is it that Jesus said? "There is NO ONE who is good but God alone."
What is it that Paul by inspiration penned? "No one is righteous, no, not even one." "If any says he is without sin he is a liar and makes God a liar."


Some seem to want to make self as good as possible in order to make God's mercy as meaningless as possible... make self big, make Christ small.




Josiah said:
MoreCoffee,

Read these

https://www.gotquestions.org/Job-blameless-upright.html

https://www.bibleask.org/word-perfec...n-job-sinless/



.... I continue to see the obsession some have to make man as big as possible and Christ as small as possible.... disturbing, IMO


.



.
 

Arsenios

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Yup.... every time,
Jesus is the Savior ...
we are not.

Yup... every time...

We repent...

Jesus Saves...

Arsenios
 
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Arsenios

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The problem from my POV is that no one is perfect in this life or capable of being made perfect in this life. Even the greatest of the saints was not actually perfect.

That being the case, we are not entitled to heaven...EXCEPT that we have a Savior who was perfect. We are forgiven, not perfected.

To that extent, I am inclined to disagree with both Eastern Christianity and John Wesley and the churches of his following.

Well, if Salvation is a matter of union with God, and that is given by degrees according to repentance, then since God is infinite, there is always higher, and there is no upper limit to Sanctification by God - iow WE are the only LIMITING factor...

Scripture does instruct us to be perfect:

Matt 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect,
even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


And it tells us how:

Matt 19:21
Jesus said unto him,
If thou wilt be perfect,
go and sell that thou hast,
and give to the poor,
and thou shalt have treasure in heaven:
and come and follow me.


And it tells us how perfect:

Luke 6:40
The disciple is not above his master:
but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.


Christ's words on the perfecting of the disciple being discipled...

Why did Christ command his Apostles to disciple all the nations?

Were they discipled only to disciple the already saved?

Or are the nations not yet saved apart from this discipling?


Arsenios
 

Lamb

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Josiah

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Yup... every time...

We repent...

Jesus Saves...

Arsenios


1. ... sooooo, we are saved because we repented and therefore God rewarded that good work. Thus, the Savior is yourself.... the means is a good work you performed. That seems to be a full denial of the Gospel and the whole foundation of Christianity.

2. .... soooo, one who is DEAD, who is an atheist who denies the real God even exists, who denies that this God (who doesn't exist) has a will that is wise and right.... will confess to this God (who they reject even exists) and confess how they have violated God's wise will (which isn't wise and doesn't even exist), and because of the Holy Spirit (which he doesn't have) has faith (which he doesn't have) and thus looks to Christ (who he denies ever even lived and certainly denies is the Savior) for forgiveness (which God can't give and doesn't need to give) and follows the Holy Spirit (which he doesn't have) leading and empowering him in a new life. Hum..... That seems not only unbiblical but absurd.



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John 14:15 No one can come to the Father except through me.

1 Corinthians 12:3 and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
 

Albion

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Well, if Salvation is a matter of union with God, and that is given by degrees according to repentance, then since God is infinite, there is always higher, and there is no upper limit to Sanctification by God - iow WE are the only LIMITING factor...
You know that, in my post, I was speaking of the possibility of perfection in this life.

Scripture does instruct us to be perfect:
It would be more accurate to say that it instructs us to strive in that direction. Obviously Matt 5:48 which you cited cannot be taken literally or else it would be saying that we can become the same as the Father is, which I am sure you do not think is possible.
 

Josiah

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It would be more accurate to say that it instructs us to strive in that direction. Obviously Matt 5:48 which you cited cannot be taken literally or else it would be saying that we can become the same as the Father is, which I am sure you do not think is possible.


That's the point.....

The "bar" is to be sin free, as perfect as God is, as holy as God is, as loving as God is..... in EVERYTHING... in thought, word and deed..... in what is done/felt/said and left NOT done/felt/said... we ALWAYS and PERFECT "hit the mark" (to fall short of that is to be sin - indeed, that's the definition of the word "sin"). So.... what what our friend is meant to do with this is realize the reality - He cannot be what is demanded.... he NEEDS mercy..... he NEEDS forgiveness... he NEEDS the Savior to rescue him from the reality. In Justification, the law is MEANT to kill, to destroy our ego and pride and Phariseeism.... to bring us to our knees... The Law is an complete failure and the Devil wins if we read the Law and say "I already do that.... I don't need no god.... I don't need no Savior.... I don't need no mercy.... Cuz I got me, babe.... jsut give me sufficient time and a little help from a Friend.... and bingo - I'm just like God (just as Satan tried to get Adam and Eve). "If we could be saved by works of the law, then Christ died for no purpose" (I read that somewhere) - and that's EXACTLY what the devil wants us to think. BUT if the Law succeeds, then we look not in the mirror but to the Cross.... we despare of self and cling to Christ. "Nothing in my hands I bring, simply to thy cross I cling" (sang that somewhere).




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Josiah

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What is the Law?


The Law is the will of God - flowing from His absolute perfection and justice. It is, in essence, that we be as He is - not in terms of essence but character.


Psalm 51:5 "I was sinful at birth"

Genesis 8:21, "Every inclination of man's heart is evil from childhood."

Romans 5:12, "Sin entered the world through one man's sin, and death through sin, and therefore death came to all men for all have sinned."

First John 3:4, "Sin is lawlessness"

Romans 3:12, "There is no one who does good, not even one."

Mark 10:18, "There is none who is good but God exclusively."

First John 1:10, "If we claim we have no sin, we make God a liar and His word is not in us."

There are at least 613 laws specifically written just in the Old Testament. We think often of the Ten Commandments but actually there are many, many more just in the OT- and still more in the NT. The Law is not "thou shalt try" or "Be better than the idiot bozo next door." It's be equal to God in morality, love and holiness. There's NOTHING in Scripture that says, "If you didn't mean to sin, ergo you didn't." There's NOTHING in Scripture about "If you don't feel remorse for your sin ERGO you never sinned." There's NOTHING in Scripture that says, "But those under the age of X cannot sin cuz they are equal to God" or "But those under the age of X aren't accountable for their sins."



What does the Law mandate?



Essentially, that our character be identical to His.



Matthew 5:48, "You must be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

1 Peter 1:16, "You must be holy even as God in heaven is holy."

John 15:12, "Love all people just as I (Jesus) first loved you."

Ephesians 4:32, "forgiving one another, just as God in Christ first forgave you."

First John 2:6, "Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did."

Philippians 2:5, "You must have the same attitude that Christ did."


The question is: Have you attained this? Absolutely, perfectly.... in thought, word and deed.... 24/7


What is "Sin"?


"Sin" literally means "to miss the mark."

In ancient Greece, if an archer missed the target, the therefore "sinned" because he missed the mark, missed the target. The Bible says "ALL fall short." IF you have absolutely, perfectly, divinely, 24/7 "hit" all the targets above, then you are obedient and free of sin. Otherwise...... Well, the Bible would be correct and not lying when it says that "NO ONE is righteous, no, not even one." "For ALL fall short." "NO ONE is good." "If you claim to have no sin (you hit the mark), then you lie and call God a liar."

Sin = "Falling short" "Missing the mark"

Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, missing the mark."



The question is: Do you "hit the mark" (-perfectly, absolutely, 24/7, in thought, word and deed) OR do you fall short (and thus have sin and NEED the Savior to SAVE you)?


If you answer, "Yup - I'm just like God - no sin." Then look in the Mirror. You need no God, no mercy, no forgiveness, no Savior. You got you, babe.

For the rest of us, there is the Gospel of the Savior. We look not to the one in the mirror but the One on the Cross.






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MoreCoffee

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The law has parts; there are laws about ceremonies and sacrifices, there are laws about government and taxes, there are laws about behaviour and morals, all of the laws are the Law but not all of the laws are of equal value and of equal duration. For example, the laws about sacrifices were valid and endured until Christ's sacrifice on the cross was completed then the veil in the temple was rent in two after that those laws were abrogated. Another example, there were laws about worshipping in Jerusalem and taking sacrifices there as well as paying a tithe to support the tribe of Levi and paying taxes for the upkeep of the temple after Jesus's work was finished those laws were abrogated no one need anymore to pay a tithe for Levi nor taxes for the upkeep of the temple. But regarding the laws about behaviour and morals things are different. It is still wicked to kill, steal, be an adulterer, covet the goods of your neighbour, covet your neighbour's wife. These moral and behavioural laws remain intact. Obedience to them is expected of a Christian and persistent disobedience in any of them is a serious sin that ought to rise questions about the truthfulness of a person's profession of Christian faith and living a Christian life marked by holiness.

So when a person says "I believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and saviour" it is right to expect that such a person will seek to obey God in the matters raised by, for example, the ten commandments and especially in the matters raised by the two great commandments.

One cannot credibly claim to be a Christian and yet willingly as well as frequently disobey the prohibitions on murder, theft, adultery, lying, and coveting.

Faith without works is dead. Faith that has no works does not save anybody.
 

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Arsenios

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You can't repent unless God first does something. Right?

God Calls us to repentance...
Then we repent...
Or not...

Some seed falls on the road and is eaten by crows...
Some falls on shallow soil and withers with heat...
Some falls among thorns and weeds...
Some falls on good rich soil...

Your choice...


Arsenios
 

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You know that, in my post, I was speaking of the possibility of perfection in this life.

Yes...

It would be more accurate to say that it instructs us to strive in that direction. Obviously Matt 5:48 which you cited cannot be taken literally or else it would be saying that we can become the same as the Father is, which I am sure you do not think is possible.

Perfection in this life is not becoming God...

It means overcoming sin in your own soul...

Where sin no longer rules in you...

It may or may not be associated with Gifts...

It certainly can be and usually is...

John wrote Christ's words of such as these:

Rev 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God,
and he shall go no more out:
and I will write upon him the name of my God,
and the name of the city of my God,
which is new Jerusalem,
which cometh down out of heaven from my God:
and I will write upon him my new name.




Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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That's the point.....

The "bar" is to be sin free, as perfect as God is, as holy as God is, as loving as God is..... in EVERYTHING... in thought, word and deed..... in what is done/felt/said and left NOT done/felt/said... we ALWAYS and PERFECT "hit the mark" (to fall short of that is to be sin - indeed, that's the definition of the word "sin"). So.... what what our friend is meant to do with this is realize the reality - He cannot be what is demanded.... he NEEDS mercy..... he NEEDS forgiveness... he NEEDS the Savior to rescue him from the reality. In Justification, the law is MEANT to kill, to destroy our ego and pride and Phariseeism.... to bring us to our knees... The Law is an complete failure and the Devil wins if we read the Law and say "I already do that.... I don't need no god.... I don't need no Savior.... I don't need no mercy.... Cuz I got me, babe.... jsut give me sufficient time and a little help from a Friend.... and bingo - I'm just like God (just as Satan tried to get Adam and Eve). "If we could be saved by works of the law, then Christ died for no purpose" (I read that somewhere) - and that's EXACTLY what the devil wants us to think. BUT if the Law succeeds, then we look not in the mirror but to the Cross.... we despare of self and cling to Christ. "Nothing in my hands I bring, simply to thy cross I cling" (sang that somewhere).

Luk 8:11-15
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.


They on the rock ... have no root in themselves...

This speaks of man's response-ability...

Mar 4:17
And have no root in themselves,
and so endure but for a time:
afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake,
immediately they are offended.


IF there is a New Covenant, what is it?
And what is man's responsibility?
And what is God's?

You seem to deny man any responsibility at all...


Arsenios
 

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Jesus saves us who are repenting...

Are you saying Jesus has no Grace???


Arsenios
I'm saying you remove grace by stating you must repent before Jesus can save. You make salvation an act of repentance by you rather than an unmerited act of grace by God.
 

Arsenios

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When I first came to the Orthodox Faith, I saw much that was wrong and sinful in it, yet I sensed nothing wrong in its Services, in the Holy Order of Worship... At that time, I could not see the way a Service worked, or how it fit in with the rest of the Orthodox Way, or anything lie that - I simply knew God, and God had sent me into this Faith to finish the course... I can say that I really did not care what was being taught in it, because I was not there to evaluate it, but to acquire it...

And I arrived when the Faith was still quite young in the America's... It had come here mostly by way of refugees from persecutions, and the only place it had come here by evangellization was in Alaska, which the Russians had missionized - And the Grace accompanying each arrival is very, very different... The American Orthodox Church is still in its birthing labors... We are less than 1 million who attend services on any kind of regular basis... And one might argue that even this is generous... Indeed, there is no American Orthodox Church yet - There are now a fair number of American Orthodox faithful who have converted and had children who are what we call Cradle-O's, and the refugee Churches have had their now American-born cradle-O's children, but the Americas are a hodge-podge of ethnic enclave Churches to a large degree, where the local language of the Mother Country is spoken...

So I have paid attention, and i watched as those I now have struggled in this Faith and transformed their lives in its embrace, and the results are a wonder to behold... Indeed, I have tracked my own progress in my personal struggles, and have been no less awed... And in all this, I have wondered about the formation of Saints in the US - We have had Saints, and some very great ones, here... St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco and Elder Ephraim of Mt Athos are two, but John was from Russia, and Ephrem from Greece... So where are their American equivalents? Or are there any?

So much to my surprise, I went on a Pilgrimage to a Monastery and encountered a hieromonk who is the Abbot there, who is the first American I have met who is carrying the Grace of a Saint, at least so far, and I thin he will only get better... And a close friend of min went on a monastery drive and encountered two others, and a third who will perhaps become a Bishop, along the lines of the Bishop in Les Miserables... And after talking with him a lot on his return, I am at the point of reporting that the one I met is not an anomaly, but that the Faith is producing Her First Fruits in America from Americans... And that we will soon be Canonizing Fr. Seraphim Rose, another home grown Saint, who reposed some years ago, and was seminal in the resurgence of Orthodoxy in Russia after the fall of Communism...

Not many Churches are producing Saints in America - Real Saints, who can see into the human soul and know what is needed and do it... eg Those who in human encounters can transform lives, as did Paul and Peter and all the Apostles... And I am happy to see that this Ancient Faith is finally coming to bear fruit in the Americas - The effects will be breath-taking, for I am confident that there are many more coming behind these, and that a whole new wave of conversions will be forthcoming as we approach the America's as a vast field of conversion to Christianity...

And that I was given the privelege to see it bearing such fruit with my own eyes before my repose...

It is one thing to read the Christian literature of the Christian Faith across 2000 years, and hear about the great Pillars of that Faith, and their great deeds and exploits in the Faith of Christ... It is quite another to encounter such men and women emerging from the same soil from which I emerged into what was essentially a secular culture wherein I myself could find no basis to believe in God... All I can say is: "Glory to God in all things!"

The march of the American Orthodox Saints has begun...

May they bear much fruit!


Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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I'm saying you remove grace by stating you must repent before Jesus can save.

I never stated that you have to repent in order for Jesus to be able to Save you...

What I stated is that you must repent when Christ Calls you to repentance, and that for those who do not, Christ does not save them... Jesus CAN save whomever He wishes at any time and in any circumstance... But His Household is filled with those who are called to repentance who then DO repentance... Indeed, continuing in sins without repentance is how one removes one's self FROM the Household of Christ...

You make salvation an act of repentance by you rather than an unmerited act of grace by God.

Repentance does not save you - Christ does...

Yet God in Scripture does not lie...

Matt 11:12
And from the days of John the Baptist until now
the kingdom of heaven is suffering violence,
and the violent are taking it by force.


How do YOU understand this passage?

Do you think it does not apply to the Gentiles?
That it was only spoken for the Jews?
Or do you not understand that repentance is an action of force taken by the violent?
And that Christ is addressing those who repent from sins?


Arsenios
 

MoreCoffee

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The Lord, Jesus Christ, said "repent and believe the gospel", was he mistaken?
 
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