Salvation - Part 2

[MennoSota]

Indeed so, for the very good reason that God alone does not need Salvation...

And a Covenant is a relationship between two parties...
Each party provides what is appropriate to it...


Arsenios

Hebrews 6 says otherwise.

13*For example, there was God’s promise to Abraham. Since there was no one greater to swear by, God took an oath in his own name, saying:

14*“I will certainly bless you,
****and I will multiply your descendants beyond number.”

15*Then Abraham waited patiently, and he received what God had promised.

16*Now when people take an oath, they call on someone greater than themselves to hold them to it. And without any question that oath is binding.17*God also bound himself with an oath, so that those who received the promise could be perfectly sure that he would never change his mind.*18*So God has given both his promise and his oath. These two things are unchangeable because it is impossible for God to lie. Therefore, we who have fled to him for refuge can have great confidence as we hold to the hope that lies before us.*19*This hope is a strong and trustworthy anchor for our souls. It leads us through the curtain into God’s inner sanctuary.*20*Jesus has already gone in there for us. He has become our eternal High Priest in the order of Melchizedek.

All Abraham had to do was wait patiently while God fulfilled His promise to Abraham.
Arsenios, you reject grace via your proposition that you are responsible for your own salvation.

 

[Arsenios]

God the Father represents the Godhead and Jesus the Son is our representative in the covenant. We are covered under Christ.

God is One, and the Covenant is a relationship between God and man, and this Covenant is between God the Son and man, because it is the Covenant of the Body and Blood of Christ, where we eat His Body and drink His Blood and this in the context of living in obedience to everything that Christ commanded His Apostles to disciple to all the nations.

Matthew 28:20


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

All Abraham had to do was wait patiently while God fulfilled His promise to Abraham.

Actually, he had to wait in patient obedience to God, which he had established by obeying God unto the sacrifice of his only beloved son Isaac...

Arsenios, you reject grace via your proposition that you are responsible for your own salvation.

Abraham did not save himself, but he did obey God unto the sacrifice of his son.

God saved Abraham and Isaac...


Arsenios

 

[Lamb]

God is One, and the Covenant is a relationship between God and man, and this Covenant is between God the Son and man, because it is the Covenant of the Body and Blood of Christ, where we eat His Body and drink His Blood and this in the context of living in obedience to everything that Christ commanded His Apostles to disciple to all the nations.

Matthew 28:20


Arsenios

Yes, God is one. But man could not fulfill the requirement of perfection by the Law which is why Jesus our Christ had to fulfill it for us. He is the Savior who fulfills what the covenant demands.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yes, God is one. But man could not fulfill the requirement of perfection by the Law which is why Jesus our Christ had to fulfill it for us. He is the Savior who fulfills what the covenant demands.

Are you sure that there is a "requirement of perfection by the law"? Remember that Job was "perfect" and Enoch "pleased God so God took him [to heaven]" but there's no testimony in the holy scriptures to say that Job or Enoch met a requirement of perfection by the law.

 

[Josiah]

MoreCoffee,

Read these

https://www.gotquestions.org/Job-blameless-upright.html

https://www.bibleask.org/word-perfect-job-11-really-mean-job-sinless/



.... I continue to see the obsession some have to make man as big as possible and Christ as small as possible.... disturbing, IMO

 

[MennoSota]

Actually, he had to wait in patient obedience to God, which he had established by obeying God unto the sacrifice of his only beloved son Isaac...



Abraham did not save himself, but he did obey God unto the sacrifice of his son.

God saved Abraham and Isaac...


Arsenios

Abraham's obedience was not a requirement. In fact, Abraham made many bad decisions, yet God still kept His promise. Hebrews 6 confirms this.
Arsenios, you remove grace from salvation by adding works.

 

[Arsenios]

Abraham's obedience was not a requirement.
In fact, Abraham made many bad decisions, yet God still kept His promise.
Hebrews 6 confirms this.

Heb 6:10-12
For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love,
which ye have shewed toward his name,
in that ye have ministered to the saints,
and do minister.
And we desire that every one of you
do shew the same diligence
unto the full assurance of hope
unto the end:
That ye be not slothful,
but followers of them
who through faith and long-suffering
inherit the promises.

Says right there to not be slothful, but longsuffering and faithful...
That your works and labors of love are unto the full assurance of love...
That you are to FOLLOW those who so labor...

Did I get the wrong chapter in Hebrews?

There is a lot of YOU DOING commanded in this chapter...


Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

The word "believe" in English is a verb with "belief" being a noun, so all those verses urging people to "believe the gospel" and to "believe in/on the Lord, Jesus Christ" are urging people to action. Belief is not passive. And since Christian faith is about believing in Jesus Christ it is about action. "Repent and believe" is the message that Jesus Christ preached. It is a message that calls people to action. It isn't about having a belief passively held.

 

[MennoSota]

Heb 6:10-12
For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love,
which ye have shewed toward his name,
in that ye have ministered to the saints,
and do minister.
And we desire that every one of you
do shew the same diligence
unto the full assurance of hope
unto the end:
That ye be not slothful,
but followers of them
who through faith and long-suffering
inherit the promises.

Says right there to not be slothful, but longsuffering and faithful...
That your works and labors of love are unto the full assurance of love...
That you are to FOLLOW those who so labor...

Did I get the wrong chapter in Hebrews?

There is a lot of YOU DOING commanded in this chapter...


Arsenios

The actions you quote are not tied to God's promise. You are tying God's promise as being contingent upon your works. Nowhere is God's salvation contingent upon our works. If salvation was contingent upon our works then, one, Jesus would not have needed to atone for our sins, and two, grace is not a function of salvation.

 

[psalms 91]

Those works are not tied to salvation but rather to sanctification

 

[MoreCoffee]

Those works are not tied to salvation but rather to sanctification

I don't see the point in dividing salvation from sanctification since the holy scriptures tell us: "Strive for peace with all, and strive to be holy, for without holiness, no one will see the Lord." (Hebrews 12:14)

 

[psalms 91]

Salvation is not seperate but at least how I believe sanctification is progressive in our walk and as such these are some of the works that go towards that. Let me ask you this, when you were first saved were you holy? I dont mean the cleansing we recieve at the point of salvation but right after, did you not have sin in your life? Were there not some things left over?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Salvation is not seperate but at least how I believe sanctification is progressive in our walk and as such these are some of the works that go towards that. Let me ask you this, when you were first saved were you holy? I dont mean the cleansing we recieve at the point of salvation but right after, did you not have sin in your life? Were there not some things left over?

Yes, I sinned after conversion, I admit, with shame, that I sin today too. I rely on God's grace for salvation and on God's mercy for forgiveness. So no I was not holy immediately following conversion's beginning nor am I holy now, though by God's grace some sins have left my way of life and way of thinking and speaking.

I think that the vast majority of Christians rely on forgiveness and mercy for their continuing in the Christian faith. I rely on God's goodness towards me, it is not earned goodness nor is it deserved goodness that is shown but God is good because he loves me and sent his Son to die on my behalf. It is as if God says to himself, "he means well" and "in his heart he intended to do good even though the results are not what he hoped for" and God could say "I could have told you that it would not work as you thought it would" but God is gentle and his love is very deep and very strong so it seems to me that he looks on the intention and forgives the less than stellar results. That is, I believe the message of the gospel. Repent, the holy scripture says because it is what Jesus said, and believe the gospel which is the good news that God forgives his people because he loves them and sent his Son to be the expiation for their sins.

 

[Arsenios]

The actions you quote are not tied to God's promise. You are tying God's promise as being contingent upon your works. Nowhere is God's salvation contingent upon our works. If salvation was contingent upon our works then, one, Jesus would not have needed to atone for our sins, and two, grace is not a function of salvation.

That ye be not slothful,
but followers of them
who through faith and long-suffering
inherit the promises.

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Those works are not tied to salvation but rather to sanctification

That ye be not slothful,
but followers of them
who through faith and long-suffering
inherit the promises.

Not slothful followers inherit the promises...

Fairly straight-foreward...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

The perfecting of the Saints is pretty much a matter between God and the one being perfected...

At least that is my current take...

After one's major and persistent life sins are finally put to rest, the character of one's sins shifts...

As does the manner of one's walk in vigilance and intercession...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

That ye be not slothful,
but followers of them
who through faith and long-suffering
inherit the promises.

Arsenios

The promise has already been given. We simply inherit what is promised. It is very straight forward. You twist it into works and thus remove grace.
Matthew 25:34
34*“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world.

 

[Lamb]

The promise has already been given. We simply inherit what is promised. It is very straight forward. You twist it into works and thus remove grace.
Matthew 25:34
34*“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world.

You are so right. The promise is given. Forgiveness won at the cross. We only believe in what is already true. We can't put salvation as being dependent on us, it is only from Christ.

 

[Josiah]

We can't put salvation as being dependent on us, it is only from Christ.

Yup.

A point I keep bringing up.... and every time, it causes a firestorm of protest, debate, argument. It ain't complicated: Jesus is the Savior which means we are not.