Salvation - Part 2

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Andrew

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The debate lingers I see, it just never ceases nor does it sleep. I believe repentance is a gift from God, also belief, also forgiveness and mercy...so also is faith and also salvation etc... We give our life up to The Lord God as Christ gave us his life for us and was resurrected.
Faith is determined by God and Justification is given by God.
We can only determine the fruits of others, but for man to believe that he knows good and evil as great as God does is deceived, by this the land was cursed and man was banished from Edin... keep your works hidden and seen only by God "lest ye boast"
 

Josiah

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The debate lingers I see, it just never ceases nor does it sleep. I believe repentance is a gift from God, also belief, also forgiveness and mercy...so also is faith and also salvation etc... We give our life up to The Lord God as Christ gave us his life for us and was resurrected.
Faith is determined by God and Justification is given by God.
We can only determine the fruits of others, but for man to believe that he knows good and evil as great as God does is deceived, by this the land was cursed and man was banished from Edin... keep your works hidden and seen only by God "lest ye boast"


:clap2:



It's not complicated.... but all Christianity (and eternity) hinges on it. Jesus is the Savior.


JESUS (no other, including that bloat you see in the mirror).... IS (actually, reallty, fully).... THE (one and only, all-sufficient).... SAVIOR (not helper or offerer or possibility-maker).
Not that complicated, is it? But deny that.... and Christianity has been destroyed.


There's only two places to look: To the Cross or to the Mirror. There is no third option. Christianity directs all to the Cross, the Savior, to HIS works. The Devil and every other religion directs you to the mirror (although suggesting self needs HELP).

The Devil goes to enormous lengths to TRY to make this as complicated, as complexed, and entanged, and unsure as he possibility can.... to make Jesus seem as small as possible and self seem as big as possible.... to get your eyes off Jesus as much as he can. He seems to have some success. In what SHOULD be the simpliest issue in all Christianity is made into the most confusing, unsure, complex bewildering issue. How can something so beautiful, so wonderful, so clear, so true be made to be an entangled, troubling, self-glorifying MESS? Look to pride and the devil.



Answer this: WHO is the Savior?


IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly wrapped up in Jesus. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness. Not you. Not yours. You may have some other role in some other matter, but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you.

IF you answer "me" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you.

Which is it? Try answering that.

Now, true, having the Gift carries a number of responsibilities (gifts almost always does, even the divine gift of physical and of spiritual life) but what we do BECAUSE we have the gift is not why we first RECEIVE the gift. So simple. Made so complex and difficult and unknownable and unsure.




- Josiah




.
 
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psalms 91

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:clap2:



It's not complicated.... but all Christianity (and eternity) hinges on it. Jesus is the Savior.


JESUS (no other, including that bloat you see in the mirror).... IS (actually, reallty, fully).... THE (one and only, all-sufficient).... SAVIOR (not helper or offerer or possibility-maker).
Not that complicated, is it? But deny that.... and Christianity has been destroyed.


There's only two places to look: To the Cross or to the Mirror. There is no third option. Christianity directs all to the Cross, the Savior, to HIS works. The Devil and every other religion directs you to the mirror (although suggesting self needs HELP).

The Devil goes to enormous lengths to TRY to make this as complicated, as complexed, and entanged, and unsure as he possibility can.... to make Jesus seem as small as possible and self seem as big as possible.... to get your eyes off Jesus as much as he can. He seems to have some success. In what SHOULD be the simpliest issue in all Christianity is made into the most confusing, unsure, complex bewildering issue. How can something so beautiful, so wonderful, so clear, so true be made to be an entangled, troubling, self-glorifying MESS? Look to pride and the devil.



Answer this: WHO is the Savior?


IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly wrapped up in Jesus. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness. Not you. Not yours. You may have some other role in some other matter, but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you.

IF you answer "me" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you.

Which is it? Try answering that.

Now, true, having the Gift carries a number of responsibilities (gifts almost always does, even the divine gift of physical and of spiritual life) but what we do BECAUSE we have the gift is not why we first RECEIVE the gift. So simple. Made so complex and difficult and unknownable and unsure.




- Josiah




.
Josiah do you just keep a copy of this to paste in
 

Arsenios

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There is no observable evidence in scripture
that unregenerate persons were ever baptized.

I thought that ONLY unregenerate persons were EVER Baptized...

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done,
but according to His mercy He saved us,
by the washing of regeneration,
and renewing of the Holy Ghost
;


This KJV translation would seem to say that Baptism, the Washing of Regeneration, is how Christ saves us...

οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων τῶν ἐν δικαιοσύνῃ ὧν ἐποιήσαμεν ἡμεῖς,
Not out of works of righteousness of which we ourselves have done

ἀλλὰ κατὰ τὸν αὐτοῦ ἔλεον ἔσωσεν ἡμᾶς
but instead according to his Mercy He has Saved US...

διὰ λουτροῦ παλιγγενεσίας
through the BATHING of Regeneration

καὶ ἀνακαινώσεως Πνεύματος ῾Αγίου,
and the renewal of the Holy Spirit

The word for bathing, λουτροῦ, is Strong's Number 3067: bathing, bath, the act of bathing

Hence the Bathing of Regeneration IS the way Christ saves us...

Which is why we are Baptized into Christ by Christ in the Bathing of Regeneration...

The Bathing of Regeneration is not for those already regenerated, is it?

I mean, IF you are already regenerated, you do not NEED to be Bathed again, yes?

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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I will tell you this for sure, if you try to baptize someone who is unsaved into the spirit of God you will get a demon manifestation like you wouldnt believe. Want to argue? Then go try it for yourself and see what happens.

The Church has been Baptizing the unregenerate into Regeneration in Christ for 2000 years now and counting...

But I agree, IF a person simply takes it upon himself to baptize someone into the Holy Spirit, demonic events will almost certainly ensue...


Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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Been there.

Tried that.

But so what?

This thread is all about "I'm right; you're wrong" isn't it?

I sure hope not...

If you are right, then you will receive no benefit here...

Nor will you give any benefit, except apart from your intent...


Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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Arsenios,


This is a DISCUSSION and debate forum......

I'm just playing by [MENNO'S] rules.....

and addressing things HE insists are DOGMAS.

So how's that workin' out for ya? :)


Arsenios
 
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Albion

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Arsenios

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Arsenios said:
Do you have personal eperience of a "perfect act of charity/love for God?"

Since it is not my aim to discuss myself I shall set aside this question.

I was not trying to pry into your personal life, but IF you are NOT speaking from personal experience which you might be willing to describe, then perhaps you can refer to an account of the Life of a Saint where such a perfect action took place, and what it entailed, and how it came to become manifest?

The Orthodox faithful are eminently practical in our theology, you see...

Could we perhaps go to the Life of St. Mary of Egypt, whom we both revere, and you could show me what you mean by this "perfect act of charity/love in her life that brought her to Salvation... Her hagiography is easily available on line...


Arsenios
 

MoreCoffee

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I was not trying to pry into your personal life, but IF you are NOT speaking from personal experience which you might be willing to describe, then perhaps you can refer to an account of the Life of a Saint where such a perfect action took place, and what it entailed, and how it came to become manifest?

The Orthodox faithful are eminently practical in our theology, you see...

Could we perhaps go to the Life of St. Mary of Egypt, whom we both revere, and you could show me what you mean by this "perfect act of charity/love in her life that brought her to Salvation
The paragraph doesn't say that a perfect act of charity is what brings one to salvation.

A reminder of what we're discussing:
This disposition is followed by justification itself, which consists not in the mere remission of sins, but in the sanctification and renewal of the inner man by the voluntary reception of God's grace and gifts, whence a man becomes just instead of unjust, a friend instead of a foe and so an heir according to hope of eternal life. This change happens either by reason of a perfect act of charity elicited by a well disposed sinner or by virtue of the Sacrament either of Baptism or of Penance according to the condition of the respective subject laden with sin. The Council further indicates the causes of this change. By the merit of the Most Holy Passion through the Holy Spirit, the charity of God is shed abroad in the hearts of those who are justified.
and a specific example drawn from the life of a saint is the example of the condemned man on the cross adjacent to Jesus, when the Lord was crucified, who said "Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong." and "remember me when you come into your kingdom".
... Her hagiography is easily available on line...


Arsenios
 
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MennoSota

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I thought that ONLY unregenerate persons were EVER Baptized...

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done,
but according to His mercy He saved us,
by the washing of regeneration,
and renewing of the Holy Ghost
;


This KJV translation would seem to say that Baptism, the Washing of Regeneration, is how Christ saves us...

οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων τῶν ἐν δικαιοσύνῃ ὧν ἐποιήσαμεν ἡμεῖς,
Not out of works of righteousness of which we ourselves have done

ἀλλὰ κατὰ τὸν αὐτοῦ ἔλεον ἔσωσεν ἡμᾶς
but instead according to his Mercy He has Saved US...

διὰ λουτροῦ παλιγγενεσίας
through the BATHING of Regeneration

καὶ ἀνακαινώσεως Πνεύματος ῾Αγίου,
and the renewal of the Holy Spirit

The word for bathing, λουτροῦ, is Strong's Number 3067: bathing, bath, the act of bathing

Hence the Bathing of Regeneration IS the way Christ saves us...

Which is why we are Baptized into Christ by Christ in the Bathing of Regeneration...

The Bathing of Regeneration is not for those already regenerated, is it?

I mean, IF you are already regenerated, you do not NEED to be Bathed again, yes?

Arsenios
How Does the New Birth Happen?

So we turn now to today’s question:*How*does God do it? How does the new birth happen? Just like we saw in the words of Jesus in John 3, Paul describes regeneration as a*cleansing*and a*renewing. At the end of*Titus 3:5, Paul says that God saved us “by the*washing*of regeneration and*renewal*of the Holy Spirit.” Regeneration is a kind of*washing. And regeneration is a kind of*renewal.

Recall that Jesus said in*John 3:5, “Unless one is born of*water*and the*Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” So in John 3, you have*born of water and the Spirit. And in Titus 3, you have*washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit.

My argument in John 3*was that this language of water and Spirit came from*Ezekiel 36:25-27*where God promises his people,

I will sprinkle clean*water*on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. . . . And I will put*my Spirit*within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes.

Jesus was saying that the time of the new covenant promises has arrived. Ezekiel’s promise is coming to pass by the Spirit in connection with me. The Spirit gives life (John 6:63). And I am the way the truth and the life (John 14:6). And when the Spirit connects you to me by faith you experience a new birth. And there are at least two ways to look at it:*cleansing*from all that is past and*renewal*for all that is future.

Both*Clean*and*New

So when Paul says here in verse 5 that God “saved us . . . by the*washing*of regeneration and*renewal*of the Holy Spirit,” he means roughly the same thing: The promises of the new covenant have arrived. The beginning of the kingdom of God is here. The final universal “regeneration” has begun. And your new birth is a cleansing from all the sin that you have ever committed; and it is the creation of a new nature by the Holy Spirit.

You are still you after the new birth. But there are two changes: You are clean, and you are new. That is what it means to be born again, regenerated.

How did God bring that about?

What Paul wants to emphasize here is that it is owing to the way God is, not owing to what we have done—even done in righteousness. Verses 4 and 5 give three descriptions of the way God is and puts this in contrast to anything we might try to do to be born again. “But when the*goodness*and*loving kindness*of God our Savior appeared, he saved us,*not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own*mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.”

Salvation is the big overarching idea in this text (verse 5: “he saved us”). But the specific way he does it is regeneration. And Paul traces both of them back to God’s “goodness,” his “loving kindness” (verse 4), and his “mercy” (verse 5). This is Paul’s ultimate answer to how God regenerates sinners. God is good. God is loving. God is merciful.

1) By the Kindness of God

If you are born again—if you were wakened from spiritual death, and given eyes to see, and ears to hear, and a spiritual sense to taste that Jesus is supremely satisfying, and a heart to trust him—it is owing to the kindness of God. That key first word in verse 4 (chrestotes) means*kindness*or*goodness. Paul uses it in*Ephesians 2:7: “[God made us alive] so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in*kindness*toward us in Christ Jesus.”

God loves to lavish kindness on us. The bigger your conception of God, the more amazing this is. God is the creator of the universe. He holds the galaxies in being. He governs everything that happens in the world, down to the fall of a bird and the change in your hair color. He is infinitely strong and wise and holy and just. And Paul says, he is kind. And because of this kindness we were born again. Let your very existence as a Christian tell you every hour of every day: God is kind to you.

2) By the Philanthropy of God

The second way Paul describes what God is like is translated in the ESV “loving kindness.” The word is*philanthropia*from which we get our word*philanthropy. Love of humanity. This is not a common word for the love of God. In fact, it only occurs here in the New Testament. Paul says that God’s heart inclines to do humanity’s good. He is in the highest sense a philanthropist. So Paul is saying, if you are born again, it happened because of God’s inclination to bless humanity.

Then he says something absolutely essential and Christ-exalting. He says in verse 4 that this kindness and this humanity-blessing inclination “appeared.” “But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior*appeared, he saved us . . . through the washing of regeneration.” What does that mean? The kindness and love of God*appeared. It means that if they simply stay there in the being of God and don’t come down and take human form among us, they would save nobody.

Jesus: The Appearing of God’s Kindness and Philanthropy

How did they appear? How did the kindness and love of God appear? The answer is found in noticing the fact that God is called “our Savior” in verse 4 (“the kindness of God*our Savior*appeared”). And Jesus is called “our Savior” in verse 6: “Whom [that is, the Spirit] he [God] poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ*our Savior.” In other words, God “our Savior” appeared in the person of Christ “our Savior.” Jesus is the appearing of the goodness and love of God.

This means that our regeneration is owing to the historical work of Christ. We have seen this over and over. New birth is not a vague spiritual change disconnected from history. It is an objective historical act of the Spirit of God connecting us by faith to the historical, incarnate—the appearing—Lord Jesus so that the life he now has as the crucified and risen Savior has become our life because we are united to him. New birth happens because Jesus came into the world as the kindness and love of God and died for sins and rose again.

3) By the Mercy of God, Not Our Deeds

We close by mentioning the third aspect of God’s nature that explains our new birth, and by mentioning the opposite, which would be to explain it by our own deeds. Verse 5: “He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but*according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration.”

Mercy. If you are born again, you owe it to the mercy of God. God is merciful. We didn’t deserve to be born again. We were hard and resistant and spiritually dead. God would have been just to pass us by. “But God, being rich in mercy . . . even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ” (Ephesians 2:4-5). We owe our new life—our new birth—to mercy.

Not Our Best Works and Best Motives

God is kind. God is loving toward humanity. God is merciful. That is how we were born again. God did it. Paul could have left it like that. Only positive statements. But he didn’t. He said in verse 5, “He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness.” He knows our tendencies. We tend to think that if something good happens to us, it must be because we did something good. Paul knows this about us. And he warns.

When it comes to salvation through the new birth, don’t think that way. Notice carefully, he does not say: This salvation was not owing to works done in legalism. He says: This salvation—this new birth—is not owing to*works done in righteousness. Not only your worst works and worst motives, but even your best works and best motives are excluded. They didn’t make you regenerate; they don’t cause you to stay regenerate. Staying regenerate causes them.

Not Baptism

This is one reason why I do not think the “washing of regeneration” in verse 5 refers to baptism. Whether circumcision in the old covenant or baptism in the new covenant—it is not good things we do that causes us to be born again. The kindness of God. The love of God. The absolutely free mercy of God explains our new birth. Not circumcision. Not baptism. Not any works done by us in righteousness. New birth comes and brings righteous deeds with it, not the other way around.

Gladly Submit to God’s Mercy

May God give you eyes to see that nothing could make you humbler and nothing could make you happier than the truth that you have born again, not because of anything you did, but because of the mercy of God. Submit to that, and be glad.

https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/through-the-washing-of-regeneration
 

Josiah

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Nor can it.

After this comes Salvation - Part 3.


AMAZING, isn't it?


I've been in pure wonderment about that for many years....

We see it almost daily at CH (and virtually every other ecumenical Christian discussion forum).

Some Protestant posts that Jesus is the Savior.... seems simple, seems pretty Christian.... and BOW, BANG.... you an bet your last dime on it .... here come a few blasting away, debating, ridiculing... going on and on and on and on and on, often for hundreds of posts, even hundreds of pages of posts.... debating, arguing. Amazing. I've seen it at virtually every website I've been involved in that includes non-Protestants (and occasionally, even some Protestants). Amazing.

I can fully understand this kind of endless debate on Baptism and Communion and the nature of the church - these are issues where there can be honest disagreement and where we know there are deep disagreements - when I participate in such a thread, I expect various pov (I've even grown to know EXACTLY what they will be and how they will be communicated) and I'm neither shocked nor dismayed when little agreement is reached (I'm just happy when some mutual understanding is attained). But THIS? "Jesus is the Savior?" Why does THAT seem to cause the greatest upset of all? Why do THOSE threads last the longest and often cause the most upset? Why.... I wonder deeply.... do some seem to just come UNGLUED, become so angry, when THAT point is raised? Seems to ME, THAT should be one of the things on which there is 100% solid, full, IMMEDIATE agreement! But..... Read the next paragraph...

I KNOW (well)... there is a tradition that mixes Law with the Gospel here.... that mixes the gift with the response.... that mixes Justification with Sanctification... I KNOW that because I've been on both "sides" of that, having been a Catholic and now a Lutheran, I've been an apologist for BOTH here. BUT, even there, it SHOULD be a case..... you'd absolutely, 100%, be POSITIVE.... it would begin by saying "YES - Absolutely - Jesus is the Savior - I agree with you with all my heart, with all my passion, Amen! Praise Jesus! Now.... let us not forget that having this gift means much!" Of course, there too we'd all be in 100% agreement! The thread would last about 3 posts and be done because everyone fully agrees. But it never goes that way, does it? Someone posts something like "Jesus is the Savior" and it's WAR!!! Dunk for cover, the bombs are flying! Some non-Protestants have come unglued, unhinged.... and they drive it on and on and on and on and on, for hundreds of posts and hundreds of pages.... I don't understand it. The closest I get is conveyed in post # 222.


[MENTION=43]psalms 91[/MENTION] But, Bill..... Every opportunity I get, I'm going to proclaim the Gospel.... "Jesus is the Savior.' The Truth is unchanging and so the message will be the same. I'll do it every day until the Lord takes me to heaven. Because Christianity hinges on this.... because the Gospel is this.... because it frustrates the _____ out of the devil.... and above all, because it's True.



- Josiah*



* Famous (or infamous) for his persistence.



.
 

Albion

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I know what you mean. The purpose seems to be to nit-pick to death whatever the person identified as an opponent has written, even in the case of items that are not important one way or the other.

My guess is that wearing out the other person is the real objective, especially when you find yourself being tag-teamed by several posters.
 

Arsenios

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The paragraph doesn't say that a perfect act of charity is what brings one to salvation.

... A specific example drawn from the life of a saint is the example of the condemned man
on the cross adjacent to Jesus, when the Lord was crucified, who said
"Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?
And we indeed justly; for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds;
but this man has done nothing wrong."
and
"Remember me when you come into your kingdom".

So what the Wise Thief said on the cross is "a perfect act of charity elicited by a well disposed sinner"?

I am still not making the connection...

How is it an act of charity at all, let alone perfected?

Arsenios
 
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MoreCoffee

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So what the Wise Thief said on the cross is "a perfect act of charity elicited by a well disposed sinner"?

I am still not making the connection...

How is it an act of charity at all, let alone perfected?

Arsenios

By being like the Sacrament either of Baptism or of Penance did you read the paragraph?
 

TurtleHare

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I know what you mean. The purpose seems to be to nit-pick to death whatever the person identified as an opponent has written, even in the case of items that are not important one way or the other.

My guess is that wearing out the other person is the real objective, especially when you find yourself being tag-teamed by several posters.

pssh you know it's gotten bad when even little old me stops posting in these battles that are the same when you return after not logging in for a while and that's pretty sad. Can't we come up with something new to offer here?
 

Josiah

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Josiah said:

AMAZING, isn't it?

I've been in pure wonderment about that for many years....

We see it almost daily at CH (and virtually every other ecumenical Christian discussion forum).

Some Protestant posts that Jesus is the Savior.... seems simple, seems pretty Christian.... and BOW, BANG.... you an bet your last dime on it .... here come a few blasting away, debating, ridiculing... going on and on and on and on and on, often for hundreds of posts, even hundreds of pages of posts.... debating, arguing. Amazing. I've seen it at virtually every website I've been involved in that includes non-Protestants (and occasionally, even some Protestants). Amazing.

I can fully understand this kind of endless debate on Baptism and Communion and the nature of the church - these are issues where there can be honest disagreement and where we know there are deep disagreements - when I participate in such a thread, I expect various pov (I've even grown to know EXACTLY what they will be and how they will be communicated) and I'm neither shocked nor dismayed when little agreement is reached (I'm just happy when some mutual understanding is attained). But THIS? "Jesus is the Savior?" Why does THAT seem to cause the greatest upset of all? Why do THOSE threads last the longest and often cause the most upset? Why.... I wonder deeply.... do some seem to just come UNGLUED, become so angry, when THAT point is raised? Seems to ME, THAT should be one of the things on which there is 100% solid, full, IMMEDIATE agreement! But..... Read the next paragraph...

I KNOW (well)... there is a tradition that mixes Law with the Gospel here.... that mixes the gift with the response.... that mixes Justification with Sanctification... I KNOW that because I've been on both "sides" of that, having been a Catholic and now a Lutheran, I've been an apologist for BOTH here. BUT, even there, it SHOULD be a case..... you'd absolutely, 100%, be POSITIVE.... it would begin by saying "YES - Absolutely - Jesus is the Savior - I agree with you with all my heart, with all my passion, Amen! Praise Jesus! Now.... let us not forget that having this gift means much!" Of course, there too we'd all be in 100% agreement! The thread would last about 3 posts and be done because everyone fully agrees. But it never goes that way, does it? Someone posts something like "Jesus is the Savior" and it's WAR!!! Dunk for cover, the bombs are flying! Some non-Protestants have come unglued, unhinged.... and they drive it on and on and on and on and on, for hundreds of posts and hundreds of pages.... I don't understand it. The closest I get is conveyed in post # 222.



.


pssh you know it's gotten bad when even little old me stops posting in these battles that are the same when you return after not logging in for a while and that's pretty sad. Can't we come up with something new to offer here?


.


It's the SAME because some Protestant posts that Jesus is the Savior - and then a few non-Protestants just come unglued and go ON AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON.... at times for hundreds of posts, even hundreds of pages of posts.... arguing and debating that point. No one gets anywhere ... the Protestants are shocked and dismayed that any Christian would be so angered and horrified by the Gospel.... the Protestants keep repeating the Gospel thinking it SO important and central.... some others just keep arguing and debating it. And on and on and on and on and on it goes..... in thread after thread.... even in threads not about it. It happens at CH and pretty much every other Christian site where non-Protestants post. Makes you wonder.


Every opportunity I get, I'm going to proclaim the Gospel.... "Jesus is the Savior." I'll do it every day until the Lord takes me to heaven. Because Christianity hinges on this.... because the Gospel is this.... because it frustrates the _____ out of the devil.... and above all, because it's True.




- Josiah
 

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or posters stop engaging in I am right you are wrong for page after page
 

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Josiah said:


AMAZING, isn't it?

I've been in pure wonderment about that for many years....

We see it almost daily at CH
(and virtually every other ecumenical Christian discussion forum).

Some Protestant posts that Jesus is the Savior.... seems simple, seems pretty Christian.... and BOW, BANG.... you an bet your last dime on it .... here come a few blasting away, debating, ridiculing... going on and on and on and on and on, often for hundreds of posts, even hundreds of pages of posts.... debating, arguing. Amazing. I've seen it at virtually every website I've been involved in that includes non-Protestants (and occasionally, even some Protestants). Amazing.

I can fully understand this kind of endless debate on Baptism and Communion and the nature of the church - these are issues where there can be honest disagreement and where we know there are deep disagreements - when I participate in such a thread, I expect various pov (I've even grown to know EXACTLY what they will be and how they will be communicated) and I'm neither shocked nor dismayed when little agreement is reached (I'm just happy when some mutual understanding is attained). But THIS? "Jesus is the Savior?" Why does THAT seem to cause the greatest upset of all? Why do THOSE threads last the longest and often cause the most upset? Why.... I wonder deeply.... do some seem to just come UNGLUED, become so angry, when THAT point is raised? Seems to ME, THAT should be one of the things on which there is 100% solid, full, IMMEDIATE agreement! But..... Read the next paragraph...

I KNOW (well)... there is a tradition that mixes Law with the Gospel here.... that mixes the gift with the response.... that mixes Justification with Sanctification... I KNOW that because I've been on both "sides" of that, having been a Catholic and now a Lutheran, I've been an apologist for BOTH here. BUT, even there, it SHOULD be a case..... you'd absolutely, 100%, be POSITIVE.... it would begin by saying "YES - Absolutely - Jesus is the Savior - I agree with you with all my heart, with all my passion, Amen! Praise Jesus! Now.... let us not forget that having this gift means much!" Of course, there too we'd all be in 100% agreement! The thread would last about 3 posts and be done because everyone fully agrees. But it never goes that way, does it? Someone posts something like "Jesus is the Savior" and it's WAR!!! Dunk for cover, the bombs are flying! Some non-Protestants have come unglued, unhinged.... and they drive it on and on and on and on and on, for hundreds of posts and hundreds of pages.... I don't understand it. The closest I get is conveyed in post # 222.


But, Bill..... Every opportunity I get, I'm going to proclaim the Gospel.... "Jesus is the Savior.' The Truth is unchanging and so the message will be the same. I'll do it every day until the Lord takes me to heaven. Because Christianity hinges on this.... because the Gospel is this.... because it frustrates the _____ out of the devil.... and above all, because it's True.



.


or posters stop engaging in I am right you are wrong for page after page


Jesus said the Gospel would divide people.... Jesus said some would "walk away" from the Gospel.

I guess it comes down to whether one thinks the Gospel is worth proclaiming. I think Jesus had something to say about those "ashamed" of Him. Christians once actually honored those even willing to die for the Gospel (indeed, those who DID die for the Gospel)... but of course, now we live in a world of uber-relativism and where tolerance has become the pop religion. On this Reformation weekend, I'm SURE there are many feeling that Luther should have just chilled and said, "It doens't matter." IMO, the Gospel does.... the Cross does.... Christ does.

But I agree with you, Bill. People who think this doesn't matter can just not read these threads or participate in them. Simple, isn't it?




.
 
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