Who is "him that justifieth the ungodly"?

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brightfame52

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Very well.

By failing to bother with what the Apostle had to say in the verses that led up to Romans 5:10, you fail to understand that he's already explained that we are saved by the whole process of Christ paying for the sins of mankind AND our acceptance by Faith of his substitutionary sacrifice.

As a result, you misread Romans 5:10 to say that Faith is not needed, whereas he's already covered that point and now is speaking of the life we can live, having been born again by Faith.

Romans 5:1-2:

"1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God
through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand."

Or you may prefer the explanation as given by Geerhardus Vos, which Messy reproduced for you:

"'...the apostle means by reconciliation an objective transaction accomplished by God in Christ" and that "the exercise of justifying faith forms the subjective reflex of the reconciliation."'
According to Rom 5:10 how were they reconciled and when ?

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
 

Messy

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Im aware of views like that, however Im speaking about objective reconciliation, that's a finished reconciliation by Christs death alone which you have denied, the writer hasn't denied it !
The writer of that link? I agree with that. I only try to make sense of 2 seemingly opposite texts in Romans 5: we were reconciled versus be reconciled with God (which means you're not yet reconciled when you're not saved). It's both true, so I'll Google what theologians have to say about it.
 

brightfame52

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The writer of that link? I agree with that. I only try to make sense of 2 seemingly opposite texts in Romans 5: we were reconciled versus be reconciled with God (which means you're not yet reconciled when you're not saved). It's both true, so I'll Google what theologians have to say about it.
If you agree with the writer, then what is objective reconciliation ? When according to Rom 5:10 were they objectively reconciled to God and how ?

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

The writer clearly said,

the apostle means by reconciliation an objective transaction accomplished by God in Christ"
 

Albion

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According to Rom 5:10 how were they reconciled and when ?

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
One more time...

that was explained earlier in Paul's letter to the Romans!

Read it for yourself, or else read my explanation of it along with the relevant Bible verses. There is nothing more we can do for you if you refuse to inform yourself.
 

Messy

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If you agree with the writer, then what is objective reconciliation ? When according to Rom 5:10 were they objectively reconciled to God and how ?

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

The writer clearly said,
The old man got killed with Christ and evil was condemned in the flesh and He laid all our iniquities on Him, just like with the scapegoat and the priest putting all the sins of Israel on the scapegoat and then send him into the desert. The sins from the world were done away when Jesus died, but that is only true when you are in Christ by faith. The other text and translation is good: He was reconciling the world with Him, an ongoing thing, because when you live in sin, in the flesh and are not transported from darkness into His Kingdom yet, not in Christ yet, that old man is not crucified yet, although it was crucified 2000 years ago. If it was really crucified you would never sin since birth. So it only counts for those who are in Christ. We have to put it to death by faith, keep it for dead and walk in the Spirit after we got baptized in Him and in His death when we got saved and baptized. The ones who do not accept His offer and keep living in the flesh, for them His offer doesn't reconcile them with God.
 
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brightfame52

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One more time...

that was explained earlier in Paul's letter to the Romans!

Read it for yourself, or else read my explanation of it along with the relevant Bible verses. There is nothing more we can do for you if you refuse to inform yourself.
I can see you are fearful to admit the plain truth right in front of you. According to Rom 5:10 how were they reconciled to God and when ?

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
 

brightfame52

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The old man got killed with Christ and evil was condemned in the flesh and He laid all our iniquities on Him, just like with the scapegoat and the priest putting all the sins of Israel on the scapegoat and then send him into the desert. The sins from the world were done away when Jesus died, but that is only true when you are in Christ by faith. The other text and translation is good: He was reconciling the world with Him, an ongoing thing, because when you live in sin, in the flesh and are not transported from darkness into His Kingdom yet, not in Christ yet, that old man is not crucified yet, although it was crucified 2000 years ago. If it was really crucified you would never sin since birth. So it only counts for those who are in Christ. We have to put it to death by faith, keep it for dead and walk in the Spirit after we got baptized in Him and in His death when we got saved and baptized. The ones who do not accept His offer and keep living in the flesh, for them His offer doesn't reconcile them with God.
You have started a rabbit trail, You went and got a quote from a guy and you dont even believe what he believed, nor understand what he was saying. So again, you deny objective reconciliation, and how and when it was accomplished. Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
 

Messy

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You have started a rabbit trail, You went and got a quote from a guy and you dont even believe what he believed, nor understand what he was saying. So again, you deny objective reconciliation, and how and when it was accomplished. Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Lol back to the rabbit trail. Yes I don't understand all this terminology, cause it's all quite simple and a child can understand it, but when they throw all that terminology in, I don't always get what they're saying. I agree with that guy from the basics link:


What is the old man crucified? The old man crucified is when the individual has moved from being “in Adam” to being “in Christ.” As a result of being “in Christ” we have come to share in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. What happened to Jesus has now been applied to us in such a way that it happens to us: the old man [who I am in my enslavement to sin] is put to death and life is given to a “new man” I am imparted with the Holy Spirit so that Christ’s resurrection life is at work in me.

So Jesus did the sin nature away, but the old man is only dead if you believe that He did that. What use is all this talk anyway? Keep it practical. I'm not a theologian. A guy from christian forums was even a pastor and he was addicted to porn for 30 years and he fasted and prayed and then he gave up and God said: With this My son I am well pleased. I knew all along you couldn't do it. Have you ever confessed what Paul said? I don't live anymore. Christ lives in me. The old man died. He confessed those texts, believed em and was instantly set free. Same thing is what Thorben Sondergaard preaches. That's why they hate him and threw him in jail.
 

Messy

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Reconciliation as far as I know the normal word for it is always 2 sided. If someone stabs a knife in my back I have to forgive em, but is the relationship good when they are not even sorry? No so we are not reconciled. If they at least show that they're sorry, no problem, all is well, reconciliation.
 

brightfame52

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Lol back to the rabbit trail. Yes I don't understand all this terminology, cause it's all quite simple and a child can understand it, but when they throw all that terminology in, I don't always get what they're saying. I agree with that guy from the basics link:


What is the old man crucified? The old man crucified is when the individual has moved from being “in Adam” to being “in Christ.” As a result of being “in Christ” we have come to share in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. What happened to Jesus has now been applied to us in such a way that it happens to us: the old man [who I am in my enslavement to sin] is put to death and life is given to a “new man” I am imparted with the Holy Spirit so that Christ’s resurrection life is at work in me.

So Jesus did the sin nature away, but the old man is only dead if you believe that He did that. What use is all this talk anyway? Keep it practical. I'm not a theologian. A guy from christian forums was even a pastor and he was addicted to porn for 30 years and he fasted and prayed and then he gave up and God said: With this My son I am well pleased. I knew all along you couldn't do it. Have you ever confessed what Paul said? I don't live anymore. Christ lives in me. The old man died. He confessed those texts, believed em and was instantly set free. Same thing is what Thorben Sondergaard preaches. That's why they hate him and threw him in jail.
Well this ends right here because you have gone in a entirely different direction. You simply dont believe, understand Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
 

Messy

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Well this ends right here because you have gone in a entirely different direction. You simply dont believe, understand Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
You simply don't believe and understand
2 Corinthians 5:20
Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God.

No u lol
 

Albion

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The inability of our detractor to defend his guesswork--or even to try to explain his theory after having been given our answers in addition to Bible verses that clearly show where he went wrong--really does say it all.

He wants to believe what he wants to believe. Period.
 
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Messy

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The inability of our detractor to defend his guesswork--or even to try to explain his theory after having been given our answers in addition to Bible verses that clearly show where he went wrong--really does say it all.

He wants to believe what he wants to believe. Period.
It reminds me of a discussion from years ago with a modalist who kept saying Isaiah 9:6 Jesus is the Father. LOL and the other guy was a theologian or something. He was so good at explaning the Trinity, but the answer was all the time Isaiah 9:6 Jesus is the Father.
 

Josiah

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Reconciliation as far as I know the normal word for it is always 2 sided. If someone stabs a knife in my back I have to forgive em, but is the relationship good when they are not even sorry? No so we are not reconciled. If they at least show that they're sorry, no problem, all is well, reconciliation.

our reconciliation with God is entirely one-sided, as is the covenant. GOD does it. We simply benefit.

But I agree with you and Albion.... PERSONAL justification (aka subjective justification) involves TWO things - the Cross and faith. And BOTH are fully, entirely, wholly the work and and gift of God - His blessing to us. But both are essential.



.
 

brightfame52

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You simply don't believe and understand
2 Corinthians 5:20
Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God.

No u lol
I understand it, Paul is addressing those who have already been reconciled, thats clear from Vs 18-19 2 Cor 5:18-19

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

You dont understand 2 Cor 5:20 neither, and you dont believe Rom 5:10
 

Albion

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our reconciliation with God is entirely one-sided, as is the covenant. GOD does it. We simply benefit.

But I agree with you and Albion.... PERSONAL justification (aka subjective justification) involves TWO things - the Cross and faith. And BOTH are fully, entirely, wholly the work and and gift of God - His blessing to us. But both are essential.
.
We all agree to that, but the point about us beneficiaries needing to accept God's sacrifice and the offer of salvation describes a two-way process.

After all, it's been contended here that Christ died for ALL, for the whole world, yet we are not universalists. Why not? Because we believe that the individual must accept Christ by Faith. Otherwise, all humans, even those who hate God and/or don't think Christ was more than a nice teacher, would be saved alongside Mother Teresa and St, Peter.
 

brightfame52

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Justification of Life ! 3

Rom 5:18

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Now the blessing Justification of life is a blessing given to all for whom Christ died, its God acting in the capacity of Judge, adjudging all for whom He died to Life, because all the sins of theirs has been charged to Christ; also because of that, Its True Num 23:21

21 He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob, neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: the Lord his God is with him, and the shout of a king is among them.

This is the equivalent of Ps 32:1-2

1Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.

2 Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Rom 4:7-8

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.



2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

No where God does not impute sin, then obviously He does not impute death, but Life, for it is because of the wages of sin that we had death Rom 6:23a, but now all for whom Christ died, their sentence of death must be remitted, because their wage of sin was charged to Christ, of which God did execute His wrath and Justice upon Him for them, and as a result, Justification of Life is now owed to them ! God is under Covenant obligation to His Son to give them Life. Thats why Jesus says in Jn 3:7

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The word must, the verb dei :

I.it is necessary, there is need of, it behooves, is right and proper

Its only right and proper that all for whom Christ died and satisfied God's Law and Justice for, and that remitted the penalty of death for sin, its right and proper that they be given a New Life by New Birth !

Because Christ has died for their sins, death which is the penalty of sin, must be removed, which also means, Unbelief a symptom and consequence of death, caused by sin, must also be removed, The Spirit does both, He gives both Life and Faith to all for whom Christ died; also Justification does declare Righteous . The word for Justification in Rom 5:18 is the greek word dikaiōsis and means this:

I.
the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him

II.
abjuring to be righteous, justification

And this being made Righteous Rom 5:19b is revealed to Faith, to evidence to the Born Again Soul, so Faith is but the evidence to the soul of its Justification of Life !
 

Albion

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And this being made Righteous Rom 5:19b is revealed to Faith, to evidence to the Born Again Soul, so Faith is but the evidence to the soul of its Justification of Life !
So that's your guess.

Now here is what the word of God says on the subject--

Romans 3:22: “...This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe."

Nothing in the passage you cited says that "Faith is but [i.e. only, merely] the evidence to the soul of its justification."
 
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Messy

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So that's your guess.

Now here is what the word of God says on the subject--

Romans 3:22: “...This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe."

Nothing in the passage you cited says that "Faith is but [i.e. only, merely] the evidence to the soul of its justification."
Well it is true. Now faith is the evidence of things not seen. You hear the Gospel, faith comes by hearing the Word, a faith plant starts to grow if the soil is not stone and the faith you get from God is the evidence that you're saved and justified from that moment on.
 

Albion

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Well it is true. Now faith is the evidence of things not seen.
...which is why I was careful to note that his contention was that this is ALL that Faith is or does.

There is no doubt that it's an error to say that Faith is "but" the evidence of...justification. And yet that's what the claim here was.
 
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