Who is "him that justifieth the ungodly"?

[Messy]

That ^ is what has been posted in some of the messages here, but I was referring to other ones in which the poster insisted that faith did nothing because the person was heaven-bound already, thanks to having been predestined to it.

Such was that person's own idea of predestination, but I do also admit that if the posts are poorly worded, we who read them can't be absolutely sure what the writer intended.

It sounds like this:

exactly when this justification is applied to the elect is a question on which Reformed theologians have not always agreed. Traditionally and almost universally, Reformed theology has affirmed that sinners are justified / pronounced righteous before God upon faith in Christ. This is the well-known Reformation dogma, justification by faith alone (sola fide).

The doctrine of “eternal justification,” by contrast, affirms that God pronounces elect sinners righteous from eternity, that their justification is not made actual or complete in time but in eternity past. Though a given elect sinner is yet unregenerate and unbelieving, he is justified; and his coming to faith merely brings to him an awareness or realization of his eternal justification by God’s grace.

Eternal justification reasons from the standpoint of God’s eternal and electing decree. God chose a people to save and decreed that Christ the Son would come as their substitute and surety in anticipation of which the elect are pronounced righteous in Christ. They are “in Christ” from eternity by God’s decree and are therefore justified from eternity. Being “in Christ” from eternity they cannot be considered guilty but righteous before God based on the redemptive work of Christ.

Hyper-Calvinism and the Free Offer (Part 3/3) - Credo Magazine

By Fred Zaspel-- (Previous posts in this series: Part1, Part 2) The Doctrine of Eternal Justification: A Critique Definition Justification is a pronouncement of righteousness. It is God’s “legal” or official declaration that a person stands “righteous” before him as judged by his law. This...

credomag.com

 

[prism]

It sounds like this:

exactly when this justification is applied to the elect is a question on which Reformed theologians have not always agreed. Traditionally and almost universally, Reformed theology has affirmed that sinners are justified / pronounced righteous before God upon faith in Christ. This is the well-known Reformation dogma, justification by faith alone (sola fide).

The doctrine of “eternal justification,” by contrast, affirms that God pronounces elect sinners righteous from eternity, that their justification is not made actual or complete in time but in eternity past. Though a given elect sinner is yet unregenerate and unbelieving, he is justified; and his coming to faith merely brings to him an awareness or realization of his eternal justification by God’s grace.

Eternal justification reasons from the standpoint of God’s eternal and electing decree. God chose a people to save and decreed that Christ the Son would come as their substitute and surety in anticipation of which the elect are pronounced righteous in Christ. They are “in Christ” from eternity by God’s decree and are therefore justified from eternity. Being “in Christ” from eternity they cannot be considered guilty but righteous before God based on the redemptive work of Christ.

Hyper-Calvinism and the Free Offer (Part 3/3) - Credo Magazine

By Fred Zaspel-- (Previous posts in this series: Part1, Part 2) The Doctrine of Eternal Justification: A Critique Definition Justification is a pronouncement of righteousness. It is God’s “legal” or official declaration that a person stands “righteous” before him as judged by his law. This...

credomag.com

Of course that is all built on speculation, deduction, and other forms of men's reasonings, but it gave me a better understanding where brightflame is coming from. Thanks.

 

[brightfame52]

No one can be "reconciled" who doesn't need it. No one can be reconciled unless he's first "on the outs" with the other person.

Get it now??

You dont get it either

 

[brightfame52]

I think reconciliation has to come from 2 sides. If God could reconcile us onesided, we wouldn't have to hear the Gospel and get saved. We would be born saved. We have to let ourselves be reconciled with Him. He just got rid of the sin nature, but the sin nature is not dead yet when we live in sin, although it died with Him 2000 years ago. I am also not physically raised yet. I have no new body like Jesus, although I died and got raised with Christ 2000 years ago.

So you saying they werent all the way reconciled in Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

[Messy]

So you saying they werent all the way reconciled in Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Yes the relationship between God and man was not good yet, until they got saved.

 

[Messy]

Here's an answer from a reverend on a Dutch reformed forum:

In 2 Corinthians 5:19 it says that God reconciled the world to himself in Christ. But then it says in verse 20: be reconciled to God. I do not get that. The previous line says it has already happened and then it says it still has to happen. Also, verse 19 says that God no longer imputes transgressions. How about that? If someone has not repented, will they be reckoned back?

Dear reader,

An understandable question. On the surface, it seems that according to this passage of the Bible, everything is fine with everyone: the whole world is reconciled to God. Would the proponents of the doctrine of the universal atonement be right after all, who claim that everyone, even the devil, will be all right?

Well, it is clear from the whole of God's Word and also from Paul's own letters that that is not what he means. Then what?

Well, Paul shows that through the finished work of the Lord Jesus a new situation has arisen. The world was one lump of enmity against God. The world is the cosmos, the whole of created reality: creation, heaven and earth, people and nations. Creation is renewed and saved through the work of the Lord Jesus.

We call this the new birth of all things (see Matthew 19:30). That is not the same as the new birth of people (as John 3 talks about it). But this “being born again of all things” is the reconciliation of all things to God through Jesus Christ (see Coloss. 1:20). God redeems but not individual individuals, but recovers His creation. That is why we expect a new heaven and a new earth!

Now we must pay close attention to how the Lord works. In Christ He began that atonement. That is why it literally says so in 2 Corinthians 5: 19 (and the SV has also left it very literally): "God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself." The last verb form indicates a continuing thing. The foundation for the new creation is laid in Christ. Something definite happened at Calvary; that will never be undone.

But the Lord is still working on the effect of that. For how will people personally share in the miracle of the Atonement, so that they will soon receive a place on the reconciled earth? Only if they learn to believe in the crucified Christ.

To bring to that faith God sends heralds of the glad tidings of the reconciliation (see Rom. 10:14 and 15). And what is the content of their message? “People, you are all okay”? No! God sends His heralds as ambassadors who bring their hearers before God in preaching (see 2 Cor. 5:10). They proclaim that there is atonement for ungodly people in the blood of the Lamb. And with great earnestness they urge on behalf of their King, "Be reconciled to God." Yes, it is according to 2 Cor. 5:20 even so that God Himself kneels before us and begs us to be reconciled to Him. So: accept that reconciliation, which the Lord Jesus has earned!

That gives a tremendous seriousness and urgency to the message: it's make or break. He who comes to faith, who allows himself to be won over by the power of the Holy Spirit, is in Christ. And with that he/she is already a new creation (see verse 17). But when we reject the Atonement, we remain under the wrath of God (John 3:36).

Rev. P.D.J. Buijs

Refoweb | De hele wereld met God verzoend | Refoweb

www.refoweb.nl

 

[brightfame52]

Yes the relationship between God and man was not good yet, until they got saved.

So you discredit Christs death, it plainly says they were reconciled to God by the death of His Son.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

You saying the relationship with God wasnt good even though God is reconciled to them.

 

[Messy]

So you discredit Christs death, it plainly says they were reconciled to God by the death of His Son.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

You saying the relationship with God wasnt good even though God is reconciled to them.

No I don't discredit Christ's death. I discredit the thought that people don't have to respond and accept His offer to become reconciled with God. Jesus wept when Jerusalem rejected Him. Their relationship with God was not good and for some of those it will never be good.
My relationship with God was not good when I did not believe He existed and mocked Him for fun. You want to make me believe my relationship with God was good then? Then why did I have to get saved if I was already reconciled and justified anyway?

Daniel 9

Now while I was speaking, praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel,

“Seventy [e]weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
[f]To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint [g]the Most Holy.


To make reconciliation for iniquity. That's the offer, that Jesus died for us, but you have to accept it.

Reconciliation: make atonement

Strong’s Definitions
כָּפַר kâphar, kaw-far'; a primitive root; to cover (specifically with bitumen); figuratively, to expiate or condone, to placate or cancel:—appease, make (an atonement, cleanse, disannul, forgive, be merciful, pacify, pardon, purge (away), put off, (make) reconcile(-liation).

 

[Josiah]

No he said:
Sure people Christ died for are born sinners in the flesh and all that, even enemies, but scripture says people Christ died for were reconciled to God while in that sinful condition Rom 5:10.

@Messy
@brightfame52


Christ died for all (or at least that's what the Bible specifically, repeatedly, verbatim states - although some people don't agree with God there).

So, YES, justification is THERE for them (indeed, for all - just as the Bible says; Christ earned it for everyone.

But nowhere does the Bible state that because it's THERE for them, thus they have it whether they have faith or denounce and repudiate Christ and spit in His face. No, the Bible says there is no salvation apart from faith.

It's NOT the Cross ALONE (or those radical Calvinists who invented universalism 300 years ago would be right and the Bible wrong). It's the Cross AND faith. Both/and. The Cross establishes justification, faith apprehends and applies it to the individual.

For God so loved the world (everyone) that He gave His only begotten son (the Cross) that whosoever (because it's "there" for everyone) believes (faith) shall not perish but had everlasting life. The verse is not "For God so loved a tiny few (and you won't be told who - but it's probably not you) that He gave His only begotten son to just them so that they therefore are justified whether they believe or spit in the face of Jesus - doens't matter."

19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

IF indeed you continue in the faith.

Can't get any clearer.

Yup, faith is essential.



.

 

[brightfame52]

messy

No I don't discredit Christ's death. I discredit the thought that people don't have to respond and accept His offer to become reconciled with God.

Yes you do discredit His death, because it plainly states they were reconciled to God while being enemies, not by responding. Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

[Josiah]

messy



Yes you do discredit His death, because it plainly states they were reconciled to God while being enemies, not by responding. Rom 5:10

It does NOT say that therefore the individual has personal justification apart from faith.

You are simply ignoring (or denying) all those Scriptures that repeatedly, verbatim, specifically state that faith is essential.


.

 

[Albion]

Yes you do discredit His death, because it plainly states they were reconciled to God while being enemies, not by responding. Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

By failing to bother with what the Apostle had to say in the verses that led up to Roman 5:10, you fail to understand that he's already explained that we are saved by the whole process of Christ paying for the sins of mankind AND our acceptance by Faith of his substitutionary sacrifice.

As a result, you misread Romans 5:10 to say that Faith is not needed, whereas he's already covered that point and now is speaking of the life we can live, having been born again by Faith.

If you are unwilling to accept that you made a mistake, now that it's been explained to you, at least try reading Romans 5:1-2:

"1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand."

 

[Messy]

-

 

[brightfame52]

By failing to bother with what the Apostle had to say in the verses that led up to Roman 5:10, you fail to understand that he's already explained that we are saved by the whole process of Christ paying for the sins of mankind AND our acceptance by Faith of his substitutionary sacrifice.

As a result, you misread Romans 5:10 to say that Faith is not needed, whereas he's already covered that point and now is speaking of the life we can live, having been born again by Faith.

If you are unwilling to accept that you made a mistake, now that it's been explained to you, at least try reading Romans 5:1-2:

"1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand."

According to Rom 5:10 how were they reconciled to God and when ?

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

[Albion]

According to Rom 5:10 how were they reconciled to God and when ?

I invited you to read Paul's letter to the Romans, starting from earlier than Chapter 5, and I explained why that's important to do.

As a matter of fact, I reproduced the critical verses for you in post #612, so it'll be really easy.

THEN, if you don't understand the words there, ask me about whatever part of it doesn't make sense to you. Thanks.

 

[Messy]

messy



Yes you do discredit His death, because it plainly states they were reconciled to God while being enemies, not by responding. Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Geerhardus Vos, in his treatment of "The Pauline Conception of Reconciliation" (Redemptive History and Biblical Interpretation, pp. 361-365) crystallises the concept by summarising thus: "the apostle means by reconciliation an objective transaction accomplished by God in Christ" and that "the exercise of justifying faith forms the subjective reflex of the reconciliation", by which God and sinners become reconciled to each other.

Ministries of Reconciliation | Christian Library

www.christianstudylibrary.org

 

[Messy]

The old man crucified is when the individual has moved from being “in Adam” to being “in Christ.” As a result of being “in Christ” we have come to share in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. What happened to Jesus has now been applied to us in such a way that it happens to us: the old man [who I am in my enslavement to sin] is put to death and life is given to a “new man” I am imparted with the Holy Spirit so that Christ’s resurrection life is at work in me.

The Old Man Crucified: The Basics

In Romans 6:6, the Apostle Paul writes, “We know that our old self [or old man] was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.” As we engage a series on “the old man,” we want to ask the basic question: what is the...

www.placefortruth.org

 

[brightfame52]

I invited you to read Paul's letter to the Romans, starting from earlier than Chapter 5, and I explained why that's important to do.

As a matter of fact, I reproduced the critical verses for you in post #612, so it'll be really easy.

THEN, if you don't understand the words there, ask me about whatever part of it doesn't make sense to you. Thanks.

Again, how were they reconciled to God according to Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

[Albion]

Again, how were they reconciled to God according to Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Very well.

By failing to bother with what the Apostle had to say in the verses that led up to Romans 5:10, you fail to understand that he's already explained that we are saved by the whole process of Christ paying for the sins of mankind AND our acceptance by Faith of his substitutionary sacrifice.

As a result, you misread Romans 5:10 to say that Faith is not needed, whereas he's already covered that point and now is speaking of the life we can live, having been born again by Faith.

Romans 5:1-2:

"1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God
through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand."

Or you may prefer the explanation as given by Geerhardus Vos, which Messy reproduced for you:

"'...the apostle means by reconciliation an objective transaction accomplished by God in Christ" and that "the exercise of justifying faith forms the subjective reflex of the reconciliation."'

 

[brightfame52]

Geerhardus Vos, in his treatment of "The Pauline Conception of Reconciliation" (Redemptive History and Biblical Interpretation, pp. 361-365) crystallises the concept by summarising thus: "the apostle means by reconciliation an objective transaction accomplished by God in Christ" and that "the exercise of justifying faith forms the subjective reflex of the reconciliation", by which God and sinners become reconciled to each other.

Ministries of Reconciliation | Christian Library

www.christianstudylibrary.org

Im aware of views like that, however Im speaking about objective reconciliation, that's a finished reconciliation by Christs death alone which you have denied, the writer hasn't denied it !