Who is "him that justifieth the ungodly"?

[brightfame52]

The free gift is of many offences unto justification !

Rom 5:16

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

Justification here is stated as a Free Gift in light of our many offences, and it comes through the Person and work of Jesus Christ or His Blood for His Church, His Sheep.

For them, He shed His Blood to satisfy the sentence of the Law against them, The Law which they had broken, its punishment was Justly executed upon Him, as the Head of the Church, not for all men without exception ! This is being Justified by His Blood Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

The word for Justify here means acquitted , the greek word dikaioó:

I make righteous, defend the cause of, plead for the righteousness (innocence) of, acquit, justify; hence: I regard as righteous.

That word acquit means:

to relieve from a charge of fault or crime; declare not guilty:

Once the Lord Jesus Christ tasted death for all whom He died as Per Heb 1:9, it is stated this Heb 1:3

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

That word purged is the word katharismos and it denotes among other things :

a cleansing from the guilt of sins

Thats an acquittal from them, which is Justification !

When Christ died for the sins of the Church, all for whom He died, by that alone, they were actually Justified Rom 5:18

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Yes, the Free Gift here is that which is also referred to in Rom 5:16

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

Its Justification, or Acquittal from the guilt of sins they have committed. This is a Free Gift by Imputation to their Account because of Christ's Blood which cleansed them ! Heb 1:3 !

Back to Rom 5:18, the sentence of condemnation and death actually came upon the elect in Adam, their Federal and Natural Head, while they were yet not born, but when Adam sinned, they inherited being sinners and the corresponding nature and death !

But when Christ, the Second Adam on their behalf fulfilled the Law of God, and cleansed them from their sins by His Blood, they were actually Justified thereby, simply because the sentence of God was actually inflicted upon Him on their stead, hence all their sins were put away, as in Daniel its written Dan 9:24

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

As David knew Ps 103 :12

12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.= Justification !

By His Obedience for them, the law was Satisfied in FULL, and to confirm it, He was raised for their Justification or because of it Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Which confirms the Truth that they were Justifed by His Blood alone Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified/acquitted by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

So, Justification of this sort is not the result or consequences of ones faith, as an act of the creature, but solely a consequence of the Death of Christ, or His Blood, and God as Judge, adjudged all for whom Christ died unto Life, hence Rom 5:18

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Its a Free Gift given by imputation without faith Rom 5:16

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 10

 

[Albion]

So, Justification of this sort is not the result or consequences of ones faith, as an act of the creature, but solely a consequence of the Death of Christ, or His Blood, and God as Judge, adjudged all for whom Christ died unto Life, hence Rom 5:18

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Its a Free Gift given by imputation without faith Rom 5:16

That's a good start, so far as the basis for salvation is understood. But you missed the fullness of Paul's letter to the Romans by stopping your reading too soon. The thought he is explaining here is continued through to its conclusion in Romans 9, particularly in Romans 9:30 and 32.

Here is Romans 9:30--

"What does all this mean? Even though the Gentiles were not trying to follow God’s standards, they were made right with God. And it was by faith that this took place."

Paul develops his teaching from Chapter 5 all with way through to Chapter 9, taking up every one of the possible "ins and outs" of justification and salvation--Christ's sacrifice, the Law's new meaning, Man's hopes, which people are referred to, how we will live life as a result of being redeemed, etc. and etc. It's almost too careful an explanation, but he moves it along, step by step, until he reaches the payoff.

It's by FAITH that we actualize the gift made for us by God!

 

[brightfame52]

That's a good start, so far as the basis for salvation is understood. But you missed the fullness of Paul's letter to the Romans by stopping your reading too soon. The thought he is explaining here is continued through to its conclusion in Romans 9, particularly in Romans 9:30 and 32.

Here is Romans 9:30--

"What does all this mean? Even though the Gentiles were not trying to follow God’s standards, they were made right with God. And it was by faith that this took place."

Paul develops his teaching from Chapter 5 all with way through to Chapter 9, taking up every one of the possible "ins and outs" of justification and salvation--Christ's sacrifice, the Law's new meaning, Man's hopes, which people are referred to, how we will live life as a result of being redeemed, etc. and etc. It's almost too careful an explanation, but he moves it along, step by step, until he reaches the payoff.

It's by FAITH that we actualize the gift made for us by God!

Post 581, did you understand it ?

 

[Albion]

Post 581, did you understand it ?

Yes. And I already told you that your interpretation of the verse is in error.

 

[Messy]

Hyper-Calvinism and the Free Offer (Part 3/3) - Credo Magazine

By Fred Zaspel-- (Previous posts in this series: Part1, Part 2) The Doctrine of Eternal Justification: A Critique Definition Justification is a pronouncement of righteousness. It is God’s “legal” or official declaration that a person stands “righteous” before him as judged by his law. This...

credomag.com

the New Testament plainly describes all unbelievers as “condemned already” (Jn. 3:18; cf. 3:36). “Just as” all the non-elect, believers were themselves children of wrath (Eph. 2:1-3) and are therefore brands snatched from the fire that apart from faith would have been their end (Zech. 3:2). Before faith the elect are guilty, condemned, and the objects of God’s wrath. That is to say, they are not yet justified. God justifies the believing sinner (Rom. 4:5). Once again, peace with God comes via faith (Rom. 5:1).

 

[brightfame52]

Yes. And I already told you that your interpretation of the verse is in error.

So rehearse the points I made with me so I can see if you understood them.

 

[brightfame52]

Hyper-Calvinism and the Free Offer (Part 3/3) - Credo Magazine

By Fred Zaspel-- (Previous posts in this series: Part1, Part 2) The Doctrine of Eternal Justification: A Critique Definition Justification is a pronouncement of righteousness. It is God’s “legal” or official declaration that a person stands “righteous” before him as judged by his law. This...

credomag.com

the New Testament plainly describes all unbelievers as “condemned already” (Jn. 3:18; cf. 3:36). “Just as” all the non-elect, believers were themselves children of wrath (Eph. 2:1-3) and are therefore brands snatched from the fire that apart from faith would have been their end (Zech. 3:2). Before faith the elect are guilty, condemned, and the objects of God’s wrath. That is to say, they are not yet justified. God justifies the believing sinner (Rom. 4:5). Once again, peace with God comes via faith (Rom. 5:1).

How are unbelievers, enemies that Christ died for, condemned when scripture says they were reconciled to God by His death while being enemies and unbelievers Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

[Albion]

I see what your reasoning is, but you simply cannot reach a decision or think you've understood when you don't consider the whole of scripture or, in this case, not even the whole of this one book of scripture.

You said that faith has nothing to do with it, but scripture says the exact opposite. And you were shown the chapter and verse where Paul in his Epistle to the Romans--the very same book on which you were basing your mistaken claim--said that it is by faith that we are made right with God!

That settles the matter, although there are other places in the Bible which say essentially the same thing.

 

[Messy]

How are unbelievers, enemies that Christ died for, condemned when scripture says they were reconciled to God by His death while being enemies and unbelievers Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Because the Bible always says 2 opposite things that are both true?


Ephesians 2
2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus

It says we were children of wrath and followed satan. We were flesh. The old man died with Him on the cross, He took our sins in His body. That was done away, but you get saved when you believe that He died for you and God raised Him from the dead and when you confess that. You hear the Word and faith comes by hearing the Word of Christ and is a gift from God.

It says we were dead in trespasses and sins, we walked according to satan. So He only raised us when we got saved and 2000 years ago we died and got raised with Christ, but only when we got saved that really happened, because He reconciled us with Him, meaning He did His part, but in order for the relationship to be good again we have to get reconciled to Him, do our part.

2 Corinthians 5

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.


So although I died with Christ 2000 years ago, I was not a new creation before I got saved, because I did not have Christ nor the Spirit.

Romans 8
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

I first was a child of wrath.


18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not [d]imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

 

[brightfame52]

Because the Bible always says 2 opposite things that are both true?


Ephesians 2
2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus

It says we were children of wrath and followed satan. We were flesh. The old man died with Him on the cross, He took our sins in His body. That was done away, but you get saved when you believe that He died for you and God raised Him from the dead and when you confess that. You hear the Word and faith comes by hearing the Word of Christ and is a gift from God.

It says we were dead in trespasses and sins, we walked according to satan. So He only raised us when we got saved and 2000 years ago we died and got raised with Christ, but only when we got saved that really happened, because He reconciled us with Him, meaning He did His part, but in order for the relationship to be good again we have to get reconciled to Him, do our part.

2 Corinthians 5

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.


So although I died with Christ 2000 years ago, I was not a new creation before I got saved, because I did not have Christ nor the Spirit.

Romans 8
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

I first was a child of wrath.


18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not [d]imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

You didnt answer the question. Sure people Christ died for are born sinners in the flesh and all that, even enemies, but scripture says people Christ died for were reconciled to God while in that sinful condition Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Then others are in that condition condemned, and under Gods wrath Jn 3:18,36 so what makes the difference ?

 

[Messy]

You didnt answer the question. Sure people Christ died for are born sinners in the flesh and all that, even enemies, but scripture says people Christ died for were reconciled to God while in that sinful condition Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Then others are in that condition condemned, and under Gods wrath Jn 3:18,36 so what makes the difference ?

They were reconciled, but they were also told for that reason to be reconciled with God.

They saw Jesus do miracles and still didn't believe that He was the Messiah, because they loved darkness, but some of those, like a load of priests, later got saved after He was risen and Paul had hope to save some of them and that they would be grafted back in.

Why did Paul say that they had to stay on the ship or else they would die? When the angel had already said they would not die.
Acts 27
22 And now I urge you to take [f]heart, for there will be no loss of life among you, but only of the ship. 23 For there stood by me this night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve, 24 saying, ‘Do not be afraid, Paul; you must be brought before Caesar; and indeed God has granted you all those who sail with you.’ 25 Therefore take heart, men, for I believe God that it will be just as it was told me. 26 However, we must run aground on a certain island.”

And as the sailors were seeking to escape from the ship, when they had let down the skiff into the sea, under pretense of putting out anchors from the prow, 31 Paul said to the centurion and the soldiers, “Unless these men stay in the ship, you cannot be saved.” 32 Then the soldiers cut away the ropes of the skiff and let it fall off.

It's best to just believe all that the Bible says, even though it seems to contradict each other and if your brain doesn't get it, hang it on a coat rack, cause 5 kilo brain can't understand God anyway.

 

[brightfame52]

messy

They were reconciled, but they were also told for that reason to be reconciled with God.

So how could they be reconciled to God and be under Gods wrath and condemned at the same time ?

The word reconciled is the greek word katallassō :

o change, exchange, as coins for others of equivalent value

1. to reconcile (those who are at variance)
2. return to favour with, be reconciled to one
3. to receive one into favour

Also it is in the aorist tense here in the verse and indicative mood, its a completed act and they are in that state as a matter of fact.

So how can they be under Gods wrath and condemned at the same time ?

 

[Albion]

You didnt answer the question. Sure people Christ died for are born sinners in the flesh and all that, even enemies, but scripture says people Christ died for were reconciled to God while in that sinful condition Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

So how could they be reconciled to God and be under Gods wrath and condemned at the same time ?

No one can be "reconciled" who doesn't need it. No one can be reconciled unless he's first "on the outs" with the other person.

Get it now??

 

[Messy]

messy



So how could they be reconciled to God and be under Gods wrath and condemned at the same time ?

The word reconciled is the greek word katallassō :

o change, exchange, as coins for others of equivalent value

1. to reconcile (those who are at variance)
2. return to favour with, be reconciled to one
3. to receive one into favour

Also it is in the aorist tense here in the verse and indicative mood, its a completed act and they are in that state as a matter of fact.

So how can they be under Gods wrath and condemned at the same time ?

I think reconciliation has to come from 2 sides. If God could reconcile us onesided, we wouldn't have to hear the Gospel and get saved. We would be born saved. We have to let ourselves be reconciled with Him. He just got rid of the sin nature, but the sin nature is not dead yet when we live in sin, although it died with Him 2000 years ago. I am also not physically raised yet. I have no new body like Jesus, although I died and got raised with Christ 2000 years ago.

 

[Messy]

God hates evildoers. God so loved the world. He hated our fleshly sin nature so much that He had it killed. That's the wrath part. He loved us so much that we can get a new spirit through the death and resurrection of Jesus and be reconciled.

 

[Josiah]

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

@brightfame52

And the way that reconciliation is apprehended or applied to the individual is by faith. Friend, you seem to want to delete faith from personal justification, to create salvation void of faith.

Maybe this will help.... traditional, classical theology speaks of OBJECTIVE JUSTIFICATION and SUBJECTIVE JUSTIFICATION. Objective is the justification that is THERE for everyone, accomplished by Christ at the Cross and Empty Tomb. That's what the verse you quote is addressing. It IS accomplished, it IS there.... Christ DID it. But this must be applied to an individual, that's called Subjective Justification. And the way that's done is by faith. John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that He GAVE His only begotten son (objective justification) that whosoever (because it's "there" for everyone) believes (subjective justification) has everlasting life. It's not either/or, it's both/and. It has to be there... and be applied.


Blessings!


Josiah


.

 

[Messy]

Verzoening - Concordante Publicaties

Als twee partijen, die eerst vijanden van elkaar waren, bij elkaar komen en weer vrede sluiten, dan noemen we dat verzoening. Verzoening hoeft niet altijd van twee kanten te komen. Soms wil de ene een ruzie wel bijleggen, maar blijft de andere boos. Dan heb je éénzijdige verzoening. Misschien...

www.concordante-publicaties.nl

When two parties that were once enemies come together and make peace again, we call it reconciliation. Reconciliation doesn't always have to be a two-way street. Sometimes one wants to settle a quarrel, but the other remains angry. Then you have one-sided reconciliation. You may be familiar with the story of Jacob and Esau. After deceiving his father and stealing his brother's blessing, Jacob flees, fearing that Esau would kill him. When they meet again years later, Jacob still fears that his brother will attack him. But when they meet, they fall into each other's arms and an enemy turns out to have become a friend: that is even mutual reconciliation!

Because we as humans sin, make mistakes, and are therefore unjust and miss our target, there has been a break in our relationship with God. We are estranged from Him and we have even become hostile to God. So there is a lot between God and us! But God's loving father's heart is looking for his creation, and He gives his Son to restore the relationship.

To describe how the relationship with God is restored, Paul uses two words: katallassō, "to reconcile," and apokatallassō, which even means "to reconcile one another." There is also something in those Greek words that means “to change,” and that is exactly what happens: an enemy becomes a friend! Through the sacrifice of His Son, God has done away with what stood in His way. We read about this in 2 Cor 5:

(…) In Christ God has reconciled the world to himself, not imputing their offenses to them, and entrusting to us the word of reconciliation. For Christ's sake we beseech: Be reconciled to God!
(2Co 5:19-20 – after NCV)
＋
This verse seems contradictory. First we read that God reconciles the world, everyone, to Himself. Then we are called to be reconciled to God! Are we now reconciled or not? We can understand this contradiction if we consider that there is a difference between "reconciling" and "mutually reconciling". It doesn't always have to be both ways. From God's side there is nothing against us anymore. He no longer imputes our offenses to us. But how do we humans react to that? Sometimes a person still remains hostile to God. Then the reconciliation is not mutual. Therefore they beg for Christ: be reconciled to God! Let us also no longer be hostile, but be at peace with God.

---

 

[Albion]

I think reconciliation has to come from 2 sides. If God could reconcile us onesided, we wouldn't have to hear the Gospel and get saved. We would be born saved.

...which is exactly what some of our colleagues here believe and then tell us to believe it also.

To be more precise about it, they believe that some of us are born saved and faith plays no part in that, but that others among us are born lost and have no way to appropriate the saving work of Christ on the Cross.

 

[Messy]

...which is exactly what some of our colleagues here believe and then tell us to believe it also.

To be more precise about it, they believe that some of us are born saved and faith plays no part in that, but that others among us are born lost and have no way to appropriate the saving work of Christ on the Cross.

No he said:
Sure people Christ died for are born sinners in the flesh and all that, even enemies, but scripture says people Christ died for were reconciled to God while in that sinful condition Rom 5:10.

Which is true, but he says that's only for the predestined and because they are reconciled they later come to faith, but the text says He reconciled the world with Him, not only the predestined.

The Dutch link I copied from, I only copied half, cause after that he starts about universalism from Colossians 1:20, which I don't agree with of course.

19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

IF indeed you continue in the faith.

Can't get any clearer.

 

[Albion]

No he said:
Sure people Christ died for are born sinners in the flesh and all that, even enemies, but scripture says people Christ died for were reconciled to God while in that sinful condition Rom 5:10.

Which is true, but he says that's only for the predestined and because they are reconciled they later come to faith,

That ^ is what has been posted in some of the messages here, but I was referring to other ones in which the poster insisted that faith did nothing because the person was heaven-bound already, thanks to having been predestined to it.

Such was that person's own idea of predestination, but I do also admit that if the posts are poorly worded, we who read them can't be absolutely sure what the writer intended.