Who is "him that justifieth the ungodly"?

[Messy]

All right, but this is exactly what I read, and for me it's a little bit different--

Oh yes. I can't remember ever being told that I died with Jesus before I got saved. I believed Jesus died for me on the cross.

 

[prism]

Thats error. A person Christ died for has been Justified before God before they are born, they are born Justified. Then later on in their life God gives them the New Birth with the Gift of Faith to believe it.

Do you have any Scriptures for that? (esp. being justified before one is born).
I mean, if they were declared 'righteous' before birth, why the need for the effectual call?

 

[brightfame52]

Adds nothing to Justification before God !

Faith, or believing, the act of the creature [old or new] adds nothing to Justification before God, that fact was accomplished solely by Christ's Blood, however it does give Joy and Comforth in the Knowledge of the fact, Paul's meaning here Rom 15:13

Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

Note: Believing is through the Power of the Holy Ghost !

Yet Justification is a Divine Fact before we believe it, Faith causes us to believe the Fact of our free Justification, as it is made known in the Gospel Rom 1:17. Justification is our Righteousness, and is made known to the Spiritual eye of Faith, and so the Gospel is also called the word of Faith Rom 10:8,17 ! 10

 

[brightfame52]

Do you have any Scriptures for that? (esp. being justified before one is born).
I mean, if they were declared 'righteous' before birth, why the need for the effectual call?

The scripture that I have been sharing the whole time in this thread.

Do you believe that Jesus Christ death alone, Justified before God, them He died for ? Yes or No

 

[Josiah]

Objective justification is “God’s verdict of ‘not guilty’ upon the world for the sake of Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection.” Subjective justification means that the benefits of God’s verdict of ‘not guilty’ become yours through faith.

This is exactly what he says

Not as I read our friend. He's suggesting 1) Christ died ONLY for the elect and 2) THEY are personally justified even before they have faith - thus a justification apart from faith.

You get saved when you believe ur old man died with Jesus on the cross. You believe that you died on the cross and He carried your sins and it happens because it happened then and you believe it.

No. It happen then because of grace.

I receive it, apprehend it, rely on it, apply it by the divine gift of faith.


.

 

[Messy]

Adds nothing to Justification before God !

Faith, or believing, the act of the creature [old or new] adds nothing to Justification before God, that fact was accomplished solely by Christ's Blood, however it does give Joy and Comforth in the Knowledge of the fact, Paul's meaning here Rom 15:13

Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

Note: Believing is through the Power of the Holy Ghost !

Yet Justification is a Divine Fact before we believe it, Faith causes us to believe the Fact of our free Justification, as it is made known in the Gospel Rom 1:17. Justification is our Righteousness, and is made known to the Spiritual eye of Faith, and so the Gospel is also called the word of Faith Rom 10:8,17 ! 10

It makes it become subjective.
He bought us with His blood 2000 years ago and when you believe that it becomes reality and faith is a gift from God that you get when He sends someone who speaks the Word.

 

[brightfame52]

It makes it become subjective.
He bought us with His blood 2000 years ago and when you believe that it becomes reality and faith is a gift from God that you get when He sends someone who speaks the Word.

Sounds like you might be coming to a right understanding.

 

[Messy]

It's all way too complicated. This is clear:

The Old Man of Sin is Dead and Gone - Christ Crucified

“For we know that our old self was crucified with Him in order that our body of sin (our sinful nature) might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin.” Romans 6:6 This verse is one of the most important verses in the New Testament. If John 3:16 best conveys […]

christcrucified.info

Since we were spiritually born into sin, the only way we could ever be delivered from our sinful nature was through death. This is precisely what God did – He included us in the death of His Son. Our old self, that wretched man of sin – our sinful nature – was crucified with Christ! That “sin factory” within us was destroyed! Since Christ’s death took place not just two thousand years ago on Calvary but in God’s eternal heavenly realm, Christ’s holy death on our behalf transcended time and space. Therefore when we received Christ into our heart, we were immersed into His death. When Christ died, we died with Him!

• “in order that our body of sin (our sinful nature) might be done away with.” The phrase “done away with” in the New Testament Greek is katargeo, which means destroyed or removed. This is the same Greek word used in 2 Corinthians 3:14 to explain that the Old Covenant veil that blinds Jews to seeing Jesus as their Messiah is removed whenever someone turns to Christ. The Old Covenant prophets foretold of this divine heart transplant: “Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh (Ezekiel 36:26)

 

[Ammi]

I'm a sinner. Father God loved me and wanted to save me, so He devised a plan where His only begotten or sired son, being free of sin, died the death of a sinner so that I, through faith, could live. I received this new life through the work of the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Godhead, or Trinity. This offer of life is, I believe, available to all who will receive it.
"16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." - John 3: 16, 17

 

[brightfame52]

Same Justification and Righteousness !

The OT Prophets/ Saints were Justified by Faith Righteousness [Righteousness revealed to Faith] just as the NT Apostles and Saints were Rom 3:21-22

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

This is that Faith Righteousness that most of the entire nation of israel did not have as per Rom 9:30-32

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Now this Righteousness is witnessed to in the Law and the Prophets Rom 3:21,22

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

And it was foundationed in Christ Vs 22

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

That proves that the OT Saints had Faith in Christ's blood !

It was witnessed by who in the OT ? By Abraham Gen 15:6

6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness. God showed him Christ's day Jn 8:56

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Even before Abraham, Noah, for it is written of him Heb 11:7

7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

And before him Abel Heb 11:4

4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

This Righteousness as it is in the NT Rom 1:17

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

 

[brightfame52]

messy

Therefore when we received Christ into our heart, we were immersed into His death. When Christ died, we died with Him!

I dont believe thats accurate, those who Christ died for 2000 yrs ago, actually died with Him then, not when they believe in Him, even though thats inevitable, but when He died, they died in and with Him, thats why Paul wrote 2 Cor 5:14

14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: or then all died

The ASV reads:

For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that one died for all, therefore all died;

 

[Messy]

messy



I dont believe thats accurate, those who Christ died for 2000 yrs ago, actually died with Him then, not when they believe in Him, even though thats inevitable, but when He died, they died in and with Him, thats why Paul wrote 2 Cor 5:14

14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: or then all died

The ASV reads:

For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that one died for all, therefore all died;

He is the first born from the dead (so His brethren come later) and when you get saved you become a new creation. Verse 17

17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Before that you were not in Christ.

The Relationship Between the Terms “Old Man” and “Flesh”. - Grace Notebook

The Relationship Between the Christian and the Terms "Old Man" and "Flesh"by David C. NeedhamIntroductionThe purpose of this appendix [to Birthright, 1979 edition] is to provide some basis for comparison of the perspective of this book with what would appear to be the most common alternate point...

gracenotebook.com

Our old man’ is the old self or ego, the unregenerate man in his entirety in contrast with the new man as the regenerate man in his entirety. It is a mistake to think of the believer as both an old man and new man or as having in him both the old man and the new man, the latter in view of the regeneration and the former because of remaining corruption.”25

“Understand that the ‘old man’ is not there. The only way to stop living as if he were still there is to realize that he is not there. That is the New Testament method of teaching sanctification. The whole trouble with us, says the New Testament, is that we do not realize what we are, that we still go on thinking we are the old man, and go on trying to do things to the old man. That has been done; the old man was crucified with Christ. He is non-existent, he is no longer there… If we but saw this as we should, we would really begin to live as Christians in this world.”26

We say again, this is … a real fact; not something real in Christ ‘positionally’ in the heavenlies, but real actually on earth. When Paul said, ‘Then were all dead,”Ye are dead’ and ‘We that are dead to sin’ and ‘your old man is crucified with him,’ he meant exactly what he said.”27

“The ‘old man’ ceased to exist at our regeneration, when it was ‘put off.'”28

My old self, that self that was in Adam, was an utter slave to sin. That self has gone; I have a new self, I am a new man. The moment I realize that I am a new man I am in a better position to deal with this old nature that remains in my body, in what Paul calls my ‘mortal flesh.’ We shall find the apostle saying in chapter 7, ‘It is no more I that do it but sin that dwelleth in me’ (verse 20).

 

[Messy]

I think I found it now.
Or maybe not lol.

 

[Albion]

.

 

[prism]

I think I found it now.

Christ came as the reality of the Bronze Serpent and Destroyed Satan on the Cross

Christ came as the reality of the bronze serpent for us serpentine people to believe into Him and live; He destroyed Satan, the serpent, on the cross.

agodman.com

View attachment 2031
Christ came in the likeness of the flesh of sin as the reality of the bronze serpent; He put on the serpent’s form and brought it to the cross so that He might bring to naught him who has the might of death, that is, the devil.

Christ’s death on the cross was a devil-destroying death (Heb. 2:14). Man was the trap, Satan was trapped within man, and through incarnation God put the corrupted man on Himself brought him to the cross, and at the same time He brought Satan to the cross and destroyed him there.

Jesus had no sin in the flesh, so He could put our sin in His body and destroy it.

The Word Became Flesh - Christ came in the Likeness of the Flesh of Sin yet without Sin

The Word became flesh: Christ came in the likeness of the flesh of sin and concerning sin, but He had no sin in the flesh. Praise the Lord for Christ as our sin offering!

www.agodman.com

Sin = satan is ridiculous. Sorry for being so blunt, but didn't Watchman Nee head up his own cult called the Local Church?

 

[Messy]

Sin = satan is ridiculous. Sorry for being so blunt, but didn't Watchman Nee head up his own cult called the Local Church?

I thought yes this is it and then I was looking at my legs: eeeww is satan in there? I'm not demon posessed. The evil inclination or something, the will of the body, which Jesus gave up, but His body died with our sin in it, cause He had no sin in His body, that makes sense. His blood was pure and His body died, is gone, cause He got a new body and that's how He condemned sin in the flesh. Or something like that. Or lets just say it's a mystery.

 

[Albion]

One thing to be noticed with that movement is that it rebuts matters that aren't actually doctrines of conventional Christianity. For instance, was Christ born in the winter? Were believers commanded to celebrate Christmas? And on what day?

None of those matters is a Biblical directive, but on the other hand none of them is taught as doctrine by the usual church bodies anyway.

 

[brightfame52]

Justification by His Blood !

Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Now Justification by His Blood means at least these two things #1 They for whom He shed His Blood and Justified, they have been made Righteous ! The word Justified here in this verse is dikaioō and means:

I.
to render righteous or such he ought to be

II.
to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered

III.
to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

All for whom He shed His Blood are by that declared Righteous, pronounced righteous !

And its not a result of faith or believing, but in His Blood ! It could read Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified in his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

The Justification is within the sphere of the Blood, not because of an act of the creature !

Its by the blood, that satisfied Law and Justice !

#2 They for whom The blood was shed for and Justified thereby are saved from wrath, because they are delivered from the penalty of sin ! All for whom Christ died are Justified in His Blood and have been delivered from the wrath to come as Per 1 Thess 1:10

10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

See when He was raised from the dead after having died for THEIR OFFENCES, that Resurrection gave Evidence of all for whom He died, SHED HIS BLOOD for, it was evidence of their Justification from all their offences Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for[because of] our offences, and was raised again for[because of] our justification.

So they have been delivered from the wrath that others are not delivered from for their offences as Eph 5:6

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

What things ? These things Eph 5:3-5

3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Those Christ died for, shed His blood for, have been saved by the blood, from wrath , which is against those things, and a lot more, this list is by no means exhaustive, but neverthess, all for whom Christ shed His Blood for, in His Blood they are delivered from the wrath to come ! 10

 

[Messy]

Justification by His Blood !

Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Now Justification by His Blood means at least these two things #1 They for whom He shed His Blood and Justified, they have been made Righteous ! The word Justified here in this verse is dikaioō and means:

I.
to render righteous or such he ought to be

II.
to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered

III.
to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

All for whom He shed His Blood are by that declared Righteous, pronounced righteous !

And its not a result of faith or believing, but in His Blood ! It could read Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified in his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

The Justification is within the sphere of the Blood, not because of an act of the creature !

Its by the blood, that satisfied Law and Justice !

#2 They for whom The blood was shed for and Justified thereby are saved from wrath, because they are delivered from the penalty of sin ! All for whom Christ died are Justified in His Blood and have been delivered from the wrath to come as Per 1 Thess 1:10

10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

See when He was raised from the dead after having died for THEIR OFFENCES, that Resurrection gave Evidence of all for whom He died, SHED HIS BLOOD for, it was evidence of their Justification from all their offences Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for[because of] our offences, and was raised again for[because of] our justification.

So they have been delivered from the wrath that others are not delivered from for their offences as Eph 5:6

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

What things ? These things Eph 5:3-5

3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Those Christ died for, shed His blood for, have been saved by the blood, from wrath , which is against those things, and a lot more, this list is by no means exhaustive, but neverthess, all for whom Christ shed His Blood for, in His Blood they are delivered from the wrath to come ! 10

It has to be applied by faith (put it on the door with hysop, eat His flesh, drink His blood). If Jesus died and gave His blood and then all the apostles were shy and lazy and noone ever heard the Gospel, then people could not be saved. The blood is important, but also the Spirit and the Word. Faith comes by hearing the Word. The Word, Gospel is the seed that is planted and then a faith plant comes up in the soil that bears fruit.

Jesus is our Passover Lamb.

Exodus 12​

121 Now the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying, 2 "This month shall be your beginning of months; it shall be the first month of the year to you. 3 Speak to all the congregation of Israel, saying: 'On the tenth day of this month every man shall take for himself a lamb, according to the house of his father, a lamb for a household. 4 And if the household is too small for the lamb, let him and his neighbor next to his house take it according to the number of the persons; according to each man's need you shall make your count for the lamb. 5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year. You may take it from the sheep or from the goats. 6 Now you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of the same month. Then the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it at twilight. 7 And they shall take some of the blood and put it on the two doorposts and on the lintel of the houses where they eat it. 8 Then they shall eat the flesh on that night; roasted in fire, with unleavened bread and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.

12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt on that night, and will strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord. 13 Now the blood shall be a sign for you on the houses where you are. And when I see the blood, I will pass over you; and the plague shall not be on you to destroy you when I strike the land of Egypt.

 

[Messy]

You're so extremely worried that someone says they get saved by doing a good work. Faith is a gift from God. Paul says it's not a work. We are not saved by doing good works just means we're not saved by keeping the law, because the flesh can't keep the law. It can't please God.
I have never heard anyone boast and say: look at me, how great I am! I got saved because I accepted Jesus in my heart and believed the Gospel! And then everyone is in awe. Oh how fabulous and amazing! You are saved by your own works! No. Of course not. What you can rather worry about is what they preach in some evangelical churches. One guy, they had to pray for the lost and then they would throw the Newspaper on their desk with death announcements and say: if those went to hell it's your fault, cause you didn't pray hard enough. And I believe it's true in a way, but if the whole load is thrown on a person to save everyone, then where is God and is He not capable to pray Himself or let someone else pray or send an angel, whatever if He wants to save someone? And to get rid of that guilt tripping stuff I do like hyper calvinism to be honest to balance things out.