Communion of the Saints

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RichWh1

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John 11:26
And whosoever liveth
and believeth in Me
shall never die.
Believest thou this?


Believes thou this?

Saints never die...

The middle partition is lifted...


Arsenios

We all die (physically) and The physically dead cannot pray for anyone!

Quoting Jesus out of context is anathema!



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MennoSota

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The Orthodox do not regard reposed Saints as fleshy discards...
They are living and in union with God...
They are not dead -
They hear and intercede in our behalf...
"The prayer of a righteous one availeth much", remember?
Both in this life, and in the next...

How can we be known by our love for one another if we simply disregard each other in our presumed self-importance in thinking that only God Himself is good enough for our prayers, and never pray for one another... But if we do, and the Bible commands intercessory prayer for one another, what makes anyone think that once someone perfected in Christ is dead? Not even the OT Saints were dead... Our God is the God of the Living, and the Holy Ones of God are the living, and not the dead... Jacob and Moses and Elijah are not dead... Nor is St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco...


Arsenios
There is no other mediator than Jesus Christ our Lord.
Arsenios, your teaching is that Jesus isn't enough. Ask some sinner who was only redeemed by God's grace instead...
 

Arsenios

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LOTS of Catholics do NOT ask the saints to pray FOR them,
they pray TO them (especially Mary).

How can you ask someone to pray for you without asking them???

Sheesh! :)


Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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There is no other mediator than Jesus Christ our Lord.
Arsenios, your teaching is that Jesus isn't enough. Ask some sinner who was only redeemed by God's grace instead...

Does the Bible command us to pray for one another?

Or not??

"Me and Jesus" was not discipled by Jesus...

Prayers of intercession are Biblical, Menno...


Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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There is no other mediator than Jesus Christ our Lord.

"The prayer of a righteous one availeth much..."

Arsenios, your teaching is that Jesus isn't enough.

Your slander is not Christian...

"The prayer of a righteous one availeth much..."

Ask some sinner who was only redeemed by God's grace instead...

That would be me!


Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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Does the Bible command us to pray for one another?

Or not??

"Me and Jesus" was not discipled by Jesus...

Prayers of intercession are Biblical, Menno...


Arsenios
The Bible does not call on us to pray to dead people instead of God. That is what you are advocating.
 

MennoSota

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"The prayer of a righteous one availeth much..."



Your slander is not Christian...

"The prayer of a righteous one availeth much..."



That would be me!


Arsenios
Arsenios, you BUTCHER this verse. The only prayer you need is God the Holy Spirit's prayer.
Romans 8:9-28
You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him. For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience. Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

Arsenios, you call on people who, for all you know, may be burning in hell. Why waste you hope on unrighteous persons who never were found in Christ. Arsenios, you don't even know if you are saved. What makes you think those boyz your church worships are even righteous or in heaven?
 
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Andrew

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Did Jesus pray to saints or to God?

also the last chapter of Revelation speaks worlds... here is a snippet

"And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still"
 

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Arsenios, you call on people who, for all you know, may be burning in hell.

This is an extremely valid point!!!!! That's why it's wasteful to attempt to pray to anyone rather than God. When we pray to God we ask for something and only HE can grant that.
 

Andrew

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When I first came into the Orthodox Faith as an enquirer, I was told I could pick a Saint - any icon that appealed to me... And to ask his or her help in anything that was bothering me... So I prayed to St John of Shanghai and San Francisco for helping my daughter in that city... Confessing my wretched negligence in her upbringing... An orphan son of St. John's from Shanghai ended up moving into the house next door to my daughter's house - Like most orphans, he had married a universal mother, who took over my daughter's and everyone else's supportive needs in the neighborhood...

So like most prayers, if you pray and pay attention, you will see the answer made manifest...

Arsenios
Just because something happened while you were under an impression does not make it so, that's called superstition my friend, animals can do tricks because they believe by performing a ritual they can summons a treat.
Just something to think about..
"an error doesn't become a mistake until one refuses to correct it" -JFK
 

Andrew

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Just because something happened while you were under an impression does not make it so, that's called superstition my friend, animals can do tricks because they believe by performing a ritual they can summons a treat.
Just something to think about..
"an error doesn't become a mistake until one refuses to correct it" -JFK
To clarify, your prayer was answered by God and heard by Him only, he gave you a wink there I believe
 

RichWh1

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The Bible does not call on us to pray to dead people instead of God. That is what you are advocating.

Pray for one another yes! Pray to one another no!


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MoreCoffee

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Reading the last few posts makes it look as if some here think that they know what God "hears" and from whom he "hears it" kind of like these posts were written by people with inside knowledge about God's hearing almost like they were writing under inspiration to give us the "low down" on prayer. It's amazing.
 

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The holy scriptures teach that the saints are not dead, but are fully alive in Jesus Christ, who is life itself (John 11:25; John 14:6)

The holy scriptures teach that the saints worship God, sing hymns, play instruments, make requests to Christ to avenge their martyrdom, and offer prayers for the saints on earth (Rev. 4:10, 5:8, 6:9-11).

Intercession is taught in the holy scriptures, here are some examples,

In a dream, God commanded King Abimelech to ask Abraham to intercede for him: “For [Abraham] is a prophet and he will pray for you, so you shall live” (Gen. 20:7).

When the Lord is angry with Job’s friends because they did not speak rightly about God, he tells them, “Let my servant Job pray for you because I will accept his [prayer], lest I make a terror on you” (Job 42:8).​

God did not say "pray directly to me and I will hear you, you do not need anybody on Earth to pray for you", though some here have argued that is the case.

And asking others to pray for you is also taught by example in the holy scriptures. Here are some examples,

“I exhort you, brothers, through our Lord Jesus Christ and through the love of the Spirit, to strive with me in prayers to God on my behalf, that I may be delivered from the disobedient in Judaea and that my ministry may be acceptable to the saints in Jerusalem, so that in the joy coming to you through the will of God I may rest with you” (Rom. 15:30-32).

“Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects” (James 5:16-17).​

The holy scriptures encourage Christians to approach the saints (in heaven): “But you have approached Mount Zion, the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels, and the assembly and church of the firstborn who have been enrolled in heaven, and God the judge of all, and spirits of righteous ones who have been made perfect, and Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood which speaks better than that of Abel” (Heb. 12:22-24).

The prayers of the saints (both in Earth and in heaven) are offered to God by an angel according to the scriptures: Revelation 8:3 - And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer [it] with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 - And the smoke of the incense, [which came] with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

And the man, Jesus Christ, makes intercession for the saints on Earth who are encouraged by that knowledge to pray to him for that purpose: Hebrews 7:25 - Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

No one need ask for the intercession of the saints in heaven but for those who do there is ample teaching in the holy scriptures to encourage them in that holy calling.

Those who eschew it are free to do so.

God have mercy on us all.
 

YourTruthGod

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How can you ask someone to pray for you without asking them???

Sheesh! :)


Arsenios

Are you praying aloud to the person who passed?
Do you think that people who passed can hear inside your head?
They are not God.
Why pray to someone who passed and not just pray to God?

Isaiah 8:19 When someone tells you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?
 

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Are you praying aloud to the person who passed?
Do you think that people who passed can hear inside your head?
They are not God.
Why pray to someone who passed and not just pray to God?

Isaiah 8:19 When someone tells you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?

Great post as to why we should only pray to God.
 

Josiah

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Josiah said:
1. Theoretically, asking those already in heaven to pray FOR us doesn't bother me.....


2. There's ZERO indication that those in heaven hear our prayer requests so the whole issue of submitting our requests to them may well be entirely in vain.... wasted effort perhaps better spent elsewhere.


3. As a Catholic, you KNOW that LOTS of Catholics do NOT ask the saints to pray FOR them, they pray TO them (especially Mary), expecting the saint to be the reason diving help is coming. I heard LOTS of prayers - even by the pastor -directed to MARY with every indication MARY would answer it.... nothing about "please pass this on to Jesus." Catholics may CLAIM they are doing nothing more than asking some person in heaven to pass on the request but what they DO is often very different than that.


4. Here's what I was taught on this: Jesus, keeping the 4th Commandment (because He is sinless) does what His Mommy tells Him. Proof: The Miracle of Cana. So, if YOU pray to Jesus well He is not mandated to do anything about it - He may and He may not. But if MARY asks Him, He's gotta do it. So ask Mary. That's what we were told. And that was often the point of that miracle. I have an "issue" with that


.



How can you ask someone to pray for you without asking them???



1. What I suspect our Catholic brother knows ... and what it seems ex-Catholics know.... is that often Catholics do not seek that the saint "passes on" the request to Jesus, are NOT simply asking some saint to pray FOR them, they are praying TO them, looking to the saint for why the prayer will be granted. It's a whole other enchilada, my brother.


2. Yes, I agree that GOD can hear our prayers (and this is confirmed in His Scriptures to us). But there is no indication that Christians in heaven can do so. PERHAPS they can and PERHAPS they can't. But we have no such indication in Scripture.


3. Yes, I agree with you that those in heaven are "alive" and so I do not agree that we are "consulting the dead." On the other hand, Scripture tells Christians to pray for each other, but I can't think of any Scripture that tells us to ASK others to do so (not that that's forbidden), so maybe (MAYBE!) those in heaven do pray for us but where is the indication that we are to ASK them to do so? Where is the indication they hear our requests?


4. IMO, part of the value of Christians praying WITH us is not that God is hard of hearing or that we needs LOTS to be praying the request, but rather this is PART of caring for each other here on Earth, when I pray for something, I CARE for that one (part of the limitation of praying for each other here; caring is hard to do on the 'net, it works best in person). As one of my Catholic teachers stressed, "When you pray right for something, you will find yourself doing what you can for them.... you may find that YOU are the one God uses to answer that prayer." That's always stuck with me... and I believe it. My grandpa in heaven may well be praying for me.... but that's ALL he can do. My wife praying for me can hug me, cry/laugh/rejoice with me, HELP me. Praying for each other is part of our loving/caring/serving each other, not simply because God is hard of hearing or won't listen unless X number of people are praying for it.




Happy April Fools Day



- Josiah




.
 
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Albion

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Reading the last few posts makes it look as if some here think that they know what God "hears" and from whom he "hears it" kind of like these posts were written by people with inside knowledge about God's hearing almost like they were writing under inspiration to give us the "low down" on prayer. It's amazing.

I cannot imagine why anyone would take that from the posts in question. The point was made repeatedly that we do NOT KNOW that deceased mortals CAN hear our prayers, whether or not praying to them is proper; but also that in the case of God, we have the Bibles explicit assurance concerning whether or not He hears our prayers. You know what that is, I assume.
 

atpollard

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The holy scriptures teach that the saints worship God, sing hymns, play instruments, make requests to Christ to avenge their martyrdom, and offer prayers for the saints on earth (Rev. 4:10, 5:8, 6:9-11).

Those verses do not mention anyone in Heaven praying FOR the Saints still living.

[Rev 4:10 NASB] 10 the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
(The 24 elders in Heaven worship God)

[Rev 5:8 NASB] 8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
(The 24 elders offer the prayers of the saints directly to God, it is for those alive to pray and the elders in Heaven to deliver our prayers.)

[Rev 6:9-11 NASB] 9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until [the number of] their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.
(The martyrs made requests for themselves, not for the saints still living. God told them to “rest”.)

There is no record of beings in Heaven offering prayers for beings on earth in your supporting verses.
 
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