Communion of the Saints

[Andrew]

I was at a confirmation today, just wondering because growing up Catholic I was never properly explained to why we should pray to Saints so they in return pray for us. Why not just pray directly to God?

Serious question btw, I just never got an explanation and have never recognized any particular scripture that addresses it.

 

[Albion]

According to Catholic theology, we need go-betweens or middle men to intercede with our Father because we have a lesser standing in his eyes than do those who are already in heaven.

Interestingly enough, while there is no Scripture verse that endorses praying to the dead, there are some that forbid or condemn necromancy.

I do not think that praying to the dead actually constitutes necromancy, but if the question is asked abut Biblical evidence for praying to spirit intercessors, and we consult everything that comes even close to addressing the matter, there is nothing positive.

The whole thing is based upon a rationalization (as every online defense of the practice shows!). Incidentally, this is also why the (Anglican) liturgy includes a passage in which Christ is affirmed as *our only mediator and advocate.*

 

[MennoSota]

1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.
The praying to the saints is one of those pagan practices that were merged into the Roman church. Many Animists would pray to their ancestors for protection and to guide them along the path. They often burned sage or some other sweet grass and "smudged" themselves with the smoke to create a prayer union with the dead. Rome, as a means of bringing pagan Animists into the church, simply merged the concept and changed the ancestors to the saints while keeping the essential pagan practices. This allowed many tribes to easily merge themselves into Rome without much change in their pagan thinking. Rome got followers and the pagans got Rome off their backs. Win-win. Of course...there was no real faith change. It was all just smoke and mirrors. Just another reason why the Reformation was so needed and ordained by God.

 

[MoreCoffee]

praying to the saints is one of those pagan practices that were merged into the Roman church.

Exactly which pagan practise was it from, please give documentation showing pagans praying to saints, that is, holy persons who served Yahweh and Jesus Christ.

 

[MoreCoffee]

One prays ("asks" is how modern English speakers would say this) to the saints so that they will pray for the one asking them to pray for them just like you ask your friend to pray for you, like a recent post from Confessional Lutheran asked us to pray for him. That is the only explanation that there is. It is what "praying to the saints" is. It is asking the saints to pray for you to the Lord our God. Just like it says in the mass when you confess your sins to God and to your brothers and sisters in the mass.

Like this text taken from the introductory rites of the liturgy of the Word in the mass:
I confess to almighty God, and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault, in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done, and in what I have failed to do; and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin, all the angels and saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God.

 

[MennoSota]

Exactly which pagan practise was it from, please give documentation showing pagans praying to saints, that is, holy persons who served Yahweh and Jesus Christ.

Animism is the largest religion in the world, MC. It dwarfs Roman Catholicism by a large margin as well as all other mainstream religions.
I can speak specifically from talking with Ojibwe tribal members and Dakota tribal members who told me how Roman beliefs were easy to blend into their traditional paganism because of the prayer to their ancestors matching with the prayer to the saints. I wouldn't be surprised if there is a similarity regarding aboriginal tribes. I have friends ministering with Wycliffe in Pau Pau New Guinea and they also report how the paganism can easily merge with Roman Catholicism because the tribe doesn't really have to change any of its pagan practices.
You really need to study these things so you see how screwed up your church has become.

 

[RichWh1]

I was at a confirmation today, just wondering because growing up Catholic I was never properly explained to why we should pray to Saints so they in return pray for us. Why not just pray directly to God?

Serious question btw, I just never got an explanation and have never recognized any particular scripture that addresses it.

Actually according to the Scripture, there is one mediator between God and man, Christ Jesus.

Praying to the saints is not biblical. I too was raised Catholic so I understand the question you are asking and it's difficult for someone who has not been there to understand or answer.

“If there is an angel as mediator for him, One out of a thousand, To remind a man what is right for him, Then let him be gracious to him, and say, ‘Deliver him from going down to the pit, I have found a ransom’;
Job 33:23-24

For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.
1 Timothy 2:5-6




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[Albion]

One prays ("asks" is now modern English speakers would say this) to the saints so that they will pray for the one asking them to pray for them just like you ask your friend to pray for you, like a recent post from Confessional Lutheran asked us to pray for him. That is the only explanation that there is.

As I said in my earlier post, the only basis for prayer to the saints is a rationalization--exactly what has been described here. But it is more than evident that praying to the dead is NOT, in fact, "just like you ask your friend to pray for you."

While there is a Bible verse that speaks of asking your neighbor to pray for you, there is nothing about asking a spirit to pray for you. Not EVEN if 1) you had any way of knowing if the spirit could hear the prayer (which you do not know); and even more fundamentally, 2) you knew that the deceased is actually in heaven rather than in some other state in the afterlife.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Animism is the largest religion in the world, MC. It dwarfs Roman Catholicism by a large margin as well as all other mainstream religions.

You just invent this stuff. The earth has 7.7 billion people living on it today (give or take some millions) of which 1.64 billion identify as Catholic. That's a little over 21% of all human beings living today. It is estimated that 3.9% of the world's total population practise animism of one form or another. Your claims are just not true.

I can speak specifically from talking with Ojibwe tribal members and Dakota tribal members who told me how Roman beliefs were easy to blend into their traditional paganism because of the prayer to their ancestors matching with the prayer to the saints.

USA tribal ancestor worship (if they worship ancestors as you appear to indicate) has nothing whatever to do with the prayers of the saints. First, the saints are not regarded as pagan gods. Second the saints are venerated but not adored as is God. Third, the saints are all human beings who serve God and are present in heaven only by his grace while pagan gods are entirely unlike the saints in this respect. There are numerous other differences. Your claim is just superficial flimflam.

I wouldn't be surprised if there is a similarity regarding aboriginal tribes. I have friends ministering with Wycliffe in Pau Pau New Guinea and they also report how the paganism can easily merge with Roman Catholicism because the tribe doesn't really have to change any of its pagan practices.

You're just throwing out unsupported speculation as "evidence" but it is not evidence it is just a flight of fancy.

You really need to study these things so you see how screwed up your church has become.

If what you've offered is the fruit of your study and you commend it to me then I respectfully decline to accept it; it is empty noise without any substance.

 

[Arsenios]

Well, old Simon the Magician asked a Saint to pray for him in Acts:

Act 8:24
Then answered Simon, and said,
Pray ye to the Lord for me,


And here we have a Saint praying for his children:

2Co 13:7
Now I pray to God that ye do no evil;

And again:

Php 1:9
And this I pray,
that your love may abound yet more and more
in knowledge and in all judgment;

There are endless examples...
And notice that Paul does not tell them:
"Look - You have ONE Intermediary between you and the Father...
That Intermediary is Jesus Christ...
So for that reason, I will not pray for you!
Get over it!!!"

We are to pray for one another...
And believers do not die,
though they pass from this life...

Joh 11:26
And whosoever liveth
and believeth in Me
shall never die.
Believest thou this?

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

You just invent this stuff. The earth has 7.7 billion people living on it today (give or take some millions) of which 1.64 billion identify as Catholic. That's a little over 21% of all human beings living today. It is estimated that 3.9% of the world's total population practise animism of one form or another. Your claims are just not true.


USA tribal ancestor worship (if they worship ancestors as you appear to indicate) has nothing whatever to do with the prayers of the saints. First, the saints are not regarded as pagan gods. Second the saints are venerated but not adored as is God. Third, the saints are all human beings who serve God and are present in heaven only by his grace while pagan gods are entirely unlike the saints in this respect. There are numerous other differences. Your claim is just superficial flimflam.


You're just throwing out unsupported speculation as "evidence" but it is not evidence it is just a flight of fancy.



If what you've offered is the fruit of your study and you commend it to me then I respectfully decline to accept it; it is empty noise without any substance.

MC, many of the so-called Roman Catholics are also Animists. Being RC and being Animist is easy. Both promote non-biblical worship and prayers to the dead to invoke special blessing.
I have met and chatted with people who easily mix the two. Since 300 CE we see Rome mixing paganism into Christianity. It's so inbred with you that you refuse to even recognize it.

 

[Josiah]

One prays ("asks" is how modern English speakers would say this) to the saints so that they will pray for the one asking them to pray for them just like you ask your friend to pray for you, like a recent post from Confessional Lutheran asked us to pray for him. That is the only explanation that there is. It is what "praying to the saints" is. It is asking the saints to pray for you to the Lord our God. Just like it says in the mass when you confess your sins to God and to your brothers and sisters in the mass.

Like this text taken from the introductory rites of the liturgy of the Word in the mass:
I confess to almighty God, and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault, in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done, and in what I have failed to do; and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin, all the angels and saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God.

1. Theoretically, asking those already in heaven to pray FOR us doesn't bother me.....

2. There's ZERO indication that those in heaven hear our prayer requests so the whole issue of submitting our requests to them may well be entirely in vain.... wasted effort perhaps better spent elsewhere.

3. As a Catholic, you KNOW that LOTS of Catholics do NOT ask the saints to pray FOR them, they pray TO them (especially Mary), expecting the saint to be the reason diving help is coming. I heard LOTS of prayers - even by the pastor -directed to MARY with every indication MARY would answer it.... nothing about "please pass this on to Jesus." Catholics may CLAIM they are doing nothing more than asking some person in heaven to pass on the request but what they DO is often very different than that.

4. Here's what I was taught on this: Jesus, keeping the 4th Commandment (because He is sinless) does what His Mommy tells Him. Proof: The Miracle of Cana. So, if YOU pray to Jesus well He is not mandated to do anything about it - He may and He may not. But if MARY asks Him, He's gotta do it. So ask Mary. That's what we were told. And that was often the point of that miracle. I have an "issue" with that.




.

 

[Albion]

3. As a Catholic, you KNOW that LOTS of Catholics do NOT ask the saints to pray FOR them, they pray TO them (especially Mary), expecting the saint to be the reason diving help is coming. I heard LOTS of prayers - even by the pastor -directed to MARY with every indication MARY would answer it.... nothing about "please pass this on to Jesus." Catholics may CLAIM they are doing nothing more than asking some person in heaven to pass on the request but what they DO is often very different than that.

4. Here's what I was taught on this: Jesus, keeping the 4th Commandment (because He is sinless) does what His Mommy tells Him. Proof: The Miracle of Cana. So, if YOU pray to Jesus well He is not mandated to do anything about it - He may and He may not. But if MARY asks Him, He's gotta do it. So ask Mary. That's what we were told. And that was often the point of that miracle. I have an "issue" with that.

That's all very true; and "shame on me" for omitting any mention of these in my earlier post.

 

[RichWh1]

Well, old Simon the Magician asked a Saint to pray for him in Acts:

Act 8:24
Then answered Simon, and said,
Pray ye to the Lord for me,


And here we have a Saint praying for his children:

2Co 13:7
Now I pray to God that ye do no evil;

And again:

Php 1:9
And this I pray,
that your love may abound yet more and more
in knowledge and in all judgment;

There are endless examples...
And notice that Paul does not tell them:
"Look - You have ONE Intermediary between you and the Father...
That Intermediary is Jesus Christ...
So for that reason, I will not pray for you!
Get over it!!!"

We are to pray for one another...
And believers do not die,
though they pass from this life...

Joh 11:26
And whosoever liveth
and believeth in Me
shall never die.
Believest thou this?

Arsenios

You're mixing the living saints with the dead ones!!
Paul never said ask DEAD people to pray for you!!


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[atpollard]

Day late and dollar short ... deleted.

 

[Arsenios]

There's ZERO indication that those in heaven hear our prayer requests
so the whole issue of submitting our requests to them may well be entirely in vain....
wasted effort perhaps better spent elsewhere.

When I first came into the Orthodox Faith as an enquirer, I was told I could pick a Saint - any icon that appealed to me... And to ask his or her help in anything that was bothering me... So I prayed to St John of Shanghai and San Francisco for helping my daughter in that city... Confessing my wretched negligence in her upbringing... An orphan son of St. John's from Shanghai ended up moving into the house next door to my daughter's house - Like most orphans, he had married a universal mother, who took over my daughter's and everyone else's supportive needs in the neighborhood...

So like most prayers, if you pray and pay attention, you will see the answer made manifest...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

You're mixing the living saints with the dead ones!!
Paul never said ask DEAD people to pray for you!!

John 11:26
And whosoever liveth
and believeth in Me
shall never die.
Believest thou this?

Believes thou this?

Saints never die...

The middle partition is lifted...


Arsenios

 

[atpollard]

When I first came into the Orthodox Faith as an enquirer, I was told I could pick a Saint - any icon that appealed to me... And to ask his or her help in anything that was bothering me... So I prayed to St John of Shanghai and San Francisco for helping my daughter in that city... Confessing my wretched negligence in her upbringing... An orphan son of St. John's from Shanghai ended up moving into the house next door to my daughter's house - Like most orphans, he had married a universal mother, who took over my daughter's and everyone else's supportive needs in the neighborhood...

So like most prayers, if you pray and pay attention, you will see the answer made manifest...

Arsenio
s

I like the story, but just for my personal curiosity (your answer is non-binding opinion) ...
Do you think God heard and answered your prayer or do you think St John of Shanghai and San Francisco answered your prayer?

 

[Arsenios]

I like the story, but just for my personal curiosity (your answer is non-binding opinion) ...
Do you think God heard and answered your prayer or do you think St John of Shanghai and San Francisco answered your prayer?

Yes...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I like the story, but just for my personal curiosity (your answer is non-binding opinion) ...
Do you think God heard and answered your prayer or do you think St John of Shanghai and San Francisco answered your prayer?

The Orthodox do not regard reposed Saints as fleshy discards...
They are living and in union with God...
They are not dead -
They hear and intercede in our behalf...
"The prayer of a righteous one availeth much", remember?
Both in this life, and in the next...

How can we be known by our love for one another if we simply disregard each other in our presumed self-importance in thinking that only God Himself is good enough for our prayers, and never pray for one another... But if we do, and the Bible commands intercessory prayer for one another, what makes anyone think that once someone perfected in Christ is dead? Not even the OT Saints were dead... Our God is the God of the Living, and the Holy Ones of God are the living, and not the dead... Jacob and Moses and Elijah are not dead... Nor is St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco...


Arsenios