PERFECT LOVE

[YourTruthGod]

[Eph 2:3-5 NASB] 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Get real.
Does someone “living in the lusts of the flesh” and “children of wrath” and “dead in transgressions” describe a BELIEVER or UNBELIEVER?
It describes an “unbeliever”. So it was a dead “unbeliever” that God “made alive” (transforming him into a believer).

Paul was speaking about how there were Jews who did sins like the Gentiles. The Gentiles were dead in their SINS AND in the UN circumcision of their flesh.


Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,


That is about the Gentiles NOT doing the purification works and atoning for their sins.

 

[YourTruthGod]

God regenerates the spiritually dead, I myself WAS an atheist (unbeliever) but GOD shed his light on me and he transformed me!

The saved are regenerated with the Holy Spirit AFTER they believe and repent.

Before I laughed at the thought of repentance, if not for God I would still laugh at it, but God selflessly drew me to his Word and my eyes became open, I was still on the fence (or so I thought) but then one day it all came together as it does for all of his people
When he calls, his sheep hear and follow, they are ultimately and unarguably His Elect!

God chooses those who believe and repent of their sins.

 

[YourTruthGod]

Well I am a gentile and so are you
I abide comfortably with my state laws which include "no stealing, lying, killing, etc..." but Salvation in Christ includes more than just following set rules, I was just as good as helping the poor when I was an atheist, so we agree that our own will of works is never pleasing to the Lord but HIS Will, that is.. Charity and denial of self which are unmeasured therefore there is nothing to brag about.

The works we have to do to get saved and stay saved are to humble ourselves, to become as little children, to repent of our sins, and to call on him to help.
It is a work, but light, easy and not burdensome.

 

[Pedrito]

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In Post #164, the point was made that we have observed Scripture being bypassed (i.e. ignored, given false meaning, etc.). That bypassing is undertaken to bolster particular beliefs that are both important to individuals, and important to the churches they may happen to give their loyalty to.

A pertinent example is the quoting of Ephesians 2:1-10, to oppose the expressed thought that God does not save unbelievers. That passage was offered in Posts #159 and #161.

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But within that passage is a verse that is much employed by, and universally given a false interpretation by, one section of the “Christian Communion”. That verse is Ephesians 2:8. However, when it is translated (or interpreted) to faithfully maintain the original Greek meaning, the false interpretation is shown up for exactly what it is.

As has been pointed out before, possibly more than once, the grammar of the original Greek, dictates that the that not of yourselves refers to God’s action of saving, and not to the word “faith”.

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The purpose of Ephesians 2:8 is to contrast the personal faith of believers, faith that results in the application of God’s active grace, with personal works that can never do so. (Ephesians 2:9)

So, overall, when Ephesians 2:1-10 is quoted as an attempt to support the idea that only individuals already preselected by God can be saved, it proves counter-productive.

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It is true that the use of that passage to trick people who are uninformed about the matter, works a treat. That is why its use in that vein continues.

But as more formerly tricked people become aware of that manipulation, the more will conclude that a certain teaching is false. Their individual response to that awareness however, may well depend on their personal priorities.

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[Arsenios]

The works we have to do to get saved and stay saved are
to humble ourselves,
to become as little children,
to repent of our sins, and
to call on Him to help.
It is a work,
but light, easy and
not burdensome.

An elegant reply!


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Perhaps now we might revisit the OP -

We are commanded by Christ to Love our Enemies...
And we find ourselves only really loving friends and family...
Who among us can love the psychopath that is killing our children?
Who can love the ISIS team burning people alive?

And I seriously doubt that loving such as these is having loving feelings towards them.

Yet we do not love them as we love our spouse and children...

So we fall short of the mark...

What then can we DO about our defect?

How can we perfect the Love of God in us?


Arsenios

 

[atpollard]

Paul was speaking about how there were Jews who did sins like the Gentiles. The Gentiles were dead in their SINS AND in the UN circumcision of their flesh.


Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,


That is about the Gentiles NOT doing the purification works and atoning for their sins.

I simply and emphatically disagree. When Paul says “we” in Ephesians 2 and elsewhere, the Apostle to the Gentiles is speaking to the saints ... all of the saints (there is no Jew or Greek) ... and he is not speaking only to Jewish Christians. You are excluding so much of the Bible as “not applying to you”. What a pity.

 

[YourTruthGod]

Perhaps now we might revisit the OP -

We are commanded by Christ to Love our Enemies...
And we find ourselves only really loving friends and family...
Who among us can love the psychopath that is killing our children?
Who can love the ISIS team burning people alive?

And I seriously doubt that loving such as these is having loving feelings towards them.

Yet we do not love them as we love our spouse and children...

So we fall short of the mark...

What then can we DO about our defect?

How can we perfect the Love of God in us?


Arsenios

Love is a feeling, and I make all decisions through that love, through that Spirit, which is God.

 

[Andrew]

The works we have to do to get saved and stay saved are to humble ourselves, to become as little children, to repent of our sins, and to call on him to help.
It is a work, but light, easy and not burdensome.

I agree that no repentance means no salvation

 

[YourTruthGod]

I agree that no repentance means no salvation

I am so glad to have agreement with someone on this. Can you believe it that some people say to repent is not to repent of sins but only to 'change our mind about God'?

So to clarify, you do believe that we have to repent of sins, right?

 

[atpollard]

Perhaps now we might revisit the OP -

We are commanded by Christ to Love our Enemies...
And we find ourselves only really loving friends and family...
Who among us can love the psychopath that is killing our children?
Who can love the ISIS team burning people alive?

And I seriously doubt that loving such as these is having loving feelings towards them.

Yet we do not love them as we love our spouse and children...

So we fall short of the mark...

What then can we DO about our defect?

How can we perfect the Love of God in us?


Arsenios

If “love” means doing nothing ... just “turn the other cheek” and “bless” ... when confronted with real evil, then I cannot love like God loves. I am incapable of feeling ‘joy’ for the man who molests children and simply offering him my child as well (in the spirit of giving your shirt to the man who demands your coat).

I must simply fall upon the mercy of God to understand and forgive, but I will probably never choose to do nothing in opposition to injustice ... especially injustice perpetrated against the weak. If that makes me a ‘bad Christian’, then so be it; I am guilty of far worse.

 

[Arsenios]

If “love” means doing nothing ... just “turn the other cheek” and “bless” ... when confronted with real evil, then I cannot love like God loves. I am incapable of feeling ‘joy’ for the man who molests children and simply offering him my child as well (in the spirit of giving your shirt to the man who demands your coat).

I must simply fall upon the mercy of God to understand and forgive, but I will probably never choose to do nothing in opposition to injustice ... especially injustice perpetrated against the weak. If that makes me a ‘bad Christian’, then so be it; I am guilty of far worse.

Personally, I do not think that enabling a person to do more evils is a loving thing to do...


Arsenios

 

[Andrew]

I am so glad to have agreement with someone on this. Can you believe it that some people say to repent is not to repent of sins but only to 'change our mind about God'?

So to clarify, you do believe that we have to repent of sins, right?

'Repent' from my understanding means to rethink, to look inward and most importantly to realize that you are a sinner.
I haven't seen any one here openly object to the significants and importance of repentance, I am sure we all agree that God doesn't repent for us. One thing I do know is that the light that goes off in your head that says "oh my, I need to change my ways for the glory of God" is not something we would have ever thunk if it weren't for God's presence in that time in our lives. You are a believer for even thinking that, I say with confidence that as an atheist I would have laughed at this idea all the way to the grave, it was Gods sudden presence and intervention in my life that caused me to rethink (repent) of my actions, without him I would have died in my sins.
I hope that makes sense as it's part of my personal testimony as a former atheist

again yes, we have to repent of our sins no doubt, no one set on the path of destruction is going to see the kingdom unless they submit to the will of God by realizing that they have offended thee and acknowledge the presence of the Lord

 

[Arsenios]

I agree that no repentance means no salvation

Then there is hope!

Do you agree that repentance is the MEANS that God seeks from us in order that He save us?


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Then there is hope!

Do you agree that repentance is the MEANS that God seeks from us in order that He save us?


Arsenios

No.
No repentance=no salvation means that if you are unrepentant...God never made you alive with Christ. Repentance is what the one whom God makes alive will do. Dead men don't repent.

 

[Arsenios]

'Repent' from my understanding means to rethink, to look inward and most importantly to realize that you are a sinner.
... to rethink (repent) of my actions...

We repent from sins, do we not?
To repent from a sin means to never commit that sin again...
The process of repenting from a sin is a struggle to overcome the sin...
There are a lot of skirmishes and engagements and battles...
And Christian repentance is hidden warfare...
Hidden because we are purifying the heart...
Repentance is the purification of the heart...
Not just the outward DOING of the sin -
For this is given and enforcable by the Law...
But repenting of the inward desiring to do the sin...
And once purified, maintaining vigilance against that sin...
As one tackles the next sin...
Progressing from Glory to Glory...
All hidden within the arena of this warfare,
The heart of contest within one's soul and body...

For the Christian, it is not enough to accept Christ on faith and not engage the battle against one's sins...
Because without engaging that battle, one does NOT accept Christ on faith...
And for one reborn into Christ, that battle can be and will be won...
IF one is willing to engage it with the weapons provided...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

No.
No repentance=no salvation means that if you are unrepentant...God never made you alive with Christ.

Do you mean by being baptized into Christ?
As was Saul/Paul by Ananias?
And Queen Candace's Ethiopian Eunuch by Philip?
And the Cornelius Party by Peter?

Or do you mean by a private spiritual event in one's life?

Repentance is what the one whom God makes alive will do.
Dead men don't repent.

Does this mean you are a very repentant person?

I tend to be lazy, myself...


Arsenios

 

[Andrew]

Then there is hope!

Do you agree that repentance is the MEANS that God seeks from us in order that He save us?


Arsenios

I believe that God calls for repentance, his sheep hear the call, repent and continue to follow in the Lord.
As a former atheist I heard about repentance and honestly paid no mind, so upon reading Gods word to repent I did not nor did I care to hear any more orders, God had to call on me and I had to hear, nothing else would have possibly motivated me to even consider repentance

 

[Andrew]

No.
No repentance=no salvation means that if you are unrepentant...God never made you alive with Christ. Repentance is what the one whom God makes alive will do. Dead men don't repent.

Very very true. At Arsenios, I hope you can put two and two together and see how this makes perfect sense, at least for me and my experience. Former Atheist should be the first to understand this simple and biblical concept, I believe you do however

 

[MennoSota]

Do you mean by being baptized into Christ?
As was Saul/Paul by Ananias?
And Queen Candace's Ethiopian Eunuch by Philip?
And the Cornelius Party by Peter?

Or do you mean by a private spiritual event in one's life?



Does this mean you are a very repentant person?

I tend to be lazy, myself...


Arsenios

I mean what God tells us.
Ephesians 2:4-9
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Notice...no water baptism required.