PERFECT LOVE

[MennoSota]

There is no such thing what you preach. Show one scripture that says God saves unbelievers.

Ephesians 2:1-10 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Does God make believers alive or does God make those who are dead in their trespasses and sins alive with Christ? What does God tell us?

 

[MennoSota]

Ephesians 2:1-10

Thanks for confirming.

 

[YourTruthGod]

BUY A SWORD
[Luk 22:36 NASB] 36 And He said to them, "But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one.

Jesus didn't tell everyone to do that for salvation.
Jesus told that to the disciples who would be traveling ministers with him as they laid the foundation.

SELF MUTILATION
[Mat 18:8-9 NASB] 8 "If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. 9 "If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.

Stop sinning so you don't have to do that!

HOMELESS
[Luk 18:22 NASB] 22 When Jesus heard [this,] He said to him, "One thing you still lack; sell all that you possess and distribute it to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

Again, that was about traveling ministers while Jesus had his earthly ministry and was laying the foundation. The foundation has been laid a long time ago.

WITHOUT FAMILY
[Luk 14:26 NASB] 26 "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.

Try it and you will be given understanding.
It is about putting no one before God.

A preacher that understands Theology and Greek and historic context might not be a completely bad thing.

That is not how to get saved and have understanding. Not according to the Bible.

 

[Pedrito]

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Post #141, commenting on the presentation of Scripture statements in Post #140 that demonstrated the role and importance of repentance:

Literally one of the worst chop jobs of scripture I have ever read. Congratulations on butchering the meaning of scripture to fit your biased preconceptions. It is masterful like that of so many intra-biblical cults.

Based on the way we have seen relevant Scripture bypassed by the author of Post #141 – bypassed in an effort to bolster a particular doctrine that appears central to his belief system – could that outburst be in fact a case of “the pot calling the kettle black”? Interestingly enough, based on the Scriptures presented by the kettle in this case, the kettle looks comparatively clean to me.

==============================================================================================

By the way, I am in no way proposing that the author of Post #141 is Robinson Crusoe with respect to his beliefs. Nor am I proposing that is he alone in the avoidance and diminishing of Scripture that threatens those beliefs.

But I do suggest that Post #141 is a case of:
- The Scripture statements in Post #140 are threatening, but cannot be logically and honestly shown to be inappropriate;
- Therefore, the author of that Post #140 must be made the subject of disrepute or ridicule, to draw attention away from the importance of those statements.

(I seem to remember questionable tactics being used in the past – used by more than one person, in more than one thread. I may have even commented on it, come to think of it.)

When all else fails...

==============================================================================================

 

[Andrew]

Jesus didn't tell everyone to do that for salvation.
Jesus told that to the disciples who would be traveling ministers with him as they laid the foundation.


Stop sinning so you don't have to do that!

Again, that was about traveling ministers while Jesus had his earthly ministry and was laying the foundation. The foundation has been laid a long time ago.

Try it and you will be given understanding.
It is about putting no one before God.



That is not how to get saved and have understanding. Not according to the Bible.

Atpollard is making a point, he is not promoting that we should cut off our hands and burn them but without a sense of theology we could easily sprout up churches that take scripture out of context.
For example we are told we would be baptised by fire, should we start a church where we toss people into fire?
Sadly some churches believe that drinking poison is something we should all do, that's border line Jonestown and yet it's still practiced.

 

[YourTruthGod]

Ephesians 2:1-10

Dead in trespasses means Jesus didn't make them get circumcised in the flesh before he would save them.

God had the purification works of the law to atone for their souls, and the Gentiles didn't do it.

 

[YourTruthGod]

Ephesians 2:1-10 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Does God make believers alive or does God make those who are dead in their trespasses and sins alive with Christ? What does God tell us?

God does NOT save unbelievers; and, no scripture you quoted says He does.

 

[YourTruthGod]

Atpollard is making a point, he is not promoting that we should cut off our hands and burn them but without a sense of theology we could easily sprout up churches that take scripture out of context.
For example we are told we would be baptised by fire, should we start a church where we toss people into fire?
Sadly some churches believe that drinking poison is something we should all do, that's border line Jonestown and yet it's still practiced.

He was trying to go against me for saying we have to obey Jesus to get saved.

He doesn't have understanding of those scriptures and I thought he would be interested in hearing what I had to say about them.

 

[RichWh1]

God does NOT save unbelievers; and, no scripture you quoted says He does.

Wrong!! All believers WERE at one time UNbelievers! If God didn't save unbelievers no one would get saved!!
Your logic and theology are flawed



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Andrew]

He was trying to go against me for saying we have to obey Jesus to get saved.

He doesn't have understanding of those scriptures and I thought he would be interested in hearing what I had to say about them.

You asked what it would be like if we all took the bible literally on our own, without understanding it can be dangerous, Muslims do this and it created ISIS.
Some could say, pluck out your eyes and cut off your hands and plunge yourself into fire and fight against your family and pick up snakes and drink poison... :/

 

[MennoSota]

God does NOT save unbelievers; and, no scripture you quoted says He does.

You are shoving your head in the sand. Both atpollard and I pointed you to the same passage at the same time. At this point you are being deliberately obtuse. I'm done.

 

[YourTruthGod]

You are shoving your head in the sand. Both atpollard and I pointed you to the same passage at the same time. At this point you are being deliberately obtuse. I'm done.

If you could show me one scripture that says God says He saves unbelievers, I would believe. You can't make a scripture say something it does not.

 

[MennoSota]

John 12:37-40 Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him, so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: “Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said, “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

 

[atpollard]

Dead in trespasses means Jesus didn't make them get circumcised in the flesh before he would save them.

God had the purification works of the law to atone for their souls, and the Gentiles didn't do it.

[Eph 2:3-5 NASB] 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Get real.
Does someone “living in the lusts of the flesh” and “children of wrath” and “dead in transgressions” describe a BELIEVER or UNBELIEVER?
It describes an “unbeliever”. So it was a dead “unbeliever” that God “made alive” (transforming him into a believer).

 

[Andrew]

If you could show me one scripture that says God says He saves unbelievers, I would believe. You can't make a scripture say something it does not.

God regenerates the spiritually dead, I myself WAS an atheist (unbeliever) but GOD shed his light on me and he transformed me!
Before I laughed at the thought of repentance, if not for God I would still laugh at it, but God selflessly drew me to his Word and my eyes became open, I was still on the fence (or so I thought) but then one day it all came together as it does for all of his people
When he calls, his sheep hear and follow, they are ultimately and unarguably His Elect!

 

[Arsenios]

We are not love. God is love. God sacrificed himself for those whom He chooses to save. The blood was shed for those who would believe, not for those who would not believe.
Arsenios, you tend to neglect the whole passage...
John 12:28-40
Father, glorify your name.” Then a voice came from heaven: “I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again.” The crowd that stood there and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, “An angel has spoken to him.” Jesus answered, “This voice has come for your sake, not mine. Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die. So the crowd answered him, “We have heard from the Law that the Christ remains forever. How can you say that the Son of Man must be lifted up? Who is this Son of Man?” So Jesus said to them, “The light is among you for a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you. The one who walks in the darkness does not know where he is going. While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.” When Jesus had said these things, he departed and hid himself from them.
Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him,
so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: “Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”
Therefore they could not believe.
For again Isaiah said, “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

Did Christ die for unsaved sinners or not?

Are we to follow Christ or not?


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Did Christ die for unsaved sinners or not?

Are we to follow Christ or not?


Arsenios

Christ died for the elect.
Ephesians 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
Only the elect can follow
Christ because God makes them alive with Christ.

 

[Arsenios]

God regenerates the spiritually dead, I myself WAS an atheist (unbeliever) but GOD shed his light on me and he transformed me!
Before I laughed at the thought of repentance, if not for God I would still laugh at it, but God selflessly drew me to his Word and my eyes became open, I was still on the fence (or so I thought) but then one day it all came together as it does for all of his people
When he calls, his sheep hear and follow, they are ultimately and unarguably His Elect!

We come from disturbingly similar origins in atheism, Andrew...

I will say this: It is easy to mistake God's Call to repentance as Salvation itself...

For so Holy is this Call, and so suffused with the Love of God...

And in it we can light up in the saturation of the Holy Spirit...

Indeed in the OT, Salvation WAS this saturation in/by the Holy Spirit...

Salvation in Christ, however, is much more...


Arsenios

 

[Andrew]

We come from disturbingly similar origins in atheism, Andrew...

I will say this: It is easy to mistake God's Call to repentance as Salvation itself...

For so Holy is this Call, and so suffused with the Love of God...

And in it we can light up in the saturation of the Holy Spirit...

Indeed in the OT, Salvation WAS this saturation in/by the Holy Spirit...

Salvation in Christ, however, is much more...


Arsenios

Well I am a gentile and so are you
I abide comfortably with my state laws which include "no stealing, lying, killing, etc..." but Salvation in Christ includes more than just following set rules, I was just as good as helping the poor when I was an atheist, so we agree that our own will of works is never pleasing to the Lord but HIS Will, that is.. Charity and denial of self which are unmeasured therefore there is nothing to brag about.

 

[YourTruthGod]

John 12:37-40 Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him, so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: “Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said, “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

They didn't believe and he didn't make them believe.

That scripture is about when Jesus came, he came to make a new covenant based on faith and not based on the purification works of the law; so God cut off all the Jews who did not already have faith in Him, and hardened them so they could not hear Jesus and be saved.

Jesus said that when he is crucified, then all could be saved, even the cut off and hardened Jews.