Sinless Mary

[Arsenios]

You create nothing, Arsenios.

I totally agree...

It is Christ Who creates...

In His Body, the Church...


Arsenios

 

[Josiah]

Protestants invented "the invisible church" as a substitute for having one visible church because their religion is fractured into so many disagreeing sects that they cannot maintain any notion of a single visible church. Having a phantom "invisible church" is the only way that Protestant sects can pretend to being one church.

Actually, the RC Denomination embraced the theology of the church as the corpus of believers before any Protestants did. And OFFICIALLY, the teaching still exists in the RC denomination. It's just been totally buried by the insistence of the RCC itself that it itself is the church in the power, lording sense.


The issue for the RCC (and LDS and a few "cults") is that they have ANOTHER concept of the church that completely overwhelms the first: The RCC simply looks at it itself in the mirror and dogmatially insists: THAT'S the church (in its fullness, the church with authority and unmitigated power). The VISIBLE Church (read: denomination, always the one claiming such) is simply seen as more important and relevant than the INVISIBLE one because it's not about family or faith or love or ministry or the Body of Christ in these denominations, it's about POWER, P.O.W.E.R., the power that self insists that self has, the authority, rule, lording it over other Christians as the Gentiles do, being unaccountabile. If one denomination "trumps" all Christians (individually AND collectively) then the "church" has to be a denomination (a 'VISIBLE' legal/political/geographical institution) so that it is identifible: WHAT denomination is all power, lord over all, unaccountable, when IT alone speaks ergo God speaks, when IT speaks God must obey and agree. If POWER is the whole enchilada, there has to be one who has it and the rest who don't.



And of course, the RCC is as fractured in Christianity as much as any other denomination; after all the RCC is in unity with absolutely NONE, not one, it only has unity with the ONE it itself alone sees in the mirror as it looks at itself. Now, are their other denominations that also have unity with none but self exclusively? Yes, some are as bad as the RC denomination in this regard, but none are worse (it simply is IMPOSSIBLE to be worse than the RCC is in this way).




.

 

[MennoSota]

I totally agree...

It is Christ Who creates...

In His Body, the Church...


Arsenios

...Which is not EOC...

 

[Arsenios]

...Which is not EOC...

Because the Bible tells you so, yes?



A.

 

[MennoSota]

Because the Bible tells you so, yes?



A.

Indeed...the EOC is never mentioned in the Bible. Now...stop being so foolish with your claims.

 

[Arsenios]

Indeed...the EOC is never mentioned in the Bible. Now...stop being so foolish with your claims.

It says so right there in the Bible - The EOC is NOT the Body of Christ - Right?


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

It says so right there in the Bible - The EOC is NOT the Body of Christ - Right?


Arsenios

Correct. The EOC is not the body of Christ. However, some within the body may visit an EOC building on occasion.

 

[Andrew]

If I may concerning the invisible church.. The believers make up the spiritual body/church, each is the temple of God, it has nothing to do with the flesh or walls or anything visible, where 2 or more are gathered in Jesus name, not everyone gathers at one physical temple somewhere in Rome ... It is the stepping out of the flesh and into the Spirit that makes us Holy IMO
Can we physically see every member of the Church?

 

[Arsenios]

If I may concerning the invisible church.. The believers make up the spiritual body/church, each is the temple of God, it has nothing to do with the flesh or walls or anything visible, where 2 or more are gathered in Jesus name, not everyone gathers at one physical temple somewhere in Rome ... It is the stepping out of the flesh and into the Spirit that makes us Holy IMO
Can we physically see every member of the Church?

Great question...

Paul wrote to the Church at Corinth...
Was he writing to flesh and blood?
Could he see all of them?

otoh - He was judging Churches and members from a distance as if he were there - No mean Spiritual engagement...

So that members of the Church while in the body can, sometimes, go elsewhere than where their body abides...

And we also have those who have reposed, where Paul writes: "To die is gain..."

They are members of the Body of Christ now as souls without bodies... Paul is one of these right now, yes?

One of the "Great Cloud of Witnesses" Paul records in Hebrews, yes?

Great question...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Correct. The EOC is not the body of Christ. However, some within the body may visit an EOC building on occasion.

Thanks, Menno...


A.

 

[Arsenios]

No one suggests that the church on Earth is made up of nothing but "the saved", no one except some evangelicals.

Neither is the Church some kind of "Court of Law"...

It IS indeed a Hospital for the Sin-Sick Afflicted seeking healing and recovery from wounds...

We ALL need the Good Samaritan...

We all need to GO upon our way and sin no more...

It is why we are repenting...

It is why we seek Baptism...

It is why we are denying our self...

It is why we take up our cross...

And follow Christ Who is our God...

That Christ Join Himself to us...

But IF we commit Adultery by turning from Christ...

And return to the vomit of our sins...

God will grant us our divorce from Him...

May He keep us from that...

Keep on asking, that ye may receive...

That He keep us from that...


Arsenios

 

[Albion]

I long for a normal paragraph one of these days instead of some stream of consciousness or blank verse poetry.

 

[Josiah]

Nothing has been presented to substantiate that it is a dogma (a matter of highest importance and certainty possible) that Mary uniquely was conceived without original sin.


Just 42 pages of dodging.




.

 

[Andrew]

Nothing has been presented to substantiate that it is a dogma (a matter of highest importance and certainty possible) that Mary uniquely was conceived without original sin.


Just 42 pages of dodging.




.

I second that, Mary calls Christ her Savior, she had to repent of her sins just like everyone else who receive Salvation.
We could also go around saying that John the Baptist was sinless because the bible never mentions anything other than he wanted Christ to baptise him, we all know that Christ was baptised by John, so was John sinless? Just like Mary had a very important role so did John in baptizing Christ (a custom those day for every Jew who wished to become Rabbi or priest).
All fall short of the glory of God, that is biblical

 

[MennoSota]

Neither is the Church some kind of "Court of Law"...

It IS indeed a Hospital for the Sin-Sick Afflicted seeking healing and recovery from wounds...

We ALL need the Good Samaritan...

We all need to GO upon our way and sin no more...

It is why we are repenting...

It is why we seek Baptism...

It is why we are denying our self...

It is why we take up our cross...

And follow Christ Who is our God...

That Christ Join Himself to us...

But IF we commit Adultery by turning from Christ...

And return to the vomit of our sins...

God will grant us our divorce from Him...

May He keep us from that...

Keep on asking, that ye may receive...

That He keep us from that...


Arsenios

Sounds like you are trying to merit your salvation and justify your relationship with God by your own works

John 6:37-40
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

 

[Albion]

I second that, Mary calls Christ her Savior, she had to repent of her sins just like everyone else who receive Salvation.

The belief is based entirely upon a rationalization that derives from what the angel said to Mary at the Annunciation. But if you look at all the Bible translations available in your nearest bookstore, not a one of them translates his message as telling her that she either is sinless or ever was. The message was that she had found favor with God (for reasons not disclosed) and so she was to give birth to the Savior.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I second that, Mary calls Christ her Savior, she had to repent of her sins just like everyone else who receive Salvation.

Enoch, who pleased God, needed a saviour and Job who was perfect, according to Jehovah, needed a saviour. I am not so sure that your line of reasoning is sound.

 

[Andrew]

Enoch, who pleased God, needed a saviour and Job who was perfect, according to Jehovah, needed a saviour. I am not so sure that your line of reasoning is sound.

So why not throw Enoch and Job into the mix of sinless veneration?
One was raptured into Heaven in the OT, that's a pretty big deal

 

[MoreCoffee]

So why not throw Enoch and Job into the mix of sinless veneration?
One was raptured into Heaven in the OT, that's a pretty big deal

Yes, it is a big deal and Enoch is venerated.

 

[Andrew]

Yes, it is a big deal and Enoch is venerated.

I did not know that.