Sinless Mary

[Albion]

That seems right, Arsenios. What more could or should be discussed about sin? That would be like a discussion of all the ins and outs of "nothing" or "absence."

 

[Josiah]

There's NOTHING in Scripture, in Apostolic Tradition, in the Ecumenical Councils that REMOTELY states that it is a matter of highest importance and certainty that Mary was uniquely conceived without original sin.

It is the dogma of one, singular, individual denomination (and that only recently).

And it's just made up.

 

[Arsenios]

That seems right, Arsenios.
What more could or should be discussed about sin?
That would be like a discussion of all the ins and outs of "nothing" or "absence."

The EOC is fairly preoccupied with sin...

Sins of knowledge and of ignorance...
Sins of commission and of omission...
Sins in thoughts, and in words, and in deeds...

It is hard to repent of something that is not recognized as needing repenting from...
We focus on repentance instead of God's Glory...
Not because we ignore at all the Glory of God...
But because we know our iniquity...
And our sin is ever before us...

And some things are sins for some, but not for others...
And not now for some, but later would be sins...
And there are some things that need be turned away from besides sins...
Yet not all sins are sins at all times...

I mean, if you are going to take purification of the heart seriously...
And if you want Salvation you want to take it seriously...
Then one must become an expert in one's own sins...
For it is only to those overcoming sins that God extends His Grace...

And there are sins of all manner of evils...

The rich young man departed from Christ in sorrow...
For Christ told him to depart from riches...
And then only to follow Christ...

The Way of Christ is the Way of overcoming sins...

To blow off looking at sin all that closely is to blow off the Way of Christ...

Blessed are the Pure of Heart, for they shall see God...

Without vigilance against sin, how can we keep pure our heart?

And without a purified heart, how can we see God?

You do not have anything you can DO about the Glory of God...

But there is a whole world full of needed deeds to do about your own sins...

And should you ever manage to pry that big fat log out of your own eye...

You may someday even be useful to help another with her sin...

And there are different treatments for different kinds of sin...

I mean, I was shocked at your question above, I gotta say!


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

The EOC is fairly preoccupied with sin...

Sins of knowledge and of ignorance...
Sins of commission and of omission...
Sins in thoughts, and in words, and in deeds...

It is hard to repent of something that is not recognized as needing repenting from...
We focus on repentance instead of God's Glory...
Not because we ignore at all the Glory of God...
But because we know our iniquity...
And our sin is ever before us...

And some things are sins for some, but not for others...
And not now for some, but later would be sins...
And there are some things that need be turned away from besides sins...
Yet not all sins are sins at all times...

I mean, if you are going to take purification of the heart seriously...
And if you want Salvation you want to take it seriously...
Then one must become an expert in one's own sins...
For it is only to those overcoming sins that God extends His Grace...

And there are sins of all manner of evils...

The rich young man departed from Christ in sorrow...
For Christ told him to depart from riches...
And then only to follow Christ...

The Way of Christ is the Way of overcoming sins...

To blow off looking at sin all that closely is to blow off the Way of Christ...

Blessed are the Pure of Heart, for they shall see God...

Without vigilance against sin, how can we keep pure our heart?

And without a purified heart, how can we see God?

You do not have anything you can DO about the Glory of God...

But there is a whole world full of needed deeds to do about your own sins...

And should you ever manage to pry that big fat log out of your own eye...

You may someday even be useful to help another with her sin...

And there are different treatments for different kinds of sin...

I mean, I was shocked at your question above, I gotta say!


Arsenios

It must be tough to not know the gracious cleansing atonement of the Savior.

 

[Arsenios]

It must be tough to not know the gracious cleansing atonement of the Savior.

He will clean you all right...

Then you need to keep clean the cleansing you have been given by Him...

What happens is that you have your first foul thought...

And the clean you had becomes the clean you used to have...

But Menno, you have indeed put your finger directly on the pulse of the difference between the Ancient Faith with a 2000 year history, and the Protestant rebellion from Latin Rome, and it does center on repentance from sin... If the Latins believed that repentance makes one worthy, their haters believe that repentance is really not all that crucial a feature of one's Salvation by God... And this because Christ suffered for your sins, so you really do not have to worry about your sin once you are "Saved", because we just keep on sinning, anyway, and Christ's "Work" on the Cross has fully paid the "debt" of any and all our sins, past, present and future... And while there is a way that this is true, it is only true if we keep our lives in a state of repentance from sin, and of vigil against sin, and all the other features of the "medicines of immortality" that the discipling and the Mysteries of the Body of Christ on earth affords their faithful...

From the Orthodox perspective, the war on sin is the reason we enter the Faith, and it is a war to the death, and our lives depend on our running the race in that war and winning... To lose is to die from the Gift of eternal Life in Christ, for to lose is to return to one's previous life of not living in obedience to God - To return to one's sins instead of living unto Christ-God... To be negligent in vigilance against sin in ourselves is to throw away the Salvation that is both given now and promised for eternity by God... The wages of sin is death, so we live lives of following Christ in repentance from sin an confess our sins when we falter and overcome them... It is a struggle to the end, that we shall be saved...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

He will clean you all right...

Then you need to keep clean the cleansing you have been given by Him...

What happens is that you have your first foul thought...

And the clean you had becomes the clean you used to have...

But Menno, you have indeed put your finger directly on the pulse of the difference between the Ancient Faith with a 2000 year history, and the Protestant rebellion from Latin Rome, and it does center on repentance from sin... If the Latins believed that repentance makes one worthy, their haters believe that repentance is really not all that crucial a feature of one's Salvation by God... And this because Christ suffered for your sins, so you really do not have to worry about your sin once you are "Saved", because we just keep on sinning, anyway, and Christ's "Work" on the Cross has fully paid the "debt" of any and all our sins, past, present and future... And while there is a way that this is true, it is only true if we keep our lives in a state of repentance from sin, and of vigil against sin, and all the other features of the "medicines of immortality" that the discipling and the Mysteries of the Body of Christ on earth affords their faithful...

From the Orthodox perspective, the war on sin is the reason we enter the Faith, and it is a war to the death, and our lives depend on our running the race in that war and winning... To lose is to die from the Gift of eternal Life in Christ, for to lose is to return to one's previous life of not living in obedience to God - To return to one's sins instead of living unto Christ-God... To be negligent in vigilance against sin in ourselves is to throw away the Salvation that is both given now and promised for eternity by God... The wages of sin is death, so we live lives of following Christ in repentance from sin an confess our sins when we falter and overcome them... It is a struggle to the end, that we shall be saved...


Arsenios

Once you are in Christ, you are cleansed. You have died with Christ, nevertheless you live. Yet, not you, but Christ lives within you.
We recognize our sin, but we also say, "Thanks be to God. There is now therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."
We believe that, by faith, because God has promised it. We are no longer striving to be perfect in hopes that we don't break the law. We know our perfection is found in Christ Jesus. We have peace with God. God has graciously re-established and reconciled us with the covenant he had with Adam. The new Adam, Jesus, restored us to the fellowship we once had in the garden. Rejoice, brother. You are made whole through Christ.

 

[Arsenios]

Once you are in Christ, you are cleansed. You have died with Christ, nevertheless you live. Yet, not you, but Christ lives within you.
We recognize our sin, but we also say, "Thanks be to God. There is now therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."
We believe that, by faith, because God has promised it. We are no longer striving to be perfect in hopes that we don't break the law. We know our perfection is found in Christ Jesus. We have peace with God. God has graciously re-established and reconciled us with the covenant he had with Adam. The new Adam, Jesus, restored us to the fellowship we once had in the garden. Rejoice, brother. You are made whole through Christ.

"...but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."

Does this mean anything for the person who does not endure to the end?

Whose responsibility is it to endure to the end?

Who actually does this enduring?

How do you understand it, Menno?

Found in all three Synoptics...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

We are no longer striving to be perfect in hopes that we don't break the law.

I would hope not!

Love of God needs to be your reason...

Your only reason...

Without any holding back...

At all...

24/7/365/6


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

"...but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."

Does this mean anything for the person who does not endure to the end?

Whose responsibility is it to endure to the end?

Who actually does this enduring?

How do you understand it, Menno?

Found in all three Synoptics...


Arsenios

It means the saints will persevere in their faith.
It does not mean that the saints have to beat their selves into a state of holiness. God makes us holy because our life is exchanged for Christ's life.

2 Corinthians 5:21
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

 

[Albion]

The EOC is fairly preoccupied with sin...

Sins of knowledge and of ignorance...
Sins of commission and of omission...
Sins in thoughts, and in words, and in deeds...

It is hard to repent of something that is not recognized as needing repenting from...

Oh sure. We can list particular sins if need be. But that is not a discussion on the meaning of sin, the consequences of sin, or anything like that.

 

[Arsenios]

Oh sure.

Do I detect sarcastic dismay??

And perhaps an operatic fugue stage left?

The beating of cheeks and grandiloquent suddenness of departure?

We can list particular sins if need be.
But that is not a discussion on the meaning of sin,
the consequences of sin,
or anything like that.

Those were not particular sins, but categories of a few of them...

I mean, here we are on a Christian forum and nobody wants to talk about the enemy of our Salvation...

Nobody wants to discuss what brings death upon mankind...

Nobody wants to talk about sin and repentance...

Instead, everybody wants to talk about what a great guy God is and how much he did for us all on that cross...

About how we are now relieved of any need for the hard work of repentance...

"Why shucks, Clementine, Jesus already died for all them sins an' future one's too..."

And "How 'BOUT the Cowboys?!? Didja see that interception??"

I mean, are you all a bunch of sin-sissies 'round here???

I mean, if you are unwilling to walk the talk of the Righteousness of Christ...
Then you will not be given the Righteousness you are only TALKING about...

I mean, you want to sit around and judge the world while you are still wallering in your sins?

An' repentance is given after the Gift of the Righteousness of Christ?

Pharisitic Leaven is Hypocrisy and Judgementalism, you know...

Enough - Rant over!


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

It means the saints will persevere in their faith.
It does not mean that the saints have to beat their selves into a state of holiness.
God makes us holy because our life is exchanged for Christ's life.

2 Corinthians 5:21
For our sake He made Him to be sin
Who knew no sin,
so that in Him
we should become the Righteousness of God.

You have not exchanged your life for that of God IF you are not willing to struggle against your own sins...

And not as some sissie shadow-boxer beating the air, either... (Paul's words)

Overcoming the world is not for sissies but for the daring and the persistent and the uncompromising...

Outside of Christ, it cannot be done very often...

So we are Baptized INTO Christ...

And therein we can and should and will and do...

Or not...

Clinging to one's sins is not the Righteousness of God...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

You have not exchanged your life for that of God IF you are not willing to struggle against your own sins...

And not as some sissie shadow-boxer beating the air, either... (Paul's words)

Overcoming the world is not for sissies but for the daring and the persistent and the uncompromising...

Outside of Christ, it cannot be done very often...

So we are Baptized INTO Christ...

And therein we can and should and will and do...

Or not...

Clinging to one's sins is not the Righteousness of God...


Arsenios

Paul said, "For I have been...crucified with Christ..." That is past tense, Arsenios.
All whom God has saved by grace, through faith, have been (past tense) crucified with Christ. We hold to this truth by faith, Arsenios.

 

[Arsenios]

Paul said, "For I have been...crucified with Christ..."
That is past tense, Arsenios.

For him at that time it was... Because he had been perfected/matured in the Faith...

All whom God has saved by grace, through faith, have been (past tense) crucified with Christ.

Does this mean that they have willingly denied themselves...?

That they have taken up their cross willingly...?

That they have willingly followed Christ...?

Or does it mean that Christ did all that for them and so now they do not have to do anything except bask in God's undeserved Gift...

We hold to this truth by faith, Arsenios.

You are supposed to hold it by following Christ...

By purification of the heart...

By repentance from your own sins...

By obedience to Christ...

By your own suffering for Christ, which fulfills what was left behind of the sufferings of Christ...

Which is what Paul did...

You cannot claim Crucifixion with Christ apart from your own suffering for His Body...

Lest you partake of the leaven of the Pharisee, the hypocrisy of claiming what you have not acquired...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

For him at that time it was... Because he had been perfected/matured in the Faith...



Does this mean that they have willingly denied themselves...?

That they have taken up their cross willingly...?

That they have willingly followed Christ...?

Or does it mean that Christ did all that for them and so now they do not have to do anything except bask in God's undeserved Gift...



You are supposed to hold it by following Christ...

By purification of the heart...

By repentance from your own sins...

By obedience to Christ...

By your own suffering for Christ, which fulfills what was left behind of the sufferings of Christ...

Which is what Paul did...

You cannot claim Crucifixion with Christ apart from your own suffering for His Body...

Lest you partake of the leaven of the Pharisee, the hypocrisy of claiming what you have not acquired...


Arsenios

Arsenios, we bask in God's gracious exchange of our wickedness for Christ's righteousness. This is what the Bible means when it repeatedly tells us that we are "in Christ." Believe it by faith.
Our Father does command us to go and make disciples. We obey, in love. It is a glorious and joyful obedience, knowing our Father accepts us in Christ. We don't serve out of fear that our Father may cast us out. By faith we claim that those the Father has given Jesus will in no way be cast out.
Goodness, Arsenios, you live as though you are petrified that your works may not be enough. You live as though Jesus hasn't paid the price for your sins and you are required to save yourself. You live as though the cross and resurrection are of no effect for you and your relationship with God. You live like the Judaisers whom Paul condemned in his letter to the Galatians.
How miserable you must be.

 

[Albion]

Do I detect sarcastic dismay??

No. Neither sarcasm nor dismay. It was to agree with your point even though it stated the obvious. No one here is rooting for sin.

Those were not particular sins, but categories of a few of them...

Again, does saying that move the discussion at all?

 

[Josiah]

.... so.... still NOTHING that substantiates the unique, new dogma of one singular, individual denomination that Mary uniquely was conceived without original sin. NOTHING. Much less substantiation that this is a matter of highest certainty and importance.

 

[Arsenios]

No. Neither sarcasm nor dismay. It was to agree with your point even though it stated the obvious. No one here is rooting for sin.


Again, does saying that move the discussion at all?

Well, it does show the begging of the questions:

Does man have control over sin?
If yes, how much?
If no, then what?
Is there a relationship between doing sin and Salvation by God?
Is the Call of God to Repentance from Sin sufficient to begin repenting from sin?
Is the Perfecting of the Faith in one's self the attaining of freedom from doing sin?
Is there a difference between doing a sin and neglecting a virtue?
Do we struggle against sin as Christians for our Salvation?
Is our Salvation independent of our committing sin?

These are but a few in one of my small hands...
I have a whole barrel full more if you like...

Protestants here do not seem to like talking about sin...
Darkness loves to hide...
MY sins sure run from the Light...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

.... so.... still NOTHING that substantiates the unique, new dogma of one singular, individual denomination that Mary uniquely was conceived without original sin. NOTHING. Much less substantiation that this is a matter of highest certainty and importance.

No Catholics here seem to want to engage you on this point, Josiah...

...EITHER...

You have overwhelmed them with the brilliance of your keen intellect...

...OR...

They just don't like talking to you for some other reason that reflects badly on THEIR moral character...

Either way it is a win-win for you, right?

No need to look at self, right?


Arsenios

 

[atpollard]

Does man have control over sin?
If yes, how much?
If no, then what?

Yes. We have the complete ability to think about sin, to feel the pull of the flesh drawing us towards sin and to throw off all restraint and allow the thought and temptation to give birth to full grown sinful actions. It is our birthright as human beings.

Romans 3

What we do not have, is the ability to live sinless. To meet God’s perfect standards ... or (without God’s help) to even desire to please God and avoid sin. At our very best, we can choose to embrace a religious hubris and substitute something with the appearance of righteousness, but lacking any true grace or power as our sin of choice. To carefully condemn the mockers and take our seat with the Pharisees.

It is God who gives life (Ephesians 2) and it is God who draws and teaches (John 6) and it is the the Holy Spirit who empowers us ... granting both the desire and the ability to do as God has commanded.

That is our control over sin (In my personal experience).