Sinless Mary

[Arsenios]

2 Timothy 2:16-17
All Scripture is breathed out by God and
profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
*that*the man of God*may be complete,
*equipped*for every good work.

No, scripture doesn't disagree.

Don't just stop there, Menno:

1Ti 3:15
But if I tarry long,
that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in The House of God,
which is the Church of the Living God,
the Pillar and Ground of the Truth.

What it doesn't say is: "All tradition of Eastern Orthodoxy is breathed out by God." We don't find that anywhere.

No, of course not - It plainly says that the Church is the Ground and the Pillar of Truth...

I even underlined some of it for you to see what it says...

Does Scripture mean what it says, Menno?


Arsenios

You and your unscriptural traditions must be loosed to the scrap heap of idols

.

 

[Josiah]

Arsenios,

I can find nothing in Scripture that says Mary uniquely was conceived without original sin. And nothing in that regard in any of the 7 Ecumenical Councils for 3 Ecumenical Creeds.

I can find a verse that says for all have sinned and fall short (the definition of sin). Yes, Scripture gives ONE and ONLY ONE exception (the not totally human Jesus) but nothing that lists Mary has an exception.

I can find nothing that declares such is a matter of highest certainty and importance possible.





.

 

[MennoSota]

Don't just stop there, Menno:

1Ti 3:15
But if I tarry long,
that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in The House of God,
which is the Church of the Living God,
the Pillar and Ground of the Truth.



No, of course not - It plainly says that the Church is the Ground and the Pillar of Truth...

I even underlined some of it for you to see what it says...

Does Scripture mean what it says, Menno?


Arsenios

.

That passage is great. Of course it has nothing to do with your denomination...
8Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued,not addicted to much wine,*not greedy for dishonest gain.*9They must*hold the mystery of the faith with*a clear conscience.*10And*let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless.*11Their wives likewise must*be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded,*faithful in all things.*12Let deacons each be*the husband of one wife,*managing their children and their own households well.*13For*those who serve well as deacons gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.

14I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these things to you so that,*15if I delay, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, a pillar and buttress of the truth.*16Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness:

He*was manifested in the flesh,

vindicated*by the Spirit,

seen by angels,

proclaimed among the nations,

believed on in the world,

taken up in glory.

 

[Arsenios]

That passage is great. Of course it has nothing to do with your denomination....

You wrote that Scripture is the Ground and the Pillar of Truth...

I wrote that it is the Church, the Body of Christ...

This passage refutes your view and affirms the Church's view that I affirm too...

Quid... Erat... Splat!!

Unless, of course, you do not believe Scripture...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

You wrote that Scripture is the Ground and the Pillar of Truth...

I wrote that it is the Church, the Body of Christ...

This passage refutes your view and affirms the Church's view that I affirm too...

Quid... Erat... Splat!!

Unless, of course, you do not believe Scripture...


Arsenios

How would one know...if not for God's word speaking, Arsenios?
Second, you misunderstand what the church is in scripture. You seem to think it is a lineage of teachers who could speak no wrong. It is no such thing.
The church is the adopted children of God, elect from before the foundation of the world. It is God's chosen people, not of lineage via denominational heritage, but from every tribe and tongue as selected by God Himself.
Stop playing the fool by claiming your jezebel denomination as God's church. There may be some individuals who attend the building and follow EOC traditions, but the vast majority march strait to hell at the bidding of their unregenerate priests.

 

[Albion]

You wrote that Scripture is the Ground and the Pillar of Truth...

I wrote that it is the Church, the Body of Christ...

That's true, except that we must understand what the word church means in that case.

It is not a reference to any particular denomination or institutional church body that thinks it is the "One True Church." The reference is to the whole body of believers wherever they may be--what is sometimes called the "invisible church."

 

[MoreCoffee]

That's true, except that we must understand what the word church means in that case.

It is not a reference to any particular denomination or institutional church body that thinks it is the "One True Church." The reference is to the whole body of believers wherever they may be--what is sometimes called the "invisible church."

Well, no. The word "church" does not reference some ethereal invisible ghostly "body of believers wherever they may be ... called 'invisible church'" That's just stupid. "church" refers to Christians who are visible who meet together in visible assemblies often in buildings that are entirely visible. It takes a special kind of stupid to pretend that the church is 'invisible' on Earth.

 

[Albion]

Well, no. The word "church" does not reference some ethereal invisible ghostly "body of believers wherever they may be ... called 'invisible church'" That's just stupid. "church" refers to Christians who are visible who meet together in visible assemblies often in buildings that are entirely visible. It takes a special kind of stupid to pretend that the church is 'invisible' on Earth.

Now THAT's what is stupid. Literally. Woefully uninformed.

Sure, you want to defend the position taken by your denomination if possible. BUT the passage itself--the verse itself--identifies the church in the way I described. Try reading it.

If you have to respond by satirizing the church of Christ and characterizing it in silly and inaccurate terms of your own invention, you might as well have saved yourself the effort.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Now THAT's what is stupid. Literally. Woefully uninformed.

Sure, you want to defend the position taken by your denomination if possible. BUT the passage itself--the verse itself--identifies the church in the way I described. Try reading it.

If you have to respond by satirizing the church of Christ and characterizing it in silly and inaccurate terms of your own invention, you might as well have saved yourself the effort.

No, 1 Timothy 3:15 makes no mention of any invisible church; you're just reading your wacky theology into the verse - which is no surprise to people who pay close attention to the things that you post - the truth is that saint Paul speaks of the visible church as a visible apostle in it and he writes to a visible Christian (to wit saint Timothy) who is to preside over visible churches in the mission which saint Paul commissions him to perform. Now, it may be a wasted effort to post the passage for you to read but others may read it and it is to be hoped that some of them will see the truth of what it says; namely, that saint Timothy was ministering to visible Christians in visible churches and was asked by Paul to perform certain duties in those visible churches with the visible Christians therein.

1 Timothy 1:3-11 Now I asked you to remain at Ephesus, while I went into Macedonia, so that you would speak strongly against certain ones who have been teaching a different way, 4 against those who have been paying attention to fables and endless genealogies. These things present questions as if they were greater than the edification that is of God, which is in faith. 5 Now the goal of instruction is charity from a pure heart, and a good conscience, and an unfeigned faith. 6 Certain persons, wandering away from these things, have been turned aside to empty babbling, 7 desiring to be teachers of the law, but understanding neither the things that they themselves are saying, nor what they are affirming about these things. 8 But we know that the law is good, if one makes use of it properly. 9 Knowing this, that the law was not set in place for the just, but for the unjust and the insubordinate, for the impious and sinners, for the wicked and the defiled, for those who commit patricide, matricide, or homicide, 10 for fornicators, for males who sleep with males, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 which is in accord with the Gospel of the glory of the blessed God, the Gospel which has been entrusted to me.
...

1 Timothy 3:14-16 I am writing these things to you, with the hope that I will come to you soon. 15 But, if I am delayed, you should know the manner in which it is necessary to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and the foundation of truth. 16 And it is clearly great, this mystery of piety, which was manifested in the flesh, which was justified in the Spirit, which has appeared to Angels, which has been preached to the Gentiles, which is believed in the world, which has been taken up in glory.​

There is no "invisible church" in this last quoted passage but there is a visible church that is said to be the pillar and foundation of truth.

 

[Albion]

There is no "invisible church" in this last quoted passage but there is a visible church that is said to be the pillar and foundation of truth.

As I said before, you simply do not know what the term "invisible church" means. What's more, I made no particular issue over that terminology, noting only that the concept I referred to is also called (by some people) the invisible church.

If I had recognized at the time that you have not a clue, I wouldn't have mentioned the term at all.

 

[Josiah]

As I said before, you simply do not know what the term "invisible church" means. What's more, I made no particular issue over that terminology, noting only that the concept I referred to is also called (by some people) the invisible church.

If I had recognized at the time that you have not a clue, I wouldn't have mentioned the term at all.

The REALITY is that the RCC upholds the "invisible church" as much as Protestants do. The RCC also teaches that "the church" is US, the whole corpus of Christians - past, present and future. And the great majority of Catholics accept that I'm FULLY a part of THAT church (even though that's not the official spin, I'm a SEPARATED brother, an outsider - but by virtue of my Baptism and faith, still a Christian albeit not as fully as a Catholic).

The issue for the RCC (and LDS and a few others) is that they have ANOTHER concept of the church that completely overwhelms the first: The RCC simply looks at it itself in the mirror and dogmatially insists: THAT'S the church (in its fullness, the church with authority and unmitigated power). The VISIBLE Church (read: denomination, always the one claiming such) is simply seem as more important and relevant than the INVISIBLE one because it's not about family or faith or love or the Body of Christ in these demonations, it's about POWER, P.O.W.E.R., authority, rule, lording it over other Christians as the Gentiles do, being unaccountabile. If one denomination "trumps" all Christians (individually AND collectively) then the "church" has to be a denomination (a 'VISIBLE' legal/political/geographical institution) so that it is identifible: WHAT denomination is all power, lord over all, unaccountable, when IT alone speaks ergo God speaks, when IT speaks God must obey and agree. If POWER is the whole enchilada, there has to be one who has it and the rest who don't.

So while the RCC (and LDS, too btw) DO have a concept of the "invisible church" (the one, holy, catholic, apostolic church - the communion of believers), it's irrelevant because they are all about POWER. And there can be only one dictator and he must be clearly visible, identifiable. Which is why I'm (technically, sorta, kinda) a part of the church, I (and anything associated with me) has no power, no authority, no voice, I can't even forgive people in God's name - nor can another other denomination, just itself. The concept of the "invisible" church exists, it's just rendered irrelevant.



To the point: There's NOTHING in Scripture or in Apostolic Tradition that remotely teaches that Mary uniquely was conceived without original sin. And CERTAINLY nothing to support the RCC's claim in 1870 that this is a matter of highest importance and certainty possible.




.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Protestants invented "the invisible church" as a substitute for having one visible church because their religion is fractured into so many disagreeing sects that they cannot maintain any notion of a single visible church. Having a phantom "invisible church" is the only way that Protestant sects can pretend to being one church.

 

[TurtleHare]

Protestants invented "the invisible church" as a substitute for having one visible church because their religion is fractured into so many disagreeing sects that they cannot maintain any notion of a single visible church. Having a phantom "invisible church" is the only way that Protestant sects can pretend to being one church.

Is every congregant a believer in your Roman Catholic churches throughout the entire world to say that you can see the visible church of believers eh?

 

[Arsenios]

How would one know...if not for God's word speaking, Arsenios?

It is taught by the Ekklesia of God for some 2000 years now - I mean, we even wrote it down in our Bible for all to see...

Second, you misunderstand what the church is in scripture.

The Ekklesia - The assembly of the Faithful - Called out from the world unto God - Here and now upon this earth...

Indeed the Heavenly Kingdom on earth... The Body of our Lord and Savior...

You seem to think it is a lineage of teachers who could speak no wrong. It is no such thing.

It is also the hospital for sinners...

Sanctuary for the afflicted...

The Mother of all the Faithful...

What does Scripture say?

1Ti 3:15
...The House of God,
...The Church of the Living God,
..the Pillar and Ground of the Truth.

So are you denying that the Church is the Ground and the Pillar of the Truth???

The church is the adopted children of God, elect from before the foundation of the world.
It is God's chosen people,
not of lineage via denominational heritage,
but from every tribe and tongue
as selected by God Himself.

The Body of Christ IS the Church...
To enter that Body, Scripture tells us that we are Baptized into Christ...
That Christ Himself Baptizes us through His Servants...
His Servants who are themselves already members of His Body...

Stop playing the fool by claiming your jezebel denomination as God's church.

We know who we are, and I will not speak falsehoods for you...

There may be some individuals who attend the building and follow EOC traditions,
but the vast majority march strait to hell at the bidding of their unregenerate priests.

Well, the road to hell is paved with the skulls of priests, no question...

And Church Buildings come and go...

And not all are healed...

But we have been producing miracle working Saints for 2000 years now and counting...

I have seen none such outside the Apostolic Churches...

This Faith is my Home, my Brother...

Beside my brothers here, I am but a worm...

Here is the Sanctuary of the Holy Ones of God...


Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

Is every congregant a believer in your Roman Catholic churches throughout the entire world to say that you can see the visible church of believers eh?

No one suggests that the church on Earth is made up of nothing but "the saved", no one except some evangelicals.

 

[Arsenios]

That's true, except that we must understand what the word church means in that case.

It is not a reference to any particular denomination or institutional church body that thinks it is the "One True Church." The reference is to the whole body of believers wherever they may be--what is sometimes called the "invisible church."

Paul wrote his Epistles to the Church, to the Ekklesia...

To the Church at Corinth...
To the Church at Rome...
To the Church at Thessalonika...
To the Church at Colossae...

All ONE Church...
Different geographical locations...
All ONE Body of Christ...

Eph 4:4-6
There is One Body,
and One Spirit,
even as ye are Called
in One hope of your Calling;
One Lord,
One Faith,
One Baptism,
One God and Father of all,
Who is above all,
and through all,
and in you all.

This is the Church I mean...
The Apostolic Faith of Christ's Church...

Luk 18:8
When the Son of man cometh,
shall he find the Faith upon the earth?

the Bible here is discussing a very visible Church on earth...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

No one suggests that the church on Earth is made up of nothing but "the saved", no one except some evangelicals.

If the Church is a Hospital - An Inn for the wounded by sin - then the wounds of sin will be found there, being treated:

Luk 10:34-35
And He went to him,
and bound up his wounds,
pouring in oil and wine,
and set him on his own beast,
and brought him to an Inn,
and took care of him.
And on the morrow when He departed,
He took out two pence,
and gave them to the host,
and said unto him,

"Take care of him;
and whatsoever thou spendest more,
when I come again,
I will repay thee."

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

It is taught by the Ekklesia of God for some 2000 years now - I mean, we even wrote it down in our Bible for all to see...



The Ekklesia - The assembly of the Faithful - Called out from the world unto God - Here and now upon this earth...

Indeed the Heavenly Kingdom on earth... The Body of our Lord and Savior...



It is also the hospital for sinners...

Sanctuary for the afflicted...

The Mother of all the Faithful...

What does Scripture say?

1Ti 3:15
...The House of God,
...The Church of the Living God,
..the Pillar and Ground of the Truth.

So are you denying that the Church is the Ground and the Pillar of the Truth???



The Body of Christ IS the Church...
To enter that Body, Scripture tells us that we are Baptized into Christ...
That Christ Himself Baptizes us through His Servants...
His Servants who are themselves already members of His Body...



We know who we are, and I will not speak falsehoods for you...



Well, the road to hell is paved with the skulls of priests, no question...

And Church Buildings come and go...

And not all are healed...

But we have been producing miracle working Saints for 2000 years now and counting...

I have seen none such outside the Apostolic Churches...

This Faith is my Home, my Brother...

Beside my brothers here, I am but a worm...

Here is the Sanctuary of the Holy Ones of God...


Arsenios

Your church hasn't been producing miracle working saints.
God has gifted His children so that some might have the gift of healing. Your denomination is irrelevant.

 

[Arsenios]

Your church hasn't been producing miracle working saints.

We have been for 2000 years now and counting...

We never stop creating them...

Christ is the Head of His Body...

I am sorry you have no way to know...

Forgive me for being such a terrible witness...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

We have been for 2000 years now and counting...

We never stop creating them...

Christ is the Head of His Body...

I am sorry you have no way to know...

Forgive me for being such a terrible witness...


Arsenios

You create nothing, Arsenios. If someone who attends an EO church is chosen by God, it comes despite church, not because of it.
Christ is the head of His body, which makes up the church. The body of Christ is not the EOC. I'm sorry you have no way to know...
May God choose to make you alive in Christ.