Double Predestination

Imalive

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It is because a spiritually dead person is spiritually dead that he rejects God. There shouldn't have been any issue with that fact.

That is not wilfully rejecting. That is just being dumb and blind.
Btw Islam teaches it, doesnt surprise me:

Islam teaches a concept of divine destiny called Qadar – this is where human will is predetermined by Allah’s will (as stated in the Quran): " to whoever among you wills to go straight, but ye shall not will except as God wills; the Cherisher of the Worlds."10
 

Albion

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I was commenting only on the mistaken suggestion (written by another member) that a spiritually dead person cannot reject anything.
 

MennoSota

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Where in the bible does it say God damns people to hell? It does not.
Where in the Bible does it say God desires most people to fry in hell? It does not.
Where in the Bible does it say that Jesus died for the sins of a few people but not most? It does not.
Where in the Bible does it say that God hates most people but loved only a few (not the world)? It does not.
Where in the Bible does it say that God elects most to fry eternally in hell? It does not.


Starting 500 years ago, a few people invent this conjecture entirely from what they regard as "reason". The Calvinist twists and turns what Scripture says...... twists and turns what is always in the context of comfort into a terror, Gospel into law.... what is intended to be about God's unconditional love into a horrible hate for most people. They twist this comforting doctrine about a loving God into a teaching of terror and a "god" more in common with the Allah of Islam than the God of Christianity..

Lutheranism respectfully sticks to what scriptures says. The scriptures always present predestination as a comfort. And of course, there is much here that is the paradox, unlike the Reformed who like to fiddle with scripture and make God "logical" and to make God "make sense" to them.


XI. Election. The Epitome of Concord

1] Concerning this article no public dissension has occurred among the theologians of the Augsburg Confession. But since it is a consolatory article, if treated properly, and lest offensive disputations concerning the same be instituted in the future, it is also explained in this writing.


Affirmative Theses.

The Pure and True Doctrine concerning This Article.

1. To begin with [First of all], the distinction between praescientia et praedestinatio, that is, between God's foreknowledge and His eternal election, ought to be accurately observed.

2. For the foreknowledge of God is nothing else than that God knows all things before they happen, as it is written Dan. 2:28: There is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days.

3. This foreknowledge extends alike over the godly and the wicked, but it is not the cause of evil, neither of sin, namely, of doing what is wrong (which originally arises from the devil and the wicked, perverse will of man), nor of their ruin [that men perish], for which they themselves are responsible [which they must ascribe to themselves]; but it only regulates it, and fixes a limit to it [how far it should progress and] how long it should last, and all this to the end that it should serve His elect for their salvation, notwithstanding that it is evil in itself.

4. The predestination or eternal election of God, however, extends only over the godly, beloved children of God, being a cause of their salvation, which He also provides, as well as disposes what belongs thereto. Upon this [predestination of God] our salvation is founded so firmly that the gates of hell cannot overcome it. John 10:28; Matt. 16:18.

5. This [predestination of God] is not to be investigated in the secret counsel of God, but to be sought in the Word of God, where it is also revealed.

6. But the Word of God leads us to Christ, who is the Book of Life, in whom all are written and elected that are to be saved in eternity, as it is written Eph. 1:4: He hath chosen us in Him [Christ] before the foundation of the world.

7. This Christ calls to Himself all sinners and promises them rest, and He is in earnest [seriously wills] that all men should come to Him and suffer themselves to be helped, to whom He offers Himself in His Word, and wishes them to hear it and not to stop their ears or [neglect and] despise the Word. Moreover, He promises the power and working of the Holy Ghost, and divine assistance for perseverance and eternal salvation [that we may remain steadfast in the faith and attain eternal salvation].

8. Therefore we should judge concerning this our election to eternal life neither from reason nor from the Law of God, which lead us either into a reckless, dissolute, Epicurean life or into despair, and excite pernicious thoughts in the hearts of men, for they cannot, as long as they follow their reason, successfully refrain from thinking: If God has elected me to salvation, I cannot be condemned, no matter what I do; and again: If I am not elected to eternal life, it is of no avail what good I do; it is all [all my efforts are] in vain anyway.

9. But it [the true judgment concerning predestination] must be learned alone from the holy Gospel concerning Christ, in which it is clearly testified that God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all, and that He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance and believe in the Lord Christ. Rom. 11:32; Ezek. 18:23; 33:11; 2 Pet. 3:9; 1 John 2:2.

10. Whoever, now, is thus concerned about the revealed will of God, and proceeds according to the order which St. Paul has observed in the Epistle to the Romans, who first directs men to repentance, to knowledge of sins, to faith in Christ, to divine obedience, before he speaks of the mystery of the eternal election of God, to him this doctrine [concerning God's predestination] is useful and consolatory.

11. However, that many are called and few chosen, Matt. 22:14, does not mean that God is not willing to save everybody; but the reason is that they either do not at all hear God's Word, but wilfully despise it, stop their ears and harden their hearts, and in this manner foreclose the ordinary way to the Holy Ghost, so that He cannot perform His work in them, or, when they have heard it, make light of it again and do not heed it, for which [that they perish] not God or His election, but their wickedness, is responsible. [2 Pet. 2:1ff ; Luke 11:49. 52; Heb. 12:25f.]

12. Thus far a Christian should occupy himself [in meditation] with the article concerning the eternal election of God, as it has been revealed in God's Word, which presents to us Christ as the Book of Life, which He opens and reveals to us by the preaching of the holy Gospel, as it is written Rom. 8:30: Whom He did predestinate, them He also called. In Him we are to seek the eternal election of the Father, who has determined in His eternal divine counsel that He would save no one except those who know His Son Christ and truly believe on Him. Other thoughts are to be [entirely] banished [from the minds of the godly], as they proceed not from God, but from the suggestion of the Evil Foe, whereby he attempts to weaken or entirely to remove from us the glorious consolation which we have in this salutary doctrine, namely, that we know [assuredly] that out of pure grace, without any merit of our own, we have been elected in Christ to eternal life, and that no one can pluck us out of His hand; as He has not only promised this gracious election with mere words, but has also certified it with an oath and sealed it with the holy Sacraments, which we can [ought to] call to mind in our most severe temptations, and take comfort in them, and therewith quench the fiery darts of the devil.

13. Besides, we should use the greatest diligence to live according to the will of God, and, as St. Peter admonishes, 2 Pet. 1:10, make our calling sure, and especially adhere to [not recede a finger's breadth from] the revealed Word: that can and will not fail us.

14. By this brief explanation of the eternal election of God His glory is entirely and fully given to God, that out of pure mercy alone, without all merit of ours, He saves us according to the purpose of His will; besides, also, no cause is given any one for despondency or a vulgar, wild life [no opportunity is afforded either for those more severe agitations of mind and faintheartedness or for Epicureanism].


Negative Theses

False Doctrine concerning This Article.

Accordingly, we believe and hold: When any teach the doctrine concerning the gracious election of God to eternal life in such a manner that troubled Christians cannot comfort themselves therewith, but are thereby led to despondency or despair, or the impenitent are strengthened in their wantonness, that such doctrine is treated [wickedly and erroneously] not according to the Word and will of God, but according to reason and the instigation of the cursed Satan. For, as the apostle testifies, Rom. 15:4, whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we, through patience and comfort of the Scriptures, might have hope. Therefore we reject the following errors:

1. As when it is taught that God is unwilling that all men repent and believe the Gospel.

2. Also, that when God calls us to Himself, He is not in earnest that all men should come to Him.

3. Also, that God is unwilling that every one should be saved, but that some, without regard to their sins, from the mere counsel, purpose, and will of God, are ordained to condemnation so that they cannot be saved.

4. Also, that not only the mercy of God and the most holy merit of Christ, but also in us there is a cause of God's election, on account of which God has elected us to everlasting life.

All these are blasphemous and dreadful erroneous doctrines, whereby all the comfort which they have in the holy Gospel and the use of the holy Sacraments is taken from Christians, and therefore should not be tolerated in the Church of God.

May Almighty God and the Father of our Lord Jesus grant the grace of His Holy Ghost that we all may be one in Him, and constantly abide in this Christian unity, which is well pleasing to Him! Amen.



- Josiah
The wages of sin is...__________ Want to fill in the blank for us, Josiah?
Let's start at the beginning rather than skip over such an important detail.
Tell me, Josiah. Exactly how many humans are sinless and therefore do not receive the wages of sin?
 

MennoSota

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It is because a spiritually dead person is spiritually dead that he rejects God. There shouldn't have been any issue with that fact.

Wait! What?

Albion, do dead people make decisions? Have you gone to a grave site and had dead people accept or reject your advice?
I don't think you realize what being dead means.
 

user1234

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Heavenbound...
 

user1234

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Heavenbound...
 

Imalive

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Wait! What?

Albion, do dead people make decisions? Have you gone to a grave site and had dead people accept or reject your advice?
I don't think you realize what being dead means.

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
 

user1234

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Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
YES! More osas...I love it!!! :cheer:
 

MennoSota

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Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.

John 10:25-30
[25]Jesus replied, “I have already told you, and you don’t believe me. The proof is the work I do in my Father’s name.
[26]But you don’t believe me because you are not my sheep.
[27]My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
[28]I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me,
[29]for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. No one can snatch them from the Father’s hand.
[30]The Father and I are one.”

Notice that only the sheep the Father gives will listen. Either way you slice it, humans have no free choice in salvation. Either God has chosen them to be his sheep or God hasn't. Stop trying to place the responsibility for salvation on humans. Salvation is a gift of grace that the King chooses to give to the sheep that the Father has given.
 

user1234

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John 10:25-30
[25]Jesus replied, “I have already told you, and you don’t believe me. The proof is the work I do in my Father’s name.
[26]But you don’t believe me because you are not my sheep.
[27]My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
[28]I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me,
[29]for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. No one can snatch them from the Father’s hand.
[30]The Father and I are one.”

Notice that only the sheep the Father gives will listen. Either way you slice it, humans have no free choice in salvation. Either God has chosen them to be his sheep or God hasn't. Stop trying to place the responsibility for salvation on humans. Salvation is a gift of grace that the King chooses to give to the sheep that the Father has given.
Again...more osas verses...yay...
cool place ya got here! :disgonbegood:
 

Imalive

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This is what I meant to say, but he says it better:

Calvinists teach that “the natural man is blind and deaf to the message of the gospel,” but I learned that is the condition of a judicially hardened man, not a natural condition from birth (Acts 28:27-28 ; John 12:39-41 ; Mark 4:11-12 ; Rom. 11 ). Instead, God’s gracious revelation and powerful gospel appeal is the means He has chosen to draw, or enable, whosoever hears it to come. Thus, anyone who does hear or see His truth may respond to that truth, which is why they are held response-able (able-to-respond).

https://www.google.com/amp/s/soteri...e-5-points-that-lead-me-out-of-calvinism/amp/

Acts 28:27-28King James Version (KJV)
27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
 

user1234

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This is what I meant to say, but he says it better:

Calvinists teach that “the natural man is blind and deaf to the message of the gospel,” but I learned that is the condition of a judicially hardened man, not a natural condition from birth (Acts 28:27-28 ; John 12:39-41 ; Mark 4:11-12 ; Rom. 11 ). Instead, God’s gracious revelation and powerful gospel appeal is the means He has chosen to draw, or enable, whosoever hears it to come. Thus, anyone who does hear or see His truth may respond to that truth, which is why they are held response-able (able-to-respond).

https://www.google.com/amp/s/soteri...e-5-points-that-lead-me-out-of-calvinism/amp/

Acts 28:27-28King James Version (KJV)
27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
I rather like how you say it good too yes no? :hearts:
 

Imalive

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John 10:25-30
[25]Jesus replied, “I have already told you, and you don’t believe me. The proof is the work I do in my Father’s name.
[26]But you don’t believe me because you are not my sheep.
[27]My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
[28]I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me,
[29]for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. No one can snatch them from the Father’s hand.
[30]The Father and I are one.”

Notice that only the sheep the Father gives will listen. Either way you slice it, humans have no free choice in salvation. Either God has chosen them to be his sheep or God hasn't. Stop trying to place the responsibility for salvation on humans. Salvation is a gift of grace that the King chooses to give to the sheep that the Father has given.

And some of those hardened blinded not chosen not given to them Paul is gonna make jealous and save in Romans 11. They are responsible for hardening their hearts. Thats why God rejected them and went to the foolish gentiles to make em jealous and save them too.
Jerusalem you did not want. That was a choice. God says it was a choice and He held em responsible.
 

MennoSota

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And some of those hardened blinded not chosen not given to them Paul is gonna make jealous and save in Romans 11. They are responsible for hardening their hearts. Thats why God rejected them and went to the foolish gentiles to make em jealous and save them too.
Jerusalem you did not want. That was a choice. God says it was a choice and He held em responsible.
Paul is gonna make jealous???
You are fighting against the bit.
 

Imalive

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Paul is gonna make jealous???
You are fighting against the bit.

What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”[d]

9 And David says:

“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,
And bow down their back always.”[e]

Israel’s Rejection Not Final
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!

13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
 

atpollard

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Correct. The "issue" I have with the uber/hyper/traditional Calvinist is the insistence that if Election of the Saved is true - ergo the equal Election of the Condemned must also be true, in other words, that if we agree with Scirpture about one we must disagree with Scripture on the other in order to be "logical." Calvinists often use the ploy that if Arminianism is wrong, ERGO Calvinism MUST be right because those are the only "logical" possibilities (although no one for 1500 years realized that or thought of either one). It's an illogical and silly ploy but used constantly. Along with "If Jesus died for all as Scripture says, then the whole world must be saved!" It too is illogical and silly (and of course also unbiblical).
Passed over the reprobate and left them in their dead condition. God 'did not save' the unsaved; they damned themselves. You have been shown that from multiple Calvinist sources and insist on repeating the lie that God elects most to damnation. Calvinism does not teach that. Calvinism teaches that those whom God chooses not to save (the non-elect) will not be able to save themselves (no Arminian Free Will) and are reprobate (left to their sin and dead state).

It is easy to attack a position when your position is "We don't know" and you lie about what your opponent believes.
 

Imalive

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Passed over the reprobate and left them in their dead condition. God 'did not save' the unsaved; they damned themselves. You have been shown that from multiple Calvinist sources and insist on repeating the lie that God elects most to damnation. Calvinism does not teach that. Calvinism teaches that those whom God chooses not to save (the non-elect) will not be able to save themselves (no Arminian Free Will) and are reprobate (left to their sin and dead state).

It is easy to attack a position when your position is "We don't know" and you lie about what your opponent believes.

Ah that makes sense. Reprobate. They seared their conscience and if ppl go too far God can't or doesnt want to save em anymore.
 

MennoSota

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What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”[d]

9 And David says:

“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,
And bow down their back always.”[e]

Israel’s Rejection Not Final
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!

13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
What's your point?
I see God Sovereignly choosing according to His own will.
Do you see free-will in those verses?
 

MennoSota

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Ah that makes sense. Reprobate. They seared their conscience and if ppl go too far God can't or doesnt want to save em anymore.
smh, you are still missing atpollard's point and adding something else.
 
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