WORTHY

Michael

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Context

We need to read and interpret the Bible in context!!

Indeed brother! You are absolutely correct.

Personally, there are things I am in agreement on with everyone on this site (even the couple guys that continually attack me!); and while none of us will ever agree totally on all points of doctrine or theology, we definitely do well to study the Scripture in context. And there are several contexts we need to consider, including WHO and WHEN the Word is being spoken or written.

Did a short video on this very important topic recently -

https://youtu.be/DyuWFL3_bAI
 

RichWh1

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All Christians should agree on the primary doctrines of the Christian faith.
We can disagree on secondary secondary doctrines without dividing over them.

Denominations have divided over secondary doctrines of faith, which is the reason there are many denominations in Christianity today.


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MennoSota

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Menno, you don't know what the Bible says about Baptism, that is clear. Acts 2:38-39 clearly says that Baptism forgives sins. I've told you before that Acts 2:36-37 doesn't weaken or destroy Acts 2:38-39.

You've been shown this multiple times yet still refuse to acknowledge what is plainly written on the page. The "magical, mystical element" was not created by me. It was created by God when He said to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Why invoke the Trinity in Baptism, if it is all symbolic and does not forgive sins? Why baptize anyone at all if it doesn't do anything? If it's just a display or performance so others can see that YOU are saved?

You smugly deny the forgiveness of sins to others because you don't comprehend how God in all His power, can combine His forgiveness with physical elements, and then have the audacity to say to me and others that our teachings are sending people to hell. It's absolutely shameful. In closing, Baptism and Communion forigive sins regardless of what you believe and how you wish to limit God's grace and love.
I know that only God has authority to forgive sins.
I know that God graciously adopts those whom he wills.
I know that those whom he wills to adopt will repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins.
Dead people aren't baptized. Dead people cannot repent and do not receive forgiveness of sins.
I know that baptizing dead people only makes their corpse wet.
Acts 2 is very clear that God cut, those who were elected, 3000 people to the heart (the adopted people of the promise) and they then repented, were baptized and received forgiveness of their sins.
Baptism was not the means of grace, it was the effect of grace. Grace came first. Baptism came afterward.
You worship baptism, while reducing God to your own personal genie.
 

zecryphon_nomdiv

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Since you can't answer the questions I asked you, this "discussion" is now terminated.
 
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MennoSota

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Since you can't answer the questions I asked you, this "discussion" is now terminated.
Great.
I stand on what God's word says. I have explained what it actually says. There is nothing more to say.
 

MennoSota

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5893cc5cd3a7b0b2f5e14df7fbc41d89.jpg
 

Arsenios

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Menno said:
The only one who can produce genuine repentance in your soul is God.

If you struggle with a sin long enough,
and are genuine in your repentance,
and ask God's help,
and confess it consistently,
God can be Gracious to you
and remove that iniquity from you...
God CAN heal your infirmity...
He does not have to do so...
He CAN leave you with it...
Even if you ask Him to remove it...
As He did with Paul...
With his "thorn in the flesh"...
And that is also a gift...

Arsenios
 

Lamb

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Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
God can be Gracious to you
and remove that iniquity from you...

It's so refreshing to see you and Menno agree on something :)
 

Michael

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If you struggle with a sin long enough,
and are genuine in your repentance,
and ask God's help,
and confess it consistently,
God can be Gracious to you
and remove that iniquity from you...
God CAN heal your infirmity...
He does not have to do so...
He CAN leave you with it...
Even if you ask Him to remove it...
As He did with Paul...
With his "thorn in the flesh"...
And that is also a gift...

Arsenios

Amen. Indeed by our repentance God sees we are serious and can free us totally from a bondage or nagging sin in our life. He has done it for me! Thank you Lord!

Although in Paul's case, it was a physical "infirmity" that he asked God to remove from him, not an iniquity or sin. So Paul had nothing to repent of here, only an asking of God for a healing in his body. I believe it was an issue with his eyes as we see in Gal 4:15 and Gal 6:11... but in any case, Paul would never have "gloried in any sin" or "taken pleasure in" any iniquity. Period. For he states in the passage you refer to above -

"Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong."
- 2Cor 12:9-10

And earlier in the letter he writes -

"If I must boast, I will boast in the things which concern my infirmity." - 2Cor 11:30 Again, not an iniquity or sin, but a physical affliction; which he again confirms in Galations -
"You know that because of physical infirmity I preached the gospel to you at the first." - Gal 4:13

Just pointing that out; not to you specifically, but I have heard others mistakenly preach that it was a sin or iniquity that Paul dealt with in 2Cor 12. And that would be false teaching.

Peace & Blessings!
 

Arsenios

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I have heard others mistakenly preach
that it was a sin or iniquity that Paul dealt with in 2Cor 12.
And that would be false teaching.

It was an evil thing that he was afflicted with...
He called it a messenger of Satan...
And he wanted nothing to do with it...
And it would not leave him alone...
And he asked God to remove it from him...
And he asked three times, persistently...
An infirmity is a pleasurable desire...
Or an evil desire...
Paul had gotten past most all of his...
And God gave him one more...
A great blessing...

The great Saints in the Church always seem to get one final temptation late in life...
Without temptations, what is there to overcome?


Arsenios
 

Michael

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It was an evil thing that he was afflicted with...
He called it a messenger of Satan...
And he wanted nothing to do with it...
And it would not leave him alone...
And he asked God to remove it from him...
And he asked three times, persistently...
An infirmity is a pleasurable desire...

Arsenios

I agree to this point.

It was a physical infirmity. Can anyone truly imagine the Apostle Paul "boasting in" iniquity? Of course not. No way anyone will ever get me to believe the lie that Paul's "affliction" was a sin of any kind.
From the passages I've quoted above it is absolutely clear that it was not a sin, but an ailment - most likely with his eyes - that Paul dealt with, and God allowed to remain with him until death. God would never not free someone from a bondage or sin they pleaded with Him to help be set free from. That's is not the God of the Bible who would do such. You won't find a verse in the canon of Scripture where God tells someone they must deal with a sin and that He won't help them be free of it.
Man, that's not the God I serve.

God's wisdom and understanding to us all.
 

RichWh1

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"They will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy." - Rev 3:4

Do we know that the promises of God are to those who prove themselves worthy?
These is the Word of Jesus. Can we accept it?

"Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me." - Matt 16:24

"And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me." - Matt 10:38

Jesus proved worthy of His calling; He bore His Cross. Will we bear our cross and prove worthy of what God has called us for?
If we are to overcome and enter into our inheritance, we must be found worthy.
For the Bible tells me so.

God's wisdom & understanding to all.

https://youtu.be/TjY7Y0ryRkc

You used the wrong descriptive adjective. Worthy is not a good word to be used to describe the Christian.
Righteous, justified yes. Worthy, no. Just my two cents


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Arsenios

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It was a physical infirmity.

Well, it WAS a thorn in the flesh, and the only other identifier he gave it was that it was a messenger of Satan...

[/quote]Can anyone truly imagine the Apostle Paul "boasting in" iniquity?[/quote]

He boasted in his weaknesses - They become lawless when he obeys them...

Of course not. No way anyone will ever get me to believe the lie that Paul's "affliction" was a sin of any kind.

Not a sin, but weakness that CAN become sin...

Which is why overcoming sin is so important, that we do not succumb to weakness...

From the passages I've quoted above it is absolutely clear that it was not a sin, but an ailment - most likely with his eyes - that Paul dealt with, and God allowed to remain with him until death. God would never not free someone from a bondage or sin they pleaded with Him to help be set free from. That's is not the God of the Bible who would do such. You won't find a verse in the canon of Scripture where God tells someone they must deal with a sin and that He won't help them be free of it.
Man, that's not the God I serve.

Paul told us WHY he surmised God gave it to him - For blessed humility...

What if it was hemmohroids?

Would Paul boast in his hemmohroids?

Yet he did boast in his temptations...

He did NOT boast in his sins...

Can you not 'hear' him saying to someone struggling in sins:

"My Brother, I am tempted just as you are...
There is no reason for despair!"


Arsenios
 

Michael

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You used the wrong descriptive adjective. Worthy is not a good word to be used to describe the Christian.
Righteous, justified yes. Worthy, no. Just my two cents


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Thanks for your input brother.
Here in this video teaching, I'm using the word "worthy" as the Scripture defines those who truly "overcome" and are found "faithful" when the Lord returns. Our modern definition of the word 'worthy' differs from the Biblical term "worthy" which the Lord Jesus and the Apostles used to describe, not the "Christian" as we use the term today, but of the "Elect of God." who will appear with Christ Jesus in that Day and "walk with Him in white, for they are worthy."
You will see in the video that I describe the terms "worthy" and "overcome" as the original Greek texts use them and apply them to the saints.

And even the word "righteous" is used too loosely today. In the Scripture, it defines one who has truly been behaving righteously. Covered this a bit in teaching from 1John chapter 3 -

https://youtu.be/S4VRby3_TVM
 

MennoSota

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Well, it WAS a thorn in the flesh, and the only other identifier he gave it was that it was a messenger of Satan...

Can anyone truly imagine the Apostle Paul "boasting in" iniquity?

He boasted in his weaknesses - They become lawless when he obeys them...

Not a sin, but weakness that CAN become sin...

Which is why overcoming sin is so important, that we do not succumb to weakness...

Paul told us WHY he surmised God gave it to him - For blessed humility...

What if it was hemmohroids?

Would Paul boast in his hemmohroids?

Yet he did boast in his temptations...

He did NOT boast in his sins...

Can you not 'hear' him saying to someone struggling in sins:

"My Brother, I am tempted just as you are...
There is no reason for despair!"


Arsenios
What Paul actually says is this:

Romans 8:1-6,31-39 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written, “For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.” No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 

Michael

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What Paul actually says is this:

Romans 8:1-6,31-39 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written, “For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.” No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Amen. We've been looking at this in our Bible Study on Romans Chapter 8 here on this site, what it really means to be "IN Christ." - https://www.christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?7749-Romans-8-Study-part-1-(IN-CHRIST)

Verses 31-39, I will share later, but for now can be found on my site - https://to-him-who-overcomes.com/entries/romans-8-study/assurance

Man, its good to be in the Word and gleaning Truth as the Holy Spirit teaches "those with ears to hear." :ange06:
 

MennoSota

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Being “in Christ Jesus” is a stupendous reality. It is breathtaking to be united to Christ. Bound to Christ.

If you are “in Christ” listen to what it means for you:

In Christ Jesus*you were given grace before the world was created.*Second Timothy 1:9, “He gave us grace*in Christ*Jesus before the ages began.”

In Christ Jesus*you were chosen by God before creation.*Ephesians 1:4, “[God] chose us*in [Christ]*before the foundation of the world.”

In Christ Jesus*you are loved by God with an inseparable love.*Romans 8:38–39, “I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God*in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

In Christ Jesus*you were redeemed and forgiven for all your sins.*Ephesians 1:7, “In [Christ]*we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses.”

In Christ Jesus*you are justified before God and the righteousness of God in Christ is imputed to you.*Second Corinthians 5:21, “For our sake [God] made [Christ] to be sin who knew no sin, so that*in him*we might become the righteousness of God.”

In Christ Jesus*you have become a new creation and a son of God.*Second Corinthians 5:17, “If anyone is*in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.”*Galatians 3:26, “In Christ Jesus*you are all sons of God, through faith.”

I pray that you will never grow weary of exploring and exulting in the inexhaustible privilege of being “in Christ Jesus.”

https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/six-things-it-means-to-be-in-christ-jesus
 

RichWh1

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Michael,

Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
2 Corinthians 5:20-21 -NASB

As you see, we are not made righteous; we become the very righteousness of God through Christ.

What does it mean ‘to continue in sin’?

According to Scripture who will be judged ‘according to their works’?

Christians are in the world, not of the world

Jeremiah speaks of the children of man We are children of God

How is the word ‘justification‘ abused and taken out of context?





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Michael

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We ALL will be judged & rewarded according to our works.

Michael,

Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
2 Corinthians 5:20-21 -NASB

As you see, we are not made righteous; we become the very righteousness of God through Christ.

What does it mean ‘to continue in sin’?

According to Scripture who will be judged ‘according to their works’?

Christians are in the world, not of the world

Jeremiah speaks of the children of man We are children of God

How is the word ‘justification‘ abused and taken out of context?

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I appreciate the conversation here, brother.
Let's address the question first of judgment "according to works."

One thing we must realize (which so few seem to understand today) is that never does God judge or reward anyone to their doctrine, profession of belief, or statement of faith.
He judges and rewards ALL (especially us "Christians") "according to our works." (Psalm 62:12, Prov 24:12, Jer 17:10, Jer 32:19, Eze 33:20, Lam 3:64, Matt 16:27, John 5:29, Rom 2:6, Rom 14:12, 2 Cor 5:10, 1Pet 1:17, Rev 20:12 and Rev 22:12 for starters).
As we see, this is abundantly clear according to the Scripture. There is no verse which cancels out this Truth. And there is no asterisk after those passages which exclude church-goers.

Oh, you'll find many a preacher-man or "Christian" song on the radio that tells us otherwise, but in the end it is only God's Word which will stand.
Truly our eternal lot is determined by our obedience and our behavior in this life. We could easily fill dozens of pages with references in the Scripture to confirm this Truth.

We have the right to "become" children of God. This is not automatic just because we may have 'accepted Christ.' As the Scripture (both Testaments) declares, God must receive us, and He does if we are repentance and obedient and proven faithful -

“Come out from among them
And be separate, says the Lord.
Do not touch what is unclean,
And I will receive you.”
18 “I will be a Father to you,
And you shall be My sons and daughters,
Says the Lord Almighty.”

- 2Cor 6:17-18

I know this is not taught from many pulpits, yet it is just as True as John 3:16. If it isn't, then none of the Bible can be trusted.

Even Jesus had to be proven faithful before God could "make Him Lord and Christ" (Acts 2:36) and "give Him all authority in heaven and on earth." (Matt 28:18). Do we realize that Jesus had to be perfected here on earth? Or that there was no Man Jesus before the baby in Bethlehem? And that to receive the inheritance He had to "learn obedience" to God? The written Word declares that "Though He were a Son, He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him." - Heb 5:8-9

Without obedience, even though we may have been 'saved' from bondage (as Israel was in the Exodus), we will not be the recipient of the promised "eternal salvation" that comes, as Jesus taught, to those who "endure til the end."

God's wisdom and understanding to us all.
 

RichWh1

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I appreciate the conversation here, brother.
Let's address the question first of judgment "according to works."

One thing we must realize (which so few seem to understand today) is that never does God judge or reward anyone to their doctrine, profession of belief, or statement of faith.
He judges and rewards ALL (especially us "Christians") "according to our works." (Psalm 62:12, Prov 24:12, Jer 17:10, Jer 32:19, Eze 33:20, Lam 3:64, Matt 16:27, John 5:29, Rom 2:6, Rom 14:12, 2 Cor 5:10, 1Pet 1:17, Rev 20:12 and Rev 22:12 for starters).
As we see, this is abundantly clear according to the Scripture. There is no verse which cancels out this Truth. And there is no asterisk after those passages which exclude church-goers.

Oh, you'll find many a preacher-man or "Christian" song on the radio that tells us otherwise, but in the end it is only God's Word which will stand.
Truly our eternal lot is determined by our obedience and our behavior in this life. We could easily fill dozens of pages with references in the Scripture to confirm this Truth.

We have the right to "become" children of God. This is not automatic just because we may have 'accepted Christ.' As the Scripture (both Testaments) declares, God must receive us, and He does if we are repentance and obedient and proven faithful -

“Come out from among them
And be separate, says the Lord.
Do not touch what is unclean,
And I will receive you.”
18 “I will be a Father to you,
And you shall be My sons and daughters,
Says the Lord Almighty.”

- 2Cor 6:17-18

I know this is not taught from many pulpits, yet it is just as True as John 3:16. If it isn't, then none of the Bible can be trusted.

Even Jesus had to be proven faithful before God could "make Him Lord and Christ" (Acts 2:36) and "give Him all authority in heaven and on earth." (Matt 28:18). Do we realize that Jesus had to be perfected here on earth? Or that there was no Man Jesus before the baby in Bethlehem? And that to receive the inheritance He had to "learn obedience" to God? The written Word declares that "Though He were a Son, He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him." - Heb 5:8-9

Without obedience, even though we may have been 'saved' from bondage (as Israel was in the Exodus), we will not be the recipient of the promised "eternal salvation" that comes, as Jesus taught, to those who "endure til the end."

God's wisdom and understanding to us all.


“For God has not given us a spirit of timidity, but of power and love and discipline. Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle and a teacher.”
2 Timothy 1:7-11 - NASB

It says right here that we are not saved by our works.
We do works because we have been saved; we don’t do works to get saved.

2 Cor. 6:17-18 was pulled out of context.
Here is the context
..what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, “ I will dwell in them and walk among them; And I will be their God, and they shall be My people . “ Therefore, come out from their midst and be separate,” says the Lord. “ And do not touch what is unclean ; And I will welcome you. “ And I will be a father to you, And you shall be sons and daughters to Me,” Says the Lord Almighty.
2 Corinthians 6:16-18 - NASB

The them that are being referred to are those who practiced unrighteousness! Context is everything.

You left out the word ‘therefore’and therefore never begins the context.
Why did you leave out verse 16, which begins the context? Verse 16 tells us who we are and verse 17 tells us who they are! Context is everything.

Jesus was Lord and Christ before He took on flesh.


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