WORTHY

[Michael]

Oh saints, let us not squabble over traditions of man, but let us lay hold of what the Scripture states and abide in that.
I agree with what Arsenios is saying about the vital importance of baptism.

Jesus clearly stated - "He who believes and is baptized will be saved." Mark 16:16
Sounds here like the baptism is needed for salvation. Yes, one can be 'saved' and begin the Journey perhaps, but for "eternal salvation" I fully believe that the Baptism Paul wrote about in Romans 6 is absolutely necessary; and of course True Repentance as well.

Remember in Peter's first message, after having received of the Spirit of Truth, he preached clearly -
“Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." - Acts 2:38
Here, both baptism and repentance are taught as necessary for the forgiveness of sins and receiving of the Spirit.

Oh, how we in the modern "Christian" religion have reduced the requirements of God and make His Word and commands "of none effect" by our traditions.

"For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ." - Gal 3:27

 

[Arsenios]

No they don't. None say that.
They say go make disciples of all nations.
We baptize those who come to faith as disciples.
You twist the passage and claim that we baptize first. If that is what you truly believe...go out on the street and start random baptisms. Sprinkle randomly and say "In the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit."
But...you won't do that. Why? I'm not sure. Perhaps it is because you know that random baptizing doesn't do anything. You have to share the gospel and point people toward Jesus. When they get faith and are adopted by God, then you baptize them.

You sound kinda bitter...

Discipling entails Baptism of those discipled,
and teaching them to observe all that Christ commanded...

It is pretty straight-forward...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

You sound kinda bitter...

Discipling entails Baptism of those discipled,
and teaching them to observe all that Christ commanded...

It is pretty straight-forward...


Arsenios

Those discipled are those who have come to faith.
Baptism does not save. It is not a means of grace.
The text does not say: "They all say to baptize all the nations..." You say that and thus distort scripture to fit your dogma.
So, if you admit that the disciples are already redeemed before baptism, we can find agreement. If you insist on the false teaching that baptism is a means of saving grace, we will not agree. Such a claim would fly in the face of God's word and turn grace into works...which is no grace at all.
I do get bitter with your false gospel, Arsenios. Your teaching comes from hell, not from God.

 

[Arsenios]

I do get bitter with your false gospel, Arsenios.
Your teaching comes from hell, not from God.

The Nations were idol-worshipping pagans...

Christ sent His Apostles for their conversion...

And He said to His 11/12:

πορευθεντες, which means:
Pursue the journey upon which you have entered (as My disciples)
Then He said:
μαθητευσατε παντα τα εθνη , which means:
Disciple all the Nations (Ethnics)
He then said, as His very next words:
βαπτιζοντες αυτους, which literally means:
Baptizing them...

Even in English this grammar is without difficulty...

Are you actually arguing that He sent them out to simply explain to them...
What had Spiritually already happened to them...

I mean, if so, where in the Bible does it say that??

Forgive me, my Brother - I do not mean to vex your spirit...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

This might prove fruitful to ask:

Is the Church the Body of Christ?

Is the Body of Christ Anthropic?

Or is it Theanthropic?


Arsenios

 

[Michael]

This might prove fruitful to ask:

Is the Church the Body of Christ?

Is the Body of Christ Anthropic?

Or is it Theanthropic?

Arsenios

Opening up another can of worms here!!

Let me put it this way... all in the churches are not the Church (capitol C), just as "all Israel are not Israel." (Rom 9:6) Election and predestination play a large part in this (not the way Calvin taught or some think today), and even then one must prove worthy of "their calling" as we've seen in the multitude of passages presented in this thread.

And truthfully, the Body of Christ (the Elect) is still largely anthropic still today. The Goal of God is to bring His Elect, those who will be "co-heirs" of Christ and inherit Creation, into complete Oneness with Him (Tabernacles) thereby becoming theanthropic in Eternity, ministering the Life of God to the saved nations on the earth.

Oh, I truly love the deep Truth of the Scripture and seeing how God's great plan & purpose will come to fruition. I want to be a part of it. I strive to "lay hold of what Christ has laid hold of me for" and be found faithful and worthy to receive the promises in that Day.

Oh Glory!

 

[MennoSota]

The Nations were idol-worshipping pagans...

Christ sent His Apostles for their conversion...

And He said to His 11/12:

πορευθεντες, which means:
Pursue the journey upon which you have entered (as My disciples)
Then He said:
μαθητευσατε παντα τα εθνη , which means:
Disciple all the Nations (Ethnics)
He then said, as His very next words:
βαπτιζοντες αυτους, which literally means:
Baptizing them...

Even in English this grammar is without difficulty...

Are you actually arguing that He sent them out to simply explain to them...
What had Spiritually already happened to them...

I mean, if so, where in the Bible does it say that??

Forgive me, my Brother - I do not mean to vex your spirit...


Arsenios

I'm saying what the text says.
Go to all the nations
Make disciples
Teaching them
Baptize them

The text does not say: Go baptize the nations.

 

[RichWh1]

I'm saying what the text says.
Go to all the nations
Make disciples
Teaching them
Baptize them

The text does not say: Go baptize the nations.

The only command given in that verse is ‘make disciples ‘ The others are peripheral actions the disciples would be doing.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MennoSota]

English Standard Version Matthew 28:18-20
And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them inthe name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Verse 18 is important so we know why the therefore is there for.
Because all authority is given to Jesus.
Go
Make disciples of all nations
Baptize the disciples in the name of the Trinity
Teach them to observe all Jesus commanded
Believe the promise that Jesus, the one who has all authority (that means Sovereign), is with all the disciples to the end.

I reject the teaching that Baptism is a means of receiving saving grace, as Arsenios teaches. Such teaching actually removes grace completely and replaces it with salvation by works.

 

[zecryphon_nomdiv]

English Standard Version Matthew 28:18-20
And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them inthe name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Verse 18 is important so we know why the therefore is there for.
Because all authority is given to Jesus.
Go
Make disciples of all nations
Baptize the disciples in the name of the Trinity
Teach them to observe all Jesus commanded
Believe the promise that Jesus, the one who has all authority (that means Sovereign), is with all the disciples to the end.

I reject the teaching that Baptism is a means of receiving saving grace, as Arsenios teaches. Such teaching actually removes grace completely and replaces it with salvation by works.

Teaching that Baptism is a means of grace through which God delivers faith and forgiveness of sins to the Christian does not remove grace and replace it with works. You remove God's grace and replace it with your works when you view Baptism as totally symbolic and something you do for God, not as something God does for you.

You're the one rejecting the grace of God. He comes to us through His Word and the water in Baptism to forgive sins, and deliver faith
People who believe as you do say, "No! It's just a symbol that I use to show YOU how good and obedient I am." That is when God's grace is removed and replaced by works.

 

[MennoSota]

Teaching that Baptism is a means of grace through which God delivers faith and forgiveness of sins to the Christian does not remove grace and replace it with works. You remove God's grace and replace it with your works when you view Baptism as totally symbolic and something you do for God, not as something God does for you.

You're the one rejecting the grace of God. He comes to us through His Word and the water in Baptism to forgive sins, and deliver faith
People who believe as you do say, "No! It's just a symbol that I use to show YOU how good and obedient I am." That is when God's grace is removed and replaced by works.

I don't follow your logic.
Since water baptism is symbolic, there is no grace in it. There is a symbolism of the gracious Spirit baptism that comes with God's gracious adoption.
Water Baptism is an obedience of God's command. It is no means of forcing God's grace upon an individual. God is not obligated to do anything in water baptism.
Teaching that God is obligated to extend grace via water baptism or communion is teaching something not found in the Bible, but surely found in your catechism.

 

[Michael]

Eternal Salvation comes only to those who are "obedient."

When such debates arise, it is always best to set aside the man-made traditions of the churches and lay hold of what Jesus and the Scripture declares.

Let's take a look at this passage in Hebrews -

"So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him:

“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.”

6 As He also says in another place:

“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek”;

7 who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, 8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, 10 called by God as High Priest “according to the order of Melchizedek,” 11 of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.

12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." - Heb 5:5-15

Several truths appear in this passage which are quite contrary to many 'statements of faith' or 'traditions of man' concerning "salvation", "obedience" and even the Man Jesus.

Jesus "learned obedience" and was "perfected" here on the earth. Meaning He wasn't prior to this time in history. How many even realize that this is in the Bible? And that it is Truth? Jesus "became" something He had not been before. He had to be tested and tried and prove Himself faithful so that He could receive "all authority in heaven and on earth" (Matt 28:18) and be "made Lord and Christ." (Acts 2:36)

The "getting saved" which is where we all are right now, is an opportunity to enter into the promises of God. Most today mistakenly preach that being "saved" means we've made it, and will be in heaven when we die and receive all the promises of God. To accept such a doctrine we must ignore most of the New Testament. I know some reading this are screaming at their screens right now reading this, but know this... I didn't say these things, Jesus did.

More & more, the Recipe analogy is coming to play. Think I'll be doing a video teaching on that soon...

Dear saints, again, I'm not here to rebuke anyone, I'm here to speak "as the oracle of God" and proclaim what the Lord Himself has given me to share.

"Let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching." - Heb 10:24-25

Amen. Let us be found "walking in a manner worthy of our calling" today.
Peace & Blessings to all.
:ange06:

 

[Arsenios]

Opening up another can of worms here!!

What did Christ SAY to Saul on the Road to Damascus? Remember that Saul had been imprisoning and seeing to the stoning of Christians - Proto-Martyr Stephan being the first... And Christ appears to Saul on the Road and blinds him to the ground, and He then asks Saul about his persecution of Christians, right??

WRONG!!

Instead He asks:

"Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou ME?"

But all ol' Saul had done was persecute some Christians, right?

WRONG!!

He was persecuting Christ Himself in His Body, the Church...

This is why Paul rejoices in his sufferings for the Church...

For it is the Body of Christ...

Of Christ Who is Her Head...

All Paul's words...

Tom, Richard and Carl believing the Bible does not make them Christ's Body...

For we are Baptized into Christ
BY the Body of Christ
Who is the Head
of His Own Body...

The Ekklesia...


Arsenios

Let me put it this way... all in the churches are not the Church (capitol C), just as "all Israel are not Israel." (Rom 9:6) Election and predestination play a large part in this (not the way Calvin taught or some think today), and even then one must prove worthy of "their calling" as we've seen in the multitude of passages presented in this thread.

And truthfully, the Body of Christ (the Elect) is still largely anthropic still today. The Goal of God is to bring His Elect, those who will be "co-heirs" of Christ and inherit Creation, into complete Oneness with Him (Tabernacles) thereby becoming theanthropic in Eternity, ministering the Life of God to the saved nations on the earth.

Oh, I truly love the deep Truth of the Scripture and seeing how God's great plan & purpose will come to fruition. I want to be a part of it. I strive to "lay hold of what Christ has laid hold of me for" and be found faithful and worthy to receive the promises in that Day.

Oh Glory!

The Apostolic Churches are the Body of Christ...

The rest of the claimants have their claims privately with God...

I pray that they are also included...

But we KNOW that Christ Commissioned His Apostles to disciple ALL the Nations, Baptizing them and Instructing them...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Since water baptism is symbolic, there is no grace in it. There is a symbolism of the gracious Spirit baptism that comes with God's gracious adoption.
Water Baptism is an obedience of God's command. It is no means of forcing God's grace upon an individual. God is not obligated to do anything in water baptism.
Teaching that God is obligated to extend grace via water baptism or communion is teaching something not found in the Bible, but surely found in your catechism.

Baptism is God-Commanded for ALL the Nations through the Apostles...
It is God Himself Baptizing...
Paul himself rebuked the Corinthians...
Thinking they were baptized into men...
That Baptism was a human event...
Receiving a human benefit...

Your claim
that there is no Grace
in God-Commanded Baptism
has neither Truth nor Grace...

ONLY Christ CAN Baptize anyone INTO Christ...
No mere anthropod CAN claim authority over Christ...
Yet BY Christ's Commandment...
Member of His Body DO Baptize men into Christ...


Arsenios

 

[Michael]

What did Christ SAY to Saul on the Road to Damascus? Remember that Saul had been imprisoning and seeing to the stoning of Christians - Proto-Martyr Stephan being the first... And Christ appears to Saul on the Road and blinds him to the ground, and He then asks Saul about his persecution of Christians, right??

WRONG!!

Instead He asks:

"Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou ME?"

But all ol' Saul had done was persecute some Christians, right?

WRONG!!

He was persecuting Christ Himself in His Body, the Church...

This is why Paul rejoices in his sufferings for the Church...

For it is the Body of Christ...

Of Christ Who is Her Head...

All Paul's words...

Tom, Richard and Carl believing the Bible does not make them Christ's Body...

For we are Baptized into Christ
BY the Body of Christ
Who is the Head
of His Own Body...

The Ekklesia...


Arsenios



The Apostolic Churches are the Body of Christ...

The rest of the claimants have their claims privately with God...

I pray that they are also included...

But we KNOW that Christ Commissioned His Apostles to disciple ALL the Nations, Baptizing them and Instructing them...

Arsenios

Man, I'd like to sit one day with you and discuss these things with our Bibles open and the Holy Spirit in our midst.
I've done that several times over the years: met folks in person that I had met on the internet that had questions about things I've shared. In my travels around this nation, I've had fellowship with the saints from Washington to Indiana to PA; from SoCal (where I live) to Kansas, to Texas. All folks like you, whom I had come in contact with in a Bible Study Group or Christian Forum online.

I do believe that we would probably agree on many things; as well as glean from one another even deeper Truth as we conversed about the thing that God is showing us and leading us into as we submit to Him and partake of the substance of Christ.

Peace & Blessings to you, brother, as you walk with Jesus.
Michael

 

[MennoSota]

Baptism is God-Commanded for ALL the Nations through the Apostles...
It is God Himself Baptizing...
Paul himself rebuked the Corinthians...
Thinking they were baptized into men...
That Baptism was a human event...
Receiving a human benefit...

Your claim
that there is no Grace
in God-Commanded Baptism
has neither Truth nor Grace...

ONLY Christ CAN Baptize anyone INTO Christ...
No mere anthropod CAN claim authority over Christ...
Yet BY Christ's Commandment...
Member of His Body DO Baptize men into Christ...


Arsenios

No...it isn't.

 

[zecryphon_nomdiv]

I don't follow your logic.
Since water baptism is symbolic, there is no grace in it. There is a symbolism of the gracious Spirit baptism that comes with God's gracious adoption.
Water Baptism is an obedience of God's command. It is no means of forcing God's grace upon an individual. God is not obligated to do anything in water baptism.
Teaching that God is obligated to extend grace via water baptism or communion is teaching something not found in the Bible, but surely found in your catechism.

You're not following the logic because of what you believe Baptism to be. You think it's symbolic, which is what is throwing off your whole understanding. Scripture even says that Baptism forgives sins and delivers the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:38-39 (ESV)

38) And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39) For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”

As long as you hold to the typical Protestant view of Baptism, you will never understand how it is a means of grace from God to the Christian. It's also not something that will be comprehended in an online forum, either.

 

[MennoSota]

You're not following the logic because of what you believe Baptism to be. You think it's symbolic, which is what is throwing off your whole understanding. Scripture even says that Baptism forgives sins.

Acts 2:38-39 (ESV)

38) And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39) For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”

As long as you hold to the typical Protestant view of Baptism, you will never understand how it is a means of grace from God to the Christian. It's also not something that will be comprehended in an online forum, either.

Peter never says baptism saves in that passage. In fact, in his letter he goes out of his way to make sure people don't make that mistake.
As long as you teach baptism as a means of salvation, you will be inadvertently sending thousands upon thousands to hell with them being clueless as to their depraved state.
Baptism never grants grace. It never saves. It always is done to express the spiritual act that the Holy Spirit did, previously, in immersing the newly adopted child into Christ. It is a testimony to the unredeemed world that the repentant rebel has been reconciled with God. It is not a magical reconciler itself.

 

[zecryphon_nomdiv]

"Peter never says baptism saves in that passage. In fact, in his letter he goes out of his way to make sure people don't make that mistake."

Acts 2:38 says: "And Peter said to them repent and be Baptized for the forgiveness of your sins." So, yes Peter does say that and is also speaking what God told him to speak.

"As long as you teach baptism as a means of salvation, you will be inadvertently sending thousands upon thousands to hell with them being clueless as to their depraved state."

Where does Scripture come from? Also, I don't send anyone to Hell, so try again. The Holy Spirit convicta people of their sin and the Law of God shows people their depraved state. You put way too much into the hands of man.

"Baptism never grants grace. It never saves. It always is done to express the spiritual act that the Holy Spirit did, previously, in immersing the newly adopted child into Christ. It is a testimony to the unredeemed world that the repentant rebel has been reconciled with God. It is not a magical reconciler itself."

God grants grace through the Sacraments of which, Baptism is one. The problem Protestants have is that they want to take an act of God and split it into two events. You think there are two baptisms, one of water and one of Spirit. Baptism is water and Spirit joined together mysteriously by God's Word. But your sinful nature and your reason can't comprehend how that is possible, so instead of believing what is plainly taught and written you invent a doctrine of the devil that you can understand and then insist is true. You've bought into a lie. I pray God will guide you out of this as he did for me and millions of others.

 

[MennoSota]

God grants grace through the Sacraments of which, Baptism is one.

No, he doesn't. That's your dogma is false and based on tradition with no biblical support.