WORTHY

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Man is not worthy to inherit the kingdom of God unless He is covered by the blood of Christ's righteousness, by grace through faith. It is by Christ's worth that we get to be with God for all eternity, those who believe. We can't get there by our efforts.
 

zecryphon_nomdiv

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You said he claims these actions EARN Salvation...

You made this claim...

Man up and back it up...

Where does he say God is obligated to Save us because of what we do?

Until you show that, you are not being truthful...


Arsenios
Here is what I actually said:

"We do works to show God we love Him and to show our neighbor we love them. What's being taught by Michael is to do works so God will see you as deserving of being rewarded. He teaches you to look out for yourself, so you can get what is coming to you. Do what He says Scripture teaches and Jesus will say to you "depart from me, I never knew you."

I never once said what the reward was, what he says we are to work for. But please, show me where I "made this claim."
 
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Arsenios

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Here is what I actually said:

"We do works to show God we love Him and to show our neighbor we love them. What's being taught by Michael is to do works so God will see you as deserving of being rewarded. He teaches you to look out for yourself, so you can get what is coming to you. Do what He says Scripture teaches and Jesus will say to you "depart from me, I never knew you."

I never once said what the reward was, what he says we are to work for. But please, show me where I "made this claim."

Very good post, Zek...

Now do for him what you are demanding me to do for you...

You're on the right track!


Arsenios
 

Michael

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"Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. 4 You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
6 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”
- Rev 3:2-6 NKJV

"Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.”
8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints."
- Rev 19:7-8 NKJV

"Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure." - 1John 3:1-3 NKJV

Amen. I love how the Scripture defines itself.

Are we "watching"?

Are we walking in True "repentance" (actually ceasing from our sins)?

Are our acts "righteous" before God?

Are we "purifying ourselves"?

Will Jesus count us "worthy" in that Day?

Do we "believe" what Jesus said?

Can we "hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches", to us reading this Word?
 

zecryphon_nomdiv

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Very good post, Zek...

Now do for him what you are demanding me to do for you...

You're on the right track!


Arsenios
No. He knows where I stand and anything I've said about him, I've also said to him. You said I made a claim that I didn't make, and when asked to produce proof of this alleged claim, you can't.
 

Michael

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What those found Worthy stand to inherit

Have we ever wondered why the Scripture exhorts us to "walk worthy" of our calling and the Kingdom?
Truly there is an inheritance that awaits those who overcome and remain faithful. Below is a brief portion of an essay in which we look at what God has in store for His Elect who will walk with Christ Jesus in that Day, for "they are worthy."



God’s gift to us of salvation, grace & the opportunity for Eternal Life has been well taught over the centuries; but here I want to look at the gift that Father God has given to His Son, the Man Jesus, and to those who become One with Jesus in Christ.3 The gift of dominion - the right to restore Life to creation and rule over all the works of God’s hands!
Amen.


Even from a strictly human perspective, I believe all parents reading this want the best for our children; to leave them a lasting inheritance. On a personal level, I want to give to my son Joshua something that he will appreciate, something that will bless my heart to grant him. Oh, to give him that which would last for eternity!

That is our Heavenly Fathers heart. To impart to His begotten, beginning with Jesus, the best He can offer. In the Old Testament Book of Psalms, we find God speaking to His Son long before He came to this earth as a physical being, a baby born of woman.


ask.jpg

“I will declare the decree:

The Lord has said to Me,
‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
8 Ask of Me, and I will give You
The nations for Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth for Your possession."

- Psalm 2:7-8 NKJV

Many generations later, after His atoning sacrifice, death and Resurrection, Jesus would declare to His disciples – “All authority (all power of absolute rule) in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.”
– Matt 28:18 AMP

“The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand.” – John 3:35 NASB

God’s promise became reality. All has been given over to Jesus. He IS in control.
And yet… we still see chaos & trouble everywhere. Man & creation appear to be in bondage still. Many struggle with hopelessness & disillusionment. Illness & death are still among us.

Something further needs to take place.

In the Revelation to John, the Lord Jesus Himself speaks these incredible words concerning those physical human beings who truly walked worthy of their calling to be conformed into the image of God’s Son.

“He who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end,
to him I will give power over the nations.”

– Rev 2:26 NKJV

To those who endure with Christ through the trials, He has promised - “Just as My Father conferred on Me Kingly authority, so also do I confer it on you.” (Luke 22:29 Mounce)

Jesus is waiting for His counterpart, His body, to be perfected. Together, the physical Christ, Head and body will rule over creation, and bring righteousness, peace and joy to the nations. Wickedness will be dealt with. Then will there be order instead of chaos, gladness instead of hopelessness, Life instead of death.

Friends this is what gives me great hope! These promises are what helps me endure through the trials of life and lifts me from despair when I see the horrors of what sin has done to mankind. There will be a Day of restoration of all things back to the original design and purpose of the Lord God Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth!


The full article, which honestly barely scratches the surface of God's great plan & purpose, can be found here -

http://to-him-who-overcomes.com/greatest-gift


Peace & Blessings to all,
Michael
 

Arsenios

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You said I made a claim that I didn't make, and when asked to produce proof of this alleged claim, you can't.

Exactly so, and I am asking you to do the same about him for me...

Don't give up!

You are on the right track!


Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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In the Revelation to John, the Lord Jesus Himself speaks these incredible words
concerning those physical human beings who truly walked worthy of their calling
to be conformed into the image of God’s Son.

“He who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end,
to him I will give power over the nations.”

– Rev 2:26 NKJV

Correct English translation here is: "He who is overcoming and keeping My works until the end,..." etc

Present tense participles are in the ongoing present tense, carrying the meaning of:

"He who keeps on overcoming..."


Arsenios
 

zecryphon_nomdiv

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Exactly so, and I am asking you to do the same about him for me...

Don't give up!

You are on the right track!


Arsenios
You want me to get him to affirm or deny a claim I never made about him? Once again, no, I'm not doing that. It makes no sense to do that since I never claimed what you erroneously said I did. So now, you say you're sorry for claiming I did something I didn't do or you stop posting to me. This is harassment, and it ends now.
 

Michael

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Correct English translation here is: "He who is overcoming and keeping My works until the end,..." etc

Present tense participles are in the ongoing present tense, carrying the meaning of:

"He who keeps on overcoming..."

Arsenios


Exactly! You are correct sir.
I believe the Williams New Testament translation brings that out very accurately; and in many other places as well. This Journey of ours is from "glory to glory" and we only come to maturity as we partake daily of the Bread of Life. It is a continual ongoing process, which sadly many abort along the way and will not be counted among "those who overcome" in that Day. We must keep our "hand on the plow" to the very end if we are to receive of the inheritance. It is indeed a "narrow Way."

The New Revised Standard Version puts it this way -

"To everyone who conquers and continues to do My works to the end,
I will give authority over the nations;
27 to rule (shepherd) them with an iron rod."

- Rev 2:26-27 NRSV

Amen. Oh there is so much more to the plan & purpose of God than the churches at large have known. But God is unveiling it in our day and there are those who "have ears to hear." May we always be among them.

“Ask and keep on asking and it will be given to you; seek and keep on seeking and you will find; knock and keep on knocking and the door will be opened to you." - Matt 7:7 AMP
 

Arsenios

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You want me to get him to affirm or deny a claim I never made about him?

Actually, the one you did make earlier in this thread - I simply asked if he affirmed it...

Once again, no, I'm not doing that.

Do you remember telling everyone what he thinks and teaches, pointing your finger at him in accusation?

It makes no sense to do that since I never claimed what you erroneously said I did.

I summarized what you said, just like you summarized what he said...
I was erroneous about you just like you were erroneous about him...

I embraced your correction of me...
You won't consider being corrected by Michael by asking him if he said what you said he said...

So now, you say you're sorry for claiming I did something I didn't do

Forgive me!

or you stop posting to me.

Don't you want to talk it through?

This is harassment, and it ends now.

Forgive me for giving you cause to feel harrassed...

I was simply mirroring with you what I saw you doing with Michael...

Were you harassing Michael for his views with which you disagree?


Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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Exactly! You are correct sir.
I believe the Williams New Testament translation brings that out very accurately; and in many other places as well. This Journey of ours is from "glory to glory" and we only come to maturity as we partake daily of the Bread of Life. It is a continual ongoing process, which sadly many abort along the way and will not be counted among "those who overcome" in that Day. We must keep our "hand on the plow" to the very end if we are to receive of the inheritance. It is indeed a "narrow Way."

The New Revised Standard Version puts it this way -

"To everyone who conquers and continues to do My works to the end,
I will give authority over the nations;
27 to rule (shepherd) them with an iron rod."

- Rev 2:26-27 NRSV

Amen. Oh there is so much more to the plan & purpose of God than the churches at large have known. But God is unveiling it in our day and there are those who "have ears to hear." May we always be among them.

“Ask and keep on asking and it will be given to you; seek and keep on seeking and you will find; knock and keep on knocking and the door will be opened to you." - Matt 7:7 AMP

How is this Biblical understanding discipled?


Arsenios
 

zecryphon_nomdiv

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Arsenios, one truth you fail to grasp is that I'm not wrong about what he teaches. He teaches works so he will be rewarded, but to show God he loves God or lives his neighbor, so he will be rewarded.

Since you have shown that you will not look for this truth on your own, I've pulled a few examples for you. I've also told you exactly where you came find these, if you care to read more on this matter.

From The GOAL post # 7: "To rely solely 'upon what Jesus has done' will render us a "wicked, lazy servant" who wasted their talents; and their end is "outer darkness." These are not my words, but the very Word and Truth of our Lord and Savior."

From The Goal post # 40: "

"Forgiveness of sins is for those outside the church. Once we've been saved and enlightened, and the Spirit begins to show us our shortcomings, we must repent of them and obey the commands of God given through Jesus Christ.

There is no 'eternal state of forgiveness' that we enter into. As Peter wrote, we must DO the things commanded and ADD to our faith. If we don't we've forgotten that we were forgiven of our "past sins." Paul says grace will not cover continued sin, and the writer of Hebrews warns that willful known sins we commit after we have been 'saved' will bring only destruction upon us.

Modern preaching has made it seem as though God is begging us to 'accept His Son', so He can forgive us eternally, somehow not see our sins anymore, and then bring us into the spirit realm when we die, even if we have not been obedient.

And this obedience is to the commandments of Christ. “If you love Me, keep My commandments." (John 14:15). And for the record, there is no command to 'accept Christ' as I have heard preached, which is not Bible. No, the commandments are the Eternal Moral Law of God, the "Law of the Spirit of Life" that we must live by if we are to be truly "conformed to the image of the Son" and be raised to "sit with Him on His Throne" in that Day to govern the nations of the earth.

Again... that IS the GOAL! To become "one with Christ Jesus as He is One with the Father." (John 17:21)

Oh glory! May we let no man "steal our crown" and rob us of our inheritance by the preaching of "another gospel" that prevents the necessary repentance, obedience and transformation that the Scripture teaches and sets forth as the great plan & purpose of God.

Peace & Blessings to all!"

From The GOAL post # 43: "Oh Yes indeed, the GOAL set before the Elect is to be actually "conformed in to the image of the Son of God." Ain't gonna happen if we allow sin to remain in our lives and somehow expect Jesus to repent for us."

From WORTHY post # 16: "Many hear from the pulpits today that we have all the promises of God because of what Jesus has done. No. Jesus did HIS part, we must do OURS if we are to become His "co-heirs" of Creation and inherit the nations.

And sadly, so many reject Jesus' teaching on overcoming, and risk missing out on their inheritance. Even if we must walk alone, we must abide by what the Word says and not man."

From WORTHY post # 16: You told this lie and made insinuations that are not Christ-like. "You said he claims these actions EARN Salvation...

You made this claim...

Man up and back it up...

Where does he say God is obligated to Save us because of what we do?

Until you show that, you are not being truthful..."

Did you ask me if this is what I believed or even did? No. You drew conclusions, erroneous as they were, based upon what you read, the same as I've done. Michael also keeps stating that "there are people in this for who believe they can sin all they want and not need to repent, because Jesus did it all." No one has said that, but you're not taking issue with that. You're also not chasing after Michael to affirm with us that we actually teach what he claims we believe. You're playing favorites.

Add far as you're concerned, Michael can do no wrong and I can do no right, even though no one else is required to affirm with anyone else what they actually believe. So you will stop posting to me as you have not said you're sorry for what you've done, you made accusations before you had all the facts. You insinuated I wasn't a man if I didn't jump through your hoops to your satisfaction. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and believe you've repented. If you wish to have me respond to anything you write, it will be when I decide to let you. When you've shown that you actually are sorry and are capable of being civil, instead of his you've behaved in this exchange.
 
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psalms 91

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Taken out of context, all things by rightly dividing the Word. Yes we are saved and then our journey begins as Paul and the whole New testament says. We are not to continue in sin we are to seek to become one with Christ. We are to repent, we are to grow, this is all in the Word and are things a Christian must do in order to be in Christ. Christy in us is just the beginning. I know you wont accept this but lets not misrepresent what the bible actually says either. I do not believe in works for salvation any more than Michael does but i do believe the Word concerning our spiritual growth and what we need to do as Christians
 

zecryphon_nomdiv

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Taken out of context, all things by rightly dividing the Word. Yes we are saved and then our journey begins as Paul and the whole New testament says. We are not to continue in sin we are to seek to become one with Christ. We are to repent, we are to grow, this is all in the Word and are things a Christian must do in order to be in Christ. Christy in us is just the beginning. I know you wont accept this but lets not misrepresent what the bible actually says either. I do not believe in works for salvation any more than Michael does but i do believe the Word concerning our spiritual growth and what we need to do as Christians
No one has said we are to continue in sin!!! When will you people get this?!!
 

Michael

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How is this Biblical understanding discipled?

Arsenios

I have found the answer in the Psalm -

"To you, O Lord, I lift up my soul.
2 O my God, in you I trust;

do not let me be put to shame;
do not let my enemies exult over me.
3 Do not let those who wait for you be put to shame;
let them be ashamed who are wantonly treacherous.

4 Make me to know your ways, O Lord;
teach me your paths.
5 Lead me in your truth, and teach me,
for you are the God of my salvation;
for you I wait all day long.


6 Be mindful of your mercy, O Lord, and of your steadfast love,
for they have been from of old.
7 Do not remember the sins of my youth or my transgressions;
according to your steadfast love remember me,
for your goodness’ sake, O Lord!

8 Good and upright is the Lord;
therefore he instructs sinners in the way.
9 He leads the humble in what is right,
and teaches the humble his way.
10 All the paths of the Lord are steadfast love and faithfulness,
for those who keep his covenant and his decrees.


11 For your name’s sake, O Lord,
pardon my guilt, for it is great.
12 Who are they that fear the Lord?
He will teach them the way that they should choose."

- Psalm 25:1-12 NRSV

Truth is being unveiled in our day. God is moving us toward Tabernacles, while much of the church chooses to remain at Pentecost, or even back at Passover.

"Indeed, the Lord God does nothing
without revealing His counsel
to His servants the prophets."

- Amos 3:7

If we truly "humble ourselves" and "fear the Lord", He has promised to reveal His counsel, His plan & purpose to "those who have an ear to hear."
The promised Holy Spirit, whom Jesus said would come to "guide us into all Truth" (John 16:13) comes only to those who are obedient to God. (Acts 5:32)

I believe this with all my being. It is God's Word. And I am ever striving to hear His voice and know His will.

The words of Paul in stating his goal have been imprinted on my mind -

"What things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. 16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind."

- Phil 3:7-16 NKJV

This is the mark of a True disciple of our Lord Jesus Christ, one who humbly surrenders and picks up their cross and follows Jesus in the Way. It is the mind-set of one who desires to one Day be called a "Christian" by the Father.
Amen.

"whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple." - Luke 14:27
 

MennoSota

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No one has said we are to continue in sin!!! When will you people get this?!!
The elect, adopted child of God, will not continue in sin. It would be utterly ludicrous that the child would remain in rebellion to his adopted Father.
Compare the old life as an abandoned orphan in a nation of anarchist rebels to living as a child of the King in the Kingdom of God. The adopted child receives the inheritance of the King and all its benefits. No adopted child would ever go back to the vile, abandoned life, of being orphaned. It just won't happen.
However, what we have is a lot of abandoned orphans, who have never been chosen for adoption, running around and claiming they are adopted when they aren't. They desperately try to imitate the truly adopted child and mimic their life. Yet, they have no inheritance or resource to live. They merely attempt to imitate and mimic with the hope that their illusion will be good enough. These orphans beat themselves up trying a self-righteous behavior modification program and then tell themselves that they are adopted, even though God never adopted them. Eventually, since they can never hit the mark on their own, they give up trying and go back to their rebellious squalor. Like a dog returning to its vomit, they die in sin.
It is a sure bet that there are people posting in the CH who are imitating and mimicking in hopes of being good enough. Unless God, by His merciful grace, chooses to adopt them...they will revert back to their natural state of abandonment. It is sad to watch and I wish they were not blind to their true position. May God remove their blindness.
As for the elect, they will be made righteous and be sanctified by the gracious work of God. God will refine them and lead them to repentance. They will faithfully confess their sins and receive their Father's forgiveness. It is a joy to see and a joy to be a participant with the elect.
 

Arsenios

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Did you ask me if this is what I believed or even did?

No...

No. You drew conclusions, erroneous as they were, based upon what you read, the same as I've done.

Thank-you - That was the point of the exercise...

Michael also keeps stating that "there are people in this for who believe they can sin all they want and not need to repent, because Jesus did it all." No one has said that, but you're not taking issue with that. You're also not chasing after Michael to affirm with us that we actually teach what he claims we believe. You're playing favorites.

Of course!

And far as you're concerned, Michael can do no wrong and I can do no right.

So are you wanting to start a new cycle of misrepresentation?

Michael can do much wrong! :)

'Tis a common pattern -
Someone types something...
And it means something else to someone else...
And that someone gets accused of saying something else by someone else...
And it is all downhill from there...


Thank-you for coming around...
Forgive me for yanking your chain...
You now have a 10 yank chain credit with me!

Synergist Theology, which is Orthodox, takes a lot of hits here...
By being accused of trying to EARN Salvation by our fallen human efforts...

When nothing can be further from the truth...


Arsenios
 
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zecryphon_nomdiv

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No...



Thank-you - That was the point of the exercise...



Of course!



So are you wanting to start a new cycle of misrepresentation?

Michael can do much wrong! :)

'Tis a common pattern -
Someone types something...
And it means something else to someone else...
And that someone gets accused of saying something else by someone else...
And it is all downhill from there...


Thank-you for coming around...
Forgive me for yanking your chain...
You now have a 10 yank chain credit with me!

Synergist Theology, which is Orthodox, takes a lot of hits here...
By being accused of trying to EARN Salvation by our fallen human efforts...

When nothing can be further from the truth...


Arsenios
I've told you not to post to me. Yet here you are again posting to me. You're now blocked.
 
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