The Simple Original Apostolic Gospel

Bluezone777

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I think you all fail to realize that Adam and Eve lived in a perfect world and yet still brought sin into it by breaking the only law they had to obey. What makes you think it could have gone any other way? Do you all not think the plan God had didn't factor in the introduction of sin by Adam and Eve if anything I suspect it counted on it. I am sure He didn't enjoy any of what would come to pass through sin but knew it had to come to pass for His plan to come to fruition.
 

Arsenios

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I think you all fail to realize that Adam and Eve lived in a perfect world and yet still brought sin into it by breaking the only law they had to obey. What makes you think it could have gone any other way? Do you all not think the plan God had didn't factor in the introduction of sin by Adam and Eve if anything I suspect it counted on it. I am sure He didn't enjoy any of what would come to pass through sin but knew it had to come to pass for His plan to come to fruition.
It did go the other way, and God did plan that it would...

The exercise is to show that God's Plan for His Creation did not depend on Adam sinning...

At the fullness of time, Christ incarnated to join man to God - Either way...

And of course He know our future, because He IS our Future...


Arsenios
 

Lämmchen

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It did go the other way, and God did plan that it would...

The exercise is to show that God's Plan for His Creation did not depend on Adam sinning...

At the fullness of time, Christ incarnated to join man to God - Either way...

And of course He know our future, because He IS our Future...


Arsenios
I think "depend" is not the word most people would use but God foresaw what would happen and had a plan in place because of it.
 

Arsenios

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I think "depend" is not the word most people would use but God foresaw what would happen and had a plan in place because of it.
You are, as so often, right - God knows from the end the beginning, and vice-versa...

The creation of man was not done in a vacuum, but in the context of the day and night at the beginning of Creation...
The forbidden Tree was in the heart of the Garden...
In a way we were an invitation to the devil to repent from his evils and return to God...
But now, in these last days, there is only malice and evils in him...

By deception through the Woman unto Adam he induced Adam to turn from God...
This one turning away opened the cosmos to death...
Which the devil injected into us all...
And upon which all have sinned...

Arsenios
 

Lämmchen

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You are, as so often, right - God knows from the end the beginning, and vice-versa...

The creation of man was not done in a vacuum, but in the context of the day and night at the beginning of Creation...
The forbidden Tree was in the heart of the Garden...
In a way we were an invitation to the devil to repent from his evils and return to God...
But now, in these last days, there is only malice and evils in him...

By deception through the Woman unto Adam he induced Adam to turn from God...
This one turning away opened the cosmos to death...
Which the devil injected into us all...
And upon which all have sinned...

Arsenios
Is there a scriptural source indicating that the devil COULD repent?
 

ImaginaryDay2

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Sure, but sometimes considering hypothetical questions can help clarify the structure of belief. Unless the EO have doctrines I don't know about, there's no official answer to the question of whether Christ would have come anyway. But thinking about the question might help us think about the purpose of Christ.

Now, clearly he wouldn't have been crucified without sin, since people without sin would certainly never crucify the Son of God. But might he have come anyway? That depends upon whether he had purposes other than dying, and whether those would apply even without sin.
That's an interesting consideration. Mohamed also had purposes for coming to this earth other than dying, but he was one with Sin. He called people to follow the god that he know, and now has many followers, even though his god is a false one. The Christian Gospel (in one respect) relies on the fact that the sinless Son of God WAS without sin, LIVED a sinless life, DIED a sinless death, and rose again. Without that, many things are called into question
 

Arsenios

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Is there a scriptural source indicating that the devil COULD repent?
It is somewhat built in to the fact that God created Adam and placed him in the Garden with the forbidden tree in the center of the Garden with the warning and that the devil had access to Adam... Why would God do such a thing if not to through jealousy invite Satan to change his ways... He did much the same with Israel, trying to provoke her through jealousy towards Christians, to turn to Him, but she would not, just as she had not, that He should heal them...

But no, I know of no scripture that says he could, or could not, repent...

There are some interesting theologoumena on the topic, however...


Arsenios
 

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If this were true, it would mean all this vast, vast universe all the million million million million cubic lightyears with all the galaxies of thousands of millions of stars and the planets and other bodies going around them, have no future, because the real reality that will go on is outside of those dimensions of the universe with what was made to accommodate us in that. I don't know how I can swallow that. We are included in what creation groans for, it is restoral to what this creation was made to be.
I admit we aren't certain of the future, but most cosmological models lead to collapse of the physical universe in one way or the other. Possibly even leading to new ones, but no physical beings would survive the transition.
Perhaps the new heavens and new earth imply a change so this process no longer happens.
Most cosmological models show that? If the uncertainty of a process of proton decay, or contraction of the universe after the expansion, is assumed, there would be collapse of the physical universe, that no physical beings would survive. But a process of proton decay is not really known, and the apparent expansion shows no sign of stopping for contraction to happen. And a contracting universe would have no known mechanism for a new universe to rebound from it, there wouldn't be the elasticity at all. There is nothing known for a certainty of collapse of the physical universe being possible.

To trust that God provides the universe, and also provides for our eternity, is not very compatible with the thinking that this universe must come to an end, even with another made that would somehow be eternal for us when God would not have that for this one in which God made creation in perfection, and with it told for us, as if we need to be told, all creation groans, waiting for the revealing of the redemption, because of him who subjected it in hope.
 

ImaginaryDay2

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Is there a scriptural source indicating that the devil COULD repent?
I'd be interested to see scripture both ways - that Satan coud or could not. The Angels, as created beings, show some agency to follow the commands of God:

Mat. 26:53 said:
...Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?
 

hedrick

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Most cosmological models show that? If the uncertainty of a process of proton decay, or contraction of the universe after the expansion, is assumed, there would be collapse of the physical universe, that no physical beings would survive. But a process of proton decay is not really known, and the apparent expansion shows no sign of stopping for contraction to happen. And a contracting universe would have no known mechanism for a new universe to rebound from it, there wouldn't be the elasticity at all. There is nothing known for a certainty of collapse of the physical universe being possible.

To trust that God provides the universe, and also provides for our eternity, is not very compatible with the thinking that this universe must come to an end, even with another made that would somehow be eternal for us when God would not have that for this one in which God made creation in perfection, and with it told for us, as if we need to be told, all creation groans, waiting for the revealing of the redemption, because of him who subjected it in hope.
The most likely outcome of continuing expansion is the Big Chill of heat death, both of which I included under collapse.
 

Lämmchen

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I'd be interested to see scripture both ways - that Satan coud or could not. The Angels, as created beings, show some agency to follow the commands of God:
Repentance is toward God in faith for salvation. Sin must be atoned for and Jesus did not die on the cross for the angels or Satan. You've seen the ending already in Revelation of what happens to Satan and his fallen angels. Do you still need scriptural references?
 

ImaginaryDay2

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Of course scripture shows that Satan DID not - according to the will of God. Revelation bears that out. But I didn't ask if he DID not, but if he "could or could not". If satan had the will to rebel, COULD he (not DID he) have had the will to repent of his deeds?

And it's not about if I "still need scriptural references". I was asking an honest question in hopes of some discussion.
 

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Of course scripture shows that Satan DID not - according to the will of God. Revelation bears that out. But I didn't ask if he DID not, but if he "could or could not". If satan had the will to rebel, COULD he (not DID he) have had the will to repent of his deeds?

And it's not about if I "still need scriptural references". I was asking an honest question in hopes of some discussion.
Repentance is unto Salvation. God never revealed in the holy scriptures any plan for Satan and the fallen angels. He never even suggests that atonement for their sin against Him could happen. So, no, repentance by Satan or his angels could not happen.
 

ImaginaryDay2

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Repentance is unto Salvation. God never revealed in the holy scriptures any plan for Satan and the fallen angels. He never even suggests that atonement for their sin against Him could happen. So, no, repentance by Satan or his angels could not happen.
Thank you
 

FredVB

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Most cosmological models show that? If the uncertainty of a process of proton decay, or contraction of the universe after the expansion, is assumed, there would be collapse of the physical universe, that no physical beings would survive. But a process of proton decay is not really known, and the apparent expansion shows no sign of stopping for contraction to happen. And a contracting universe would have no known mechanism for a new universe to rebound from it, there wouldn't be the elasticity at all. There is nothing known for a certainty of collapse of the physical universe being possible.
To trust that God provides the universe, and also provides for our eternity, is not very compatible with the thinking that this universe must come to an end, even with another made that would somehow be eternal for us when God would not have that for this one in which God made creation in perfection, and with it told for us, as if we need to be told, all creation groans, waiting for the revealing of the redemption, because of him who subjected it in hope.
hedrick said:
The most likely outcome of continuing expansion is the Big Chill of heat death, both of which I included under collapse.
That thinking that this universe will come to that is excluding God, God as Creator of everything is certainly with power to keep any of it from coming to that, and since God is appealed to for a whole other universe that would not come to that, there is no great reason to doubt God would restore the creation made in perfection which groans, waiting for the revealing of the redemption, because of him who subjected it in hope, to incorruptibility in this universe really for eternity.
 

hedrick

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That thinking that this universe will come to that is excluding God, God as Creator of everything is certainly with power to keep any of it from coming to that, and since God is appealed to for a whole other universe that would not come to that, there is no great reason to doubt God would restore the creation made in perfection which groans, waiting for the revealing of the redemption, because of him who subjected it in hope, to incorruptibility in this universe really for eternity.
Of course. Scientists can only tell you what current processes would produce. God could certainly intervene.

I wonder, however, whether that's likely. The current universe, the earth, human bodies, etc. all seem designed for finite life. Paul talks about spiritual bodies, and Jesus appeared in a form that could go through walls, etc. It could just as well be that there's a new world as that the current one gets all of its laws changed and key properties of its matter changed. If there's a new creation, then it makes perfect sense that this one would run down and disappear.
 

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The most likely outcome of continuing expansion is the Big Chill of heat death, both of which I included under collapse.
That thinking that this universe will come to that is excluding God, God as Creator of everything is certainly with power to keep any of it from coming to that, and since God is appealed to for a whole other universe that would not come to that, there is no great reason to doubt God would restore the creation made in perfection which groans, waiting for the revealing of the redemption, because of him who subjected it in hope, to incorruptibility in this universe really for eternity.
Hedrick said:
Of course. Scientists can only tell you what current processes would produce. God could certainly intervene.

I wonder, however, whether that's likely. The current universe, the earth, human bodies, etc. all seem designed for finite life. Paul talks about spiritual bodies, and Jesus appeared in a form that could go through walls, etc. It could just as well be that there's a new world as that the current one gets all of its laws changed and key properties of its matter changed. If there's a new creation, then it makes perfect sense that this one would run down and disappear.
It is likely, and quite certain, as Yahweh God, the perfect Creator, made creation with the perfect design, and the finiteness perceived is since the fall and the curse in creation from our sinful choices, to the creation we are in, in light of what is shown in scriptures, especially in Romans 8:20-21, God would restore the creation made in perfection which groans, waiting for the revealing of the redemption, because of him who subjected it in hope, to incorruptibility. God putting the redeemed in another universe for it when God can renew this one would not let that passage be fulfilled.
 
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FredVB

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That creation came from God the Creator with perfect design has bearing on our need for a model of living. It was the way things were meant to last, though God was not surprised and took the fall of humanity into sin and the resulting growing curse into account with the plan for redemption with Christ coming always known, and those yet to come who would be in relationship with God through Christ already known. The creation was to always last. Scientists finding models of the universe apart from taking God into account only see what will be shown from this fallen world with the growing curse in creation, the restoration of creation with the redemption all fulfilled is not taken into account, creation will be restored and all the curse is removed with all that is destroyed, and those unregenerated sinners perish remaining eternally with their suffering outside of that restored creation.

Along with this, that Christians are permitted to have meat from animals is a very loose understanding from Bible passages, that are not really permitting everything. All creation groans under the futility it is in now with expectation waiting for the revealing of the redemption when it will be delivered from the bondage of corruption (Romans 8:19-22). We were certainly to be responsible for creation care.
 

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ImaginaryDay2 said:
Of course scripture shows that Satan DID not - according to the will of God. Revelation bears that out. But I didn't ask if he DID not, but if he "could or could not". If satan had the will to rebel, COULD he (not DID he) have had the will to repent of his deeds?

And it's not about if I "still need scriptural references". I was asking an honest question in hopes of some discussion.
Bible passages about repentance and salvation address these things only for human people, who are all a fallen race. These are not addressed to animals nor to angels. Animals do not have capacity for moral choices human people do, and are innocent of sins that we have. They suffer in this world with the growing curse in it from our continuing sins, as creation groans with hope of the redemption fully being shown. The creatures will be in the restored creation which will be without harm or death that we continually contribute to now, until there is real repentance for all such things. Angels have a greater capacity for moral choice than human people do, they can choose so absolutely with full understanding that there is never repentance from it, every moral choice is made with full absolute commitment. And so Satan, and the many angels that followed him in the beginning and since then, who are fallen, fully commited to it, without repentance possiple, which none of them could come to, and never would yet. Unfallen angels have no temptation ever compelling them to choose what is wrong. Having this is what we were to grow to.
 

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ImaginaryDay2 said:
Now, clearly he wouldn't have been crucified without sin, since people without sin would certainly never crucify the Son of God. But might he have come anyway? That depends upon whether he had purposes other than dying, and whether those would apply even without sin.
That's an interesting consideration. Mohamed also had purposes for coming to this earth other than dying, but he was one with Sin. He called people to follow the god that he know, and now has many followers, even though his god is a false one. The Christian Gospel (in one respect) relies on the fact that the sinless Son of God WAS without sin, LIVED a sinless life, DIED a sinless death, and rose again. Without that, many things are called into question
If humanity remained sinless from creation, which God provided the opportunity for, Jesus Christ the Son of God, the incarnation of the Word (Logos) with God who is God, though as it is came to humanity always without sin, and lived a sinless life, died sinless, and rose again, would stil come as the manifest God among humanity though not for redemption they would need, as they would not need it. But God would always provide a way for being among us. As it is, we need to be redeemed with our repentance, through Christ making that available to us, for that.
 
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