The Simple Original Apostolic Gospel

[Lamb]

Paul seems somewhat confused here. In verse 5 he appears to Cephas (Peter) and then to the twelve. When "the twelve" are mentioned in scripture the reference is always to the twelve apostles. But by that time Judas had committed suicide. Sadly Paul did not know of the "betrayal" because he never mentions it.

After Judas' death, there was a drawing of lots to determine who would take the place of leadership and Matthias was elected:

Acts 1:20-26
“‘May another take his place of leadership.’[d]
21 Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, 22 beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.”

23 So they nominated two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24 Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25 to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.” 26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

 

[JRT]

After Judas' death, there was a drawing of lots to determine who would take the place of leadership and Matthias was elected:

Acts 1:20-26
“‘May another take his place of leadership.’[d]
21 Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, 22 beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.”

23 So they nominated two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24 Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25 to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.” 26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

Yes, I am quite aware of that but the election of Matthias took place about 50 days after the Resurrection. Paul obviously thought that Judas was a witness to the resurrection but the gospels were all written after Paul's death.

 

[atpollard]

Yes, I am quite aware of that but the election of Matthias took place about 50 days after the Resurrection. Paul obviously thought that Judas was a witness to the resurrection but the gospels were all written after Paul's death.

[Luk 24:13, 15-16, 18, 33 NASB] 13 And behold, two of them were going that very day to a village named Emmaus, which was about seven miles from Jerusalem. ... 15 While they were talking and discussing, Jesus Himself approached and [began] traveling with them. 16 But their eyes were prevented from recognizing Him. ... 18 One [of them,] named Cleopas, answered and said to Him, "Are You the only one visiting Jerusalem and unaware of the things which have happened here in these days?" ... 33 And they got up that very hour and returned to Jerusalem, and found gathered together the eleven and those who were with them,

Or Matthias was the other disciple on the road to Emmaus that saw the resurrected Christ and Paul did meet all of the Apostles in Jerusalem (still alive since Stephen was obviously dead) on one of his visits. As long as Jesus appeared to Matthias at some point, then he appeared to all 12 Apostles.

 

[Pedrito]

==============================================================================================

The Simple Original Apostolic Gospel​

==============================================================================================

The twists and turns.

Arsenios in Post 21 stated [emphasis added]:

Pedrito was astonished that I should suggest that had Adam not sinned, Christ would still have incarnated to give us Life...
But that we should not then need to be baptized into His Death...
Because He died for our sins...
And had Adam not sinned, He would not have been crucified...

Let’s have closer look.

My exact statement in Post #12 was [colors added]:
I was surprised by the statement “Had Adam not sinned, Christ would have still incarnated...”. A sensible question is: “Why?” Another is: “Where does Holy Scripture tell us that?”

I definitely was surprised at the gross unscripturality of the statement (but showed myself open to learning if Scriptural support did actually exist). And now I am even more surprised at the expanded statement “...had Adam not sinned, Christ would still have incarnated to give us Life...”. So, I now have to ask, if Man had not sinned, why would Mankind need to be given “Life”? And, where is the Scripture that says so?

Arsenios’ reply in Post #19 is instructive. He deflects attention away from the original question, by saying:

C'mon, Pedrito!
Christ was crucified for our sins...
If Adam had not sinned...
Christ need not have been crucified...

Occam's razor 101…

We await information from Arsenios regarding where in Holy Scripture it is stated that Christ would have come anyway to give us Life, even if Man had not sinned. That will determine whether or not the Simple Original Apostolic Gospel included that idea.

Remember, any religious belief that does not have its origin with God, has its origin elsewhere.

And that is both instructive and scary.

==============================================================================================

 

[Pedrito]

==============================================================================================

Post #58 (me):

The Poster above [[Lämmchen]] still has not acknowledged that the claimed Biblical support as documented, for that supposed conscious “soul” that survives human death, does not exist. (Did Readers know that Martin Luther himself stated and believed until his death that the human soul (as he understood it to be) remained unconscious until the resurrection? Please check for yourselves.)

In response, Lämmchen offered only a broad comment that implied that Martin Luther’s comment could have been one he retracted later (even though it is well known that it wasn’t):

Lutheran's don't believe everything Martin Luther ever believed in. You do know his beliefs changed on things over the course of his life, don't you? So I don't know why you think that it's part of your argument to state what Luther believed.

By being evasive, and by not directly contradicting the statement, Lämmchen simply emphasised the truth of that statement. Martin Luther himself stated and believed until his death that the human soul (as he understood it to be) remained unconscious until the resurrection.

==============================================================================================

But interestingly, what do we find if we look at some statements made in the Thread “What is FAITH?”?

Post #3:

I like how Martin Luther defined it: "Faith is a living, bold trust in God’s grace, so certain of God’s favor that it would risk death a thousand times trusting in it. Such confidence and knowledge of God’s grace makes you happy, joyful and bold in your relationship to God and all creatures. The Holy Spirit makes this happen through faith. Because of it, you freely, willingly and joyfully do good to everyone, serve everyone, suffer all kinds of things, love and praise the God who has shown you such grace."

That Post was given two Likes, and also received two supportive Posts (Post #5, #23).

So it seems that Martin Luther’s thoughts can be invoked for support when convenient (even when he might have changed his mind later?). But direct, unchanging beliefs he expressed, when they prove inconvenient, must be thrown into doubt somehow. (The same situation could well be detected regarding other commentators/leaders/theologians, etc., as well.)

And there we have another example of the wiles and ways of Christendom.


How strongly those wiles and ways stand in stark contrast to the straightforward truth of the Simple, Original, Apostolic Gospel.


==============================================================================================

 

[FredVB]

==============================================================================================

Post #58 (me):


In response, Lämmchen offered only a broad comment that implied that Martin Luther’s comment could have been one he retracted later (even though it is well known that it wasn’t):


By being evasive, and by not directly contradicting the statement, Lämmchen simply emphasised the truth of that statement. Martin Luther himself stated and believed until his death that the human soul (as he understood it to be) remained unconscious until the resurrection.

==============================================================================================

But interestingly, what do we find if we look at some statements made in the Thread “What is FAITH?”?

Post #3:


That Post was given two Likes, and also received two supportive Posts (Post #5, #23).

So it seems that Martin Luther’s thoughts can be invoked for support when convenient (even when he might have changed his mind later?). But direct, unchanging beliefs he expressed, when they prove inconvenient, must be thrown into doubt somehow. (The same situation could well be detected regarding other commentators/leaders/theologians, etc., as well.)

And there we have another example of the wiles and ways of Christendom.


How strongly those wiles and ways stand in stark contrast to the straightforward truth of the Simple, Original, Apostolic Gospel.


==============================================================================================

The simple original apostolic gospel can be seen in contrast to a lot of modern Christian churches. But it is not contrary to faith in all the scriptures of the Bible.

Philippians 1:21-23 Paul states,
For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor, yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.

I can not see Paul stated this and really believed it if he saw that his departure from life in this world meant that his soul would remain unconscious until the resurrection. That would not be better than remaining with Christ living in us and doing here what we have in this life to still do. It is only better going to actually be with Christ directly with awareness, right away,, with our soul preceding the later resurrection in which we have our resurrection bodies. Paul actually had to go through a tortuous death for that. But going through that with being with Christ directly with awareness right away was better than remaining longer with Christ living in him and doing what he would have to do here.

 

[Arsenios]

This little (5min) query on where the Bible came from should prove fruitful:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTEe7IKKYII


Arsenios

 

[hedrick]

Remember, any religious belief that does not have its origin with God, has its origin elsewhere.

Sure, but sometimes considering hypothetical questions can help clarify the structure of belief. Unless the EO have doctrines I don't know about, there's no official answer to the question of whether Christ would have come anyway. But thinking about the question might help us think about the purpose of Christ.

Now, clearly he wouldn't have been crucified without sin, since people without sin would certainly never crucify the Son of God. But might he have come anyway? That depends upon whether he had purposes other than dying, and whether those would apply even without sin.

I'm not going to attempt an answer, but I don't see anything wrong with doing so.

 

[hedrick]

I can not see Paul stated this and really believed it if he saw that his departure from life in this world meant that his soul would remain unconscious until the resurrection. That would not be better than remaining with Christ living in us and doing here what we have in this life to still do. It is only better going to actually be with Christ directly with awareness, right away,, with our soul preceding the later resurrection in which we have our resurrection bodies. Paul actually had to go through a tortuous death for that. But going through that with being with Christ directly with awareness right away was better than remaining longer with Christ living in him and doing what he would have to do here.

I want to be clear that I'm not teaching soul sleep, but I'm not convinced that this is an argument against it.

1) If soul sleep were true, then subjectively one would die and immediately awake at the resurrection.

2) It seems quite plausible to think of both God and the new creation as being separate from this space-time. In that case the whole question of soul-sleep might become irrelevant, since we might move directly from our deaths to the resurrection.

 

[Arsenios]

Arsenios in Post 21 stated [emphasis added]:

Pedrito was astonished that I should suggest that had Adam not sinned,
Christ would still have incarnated to give us Life...
But that we should not then need to be baptized into His Death...
Because He died for our sins...
And had Adam not sinned, He would not have been crucified...

I ask a lot of questions...

Let’s have closer look.

My exact statement in Post #12 was [colors added]:
I was surprised by the statement “Had Adam not sinned, Christ would have still incarnated...”. A sensible question is: “Why?” Another is:

“Where does Holy Scripture tell us that?”

It is an outside the box consideration, no question!

The question never occurred to you?

Oh well...

I definitely was surprised at the gross unscripturality of the statement (but showed myself open to learning if Scriptural support did actually exist). And now I am even more surprised at the expanded statement “...had Adam not sinned, Christ would still have incarnated to give us Life...”. So, I now have to ask, if Man had not sinned, why would Mankind need to be given “Life”?

And, where is the Scripture that says so?

Adam was not mature in God when he sinned - He was but a few days into his walk... God gave him the Garden so he could grow to maturity therein, and once the time had come, would have Himself then incarnated to unite God with humanity within Himself... The sin of Adam was foreseen, and provided for, and our of His Love for man, He ascended the Cross for the forgiveness of our sins, for by doing so, He took up the Death which Adam had suffered and brought mankind the Gift of Salvation... His Death was by His Own Will and Desire for this reason - eg Because Adam fell in sin unto death... And Christ is the New Adam, taking up what the Old Adam left Him to take up - Which was his Fall from Grace into Death...

WE await information from Arsenios regarding where in Holy Scripture it is stated that Christ would have come anyway to give us Life, even if Man had not sinned. That will determine whether or not the Simple Original Apostolic Gospel included that idea.

Remember, any religious belief that does not have its origin with God, has its origin elsewhere.

This is called a theologuomena - An Orthodox pious opinion, fully consistent with the Biblical account...

And that is both instructive and scary.

:Nooo:Nooo:Nooo:Nooo:Nooo:

Here - Quick!!...

Read John 3:16

100 times out loud

On a freeway on-ramp!!

And you ALL will be neither!!



Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Sure, but sometimes considering hypothetical questions can help clarify the structure of belief. Unless the EO have doctrines I don't know about, there's no official answer to the question of whether Christ would have come anyway. But thinking about the question might help us think about the purpose of Christ.

Now, clearly he wouldn't have been crucified without sin, since people without sin would certainly never crucify the Son of God. But might he have come anyway? That depends upon whether he had purposes other than dying, and whether those would apply even without sin.

I'm not going to attempt an answer, but I don't see anything wrong with doing so.

Exactly on point...

And I do not see a possible objection...

Christ suffered for US...

And WE are to FOLLOW HIM...

Suffering for others...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

[Luk 24:13, 15-16, 18, 33 NASB] 13 And behold, two of them were going that very day to a village named Emmaus, which was about seven miles from Jerusalem. ... 15 While they were talking and discussing, Jesus Himself approached and [began] traveling with them. 16 But their eyes were prevented from recognizing Him. ... 18 One [of them,] named Cleopas, answered and said to Him, "Are You the only one visiting Jerusalem and unaware of the things which have happened here in these days?" ... 33 And they got up that very hour and returned to Jerusalem, and found gathered together the eleven and those who were with them,

Or Matthias was the other disciple on the road to Emmaus that saw the resurrected Christ and Paul did meet all of the Apostles in Jerusalem (still alive since Stephen was obviously dead) on one of his visits. As long as Jesus appeared to Matthias at some point, then he appeared to all 12 Apostles.

It does seem to be a petty and picayune point, I say!


Arsenios

 

[hedrick]

Exactly on point...

And I do not see a possible objection...

Christ suffered for US...

And WE are to FOLLOW HIM...

Suffering for others...


Arsenios

In an unfallen world, of course, that wouldn't be his role.

But the ideal you see in John's Gospel, and Paul, of a fellowship in communion with him, is still completely appropriate. If Jesus is God's way of being with us, i would think that would be completely appropriate without sin.

 

[FredVB]

I want to be clear that I'm not teaching soul sleep, but I'm not convinced that this is an argument against it.

1) If soul sleep were true, then subjectively one would die and immediately awake at the resurrection.

2) It seems quite plausible to think of both God and the new creation as being separate from this space-time. In that case the whole question of soul-sleep might become irrelevant, since we might move directly from our deaths to the resurrection.

If this being the case were true, while it certainly is conceivable, it would mean all this vast, vast universe all the million million million million cubic lightyears with all the galaxies of thousands of millions of stars and the planets and other bodies going around them, have no future, because the real reality that will go on is outside of those dimensions of the universe with what was made to accommodate us in that. I don't know how I can swallow that. We are included in what creation groans for, it is restoral to what this creation was made to be.

 

[Michael]

Do I need to stand up on one foot and recite it in 10 seconds or less???

Here is the Good News!
A NEW EVENT has occurred upon this earth in which we find ourselves so fallen...
That New Event is the ARRIVAL here and now of the Kingdom of Heaven...
And there is something that man - even you and I and Lamm - can DO about it...
Soooo.....
Standing on one foot...
I present you with the Gospel of Jesus Christ...
Proclaimed by John the Baptizer of Christ and His Forerunner...
Then after his death proclaimed by Christ Himself...
And after His Death on the Cross, proclaimed by Peter...
And to this day proclaimed to all who hear the Gospel:

"Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!"

There!

Three second's worth that time...

The Gospel before Christ...
The Gospel by Christ...
The Gospel after Christ...

Christ's Holy Gospel...

Repent!
Be ye repenting and keep on repenting!
The Gospel is a Command first...
THEN comes the Reason:
For the Kingdom of the Heavens...
That Kingdom which is Christ Incarnate...
Where Christ is our Lord and Master...
Into Whom we are Baptized...
And are given Food and Drink...
Is HERE AND NOW upon this earth...
Is at hand!

One can only enter this Kingdom in purity of heart...
So we repent until we are ready to be washed in Baptism...
Then we are Baptized into Christ washing away all our sins...
And then are sealed in this purity by the anointing of the Holy Spirit...
This is our Christing=Anointing
And only then are we given His Body to eat and His Blood to drink...
And we proceed to continue repenting to keep this purity to the end...
This purity received in Baptism...
As we "run the race set before us"...
As we are slowly transformed as we mature in Christ...
One overcoming of demonic assault after the next...
From Glory to Glory...

"I will take the Cup of Salvation...
And I will call upon the Name of the Lord!"
[A Psalm of David]

THAT IS the Gospel of Christ - The rest makes it possible...
Had Adam not sinned, Christ would have still incarnated...
But He would not have been Crucified...
For THAT we can thank ourselves in our sins...
And Christ's Love for all mankind...
Even for you and me...

What Peter added was:
"Repent and be Baptized..."

"For as many as have been baptized into Christ...
Have put on Christ..."

Arsenios

AMEN!

But be careful friend! You saw what happened to me when I shared on the need for Repentance. :swordfight::angry::boxing:
:biglaugh:

Peace & Blessings! :ange06:

 

[Arsenios]

In an unfallen world, of course, that wouldn't be his role.

Exactly the point...

But the ideal you see in John's Gospel, and Paul, of a fellowship in communion with him, is still completely appropriate.
If Jesus is God's way of being with us, i would think that would be completely appropriate without sin.

This is where the Orthodox have the understanding that most do not, because we understand this "fellowship in communion with God" vastly differently from that loose idea of "fellowship in communion"...

We begin with one's response to the Gospel by adopting repenting as a way of life to the end of our life in this fallen world with our fallen condition leading to our physical death... And once we establish this Way of Life, which is ongoing struggle against our own sins, we are Baptized by Christ through the hands of His Servants INTO Christ, and this Baptism makes us Members of His Body, and it is this Gathering of the Members of Christ's Body that is the Assembly of the Faithful called the Ekklesia, the Church... And it is this Body of Christ on earth that is the Kingdom of the Heavens on earth, for Christ IS God Who IS the Kingdom of Heaven to whom John the Baptist and Forerunner of Christ referred when He proclaimed the Gospel of Christ as the Good News that the Kingdom of the Heavens is AT HAND, and that there is something EACH of us can DO, which is to BEGIN repenting... And for this purpose, John was baptizing his followers INTO repentance, that they should be producing the fruits of repentance, which are a straightening of the path within our souls as a Highway for our God...

And once Baptized into Christ, we are then given True Food when we receive our first Communion Meal, when we eat the Bread that IS the Body of our Lord, and drink the Wine that IS His Blood, that we have Life within us... All this is far deeper than "fellowship in communion", because it establishes us as a New Creation IN Christ, wherein we are ReBorn in our very person, which person is the very Hypostasis, or basis, of our being... For in this Baptism into Christ, we are washed clean in purity, in which condition we are therein hypostatically conjoined with God the Holy Spirit, and begin to "run the race set before us"...

And it is in this New Being that all hell breaks loose, because the Powers and Principalities of Darkness and Death in this fallen world are violently opposed to this condition of its former subjects, and we then begin the great soldierly battles against them, just as the Giants of the Old Testament were not encountered until AFTER the Jews entered across the Jordan River [in which Christ was Himself Baptized], and quailed in fear until David killed Goliath...

So that the Christian Walk for the Orthodox entails keeping the purity of heart that we are given in Baptism, overcoming its enemies, both in ourselves and in those with whom we are called to intercede... For which reason we as a Body are called a Royal Priesthood...

So you can see that being a Christian is a big deal, and is not merely fellowshipping with fellow Bible believers in prayer meetings, Bible studies, and sermons, wherein we will indeed find God's Grace, but no where near the scale it is found in the historic Apostolic Church, for we become ONE with God in Baptism through repentance and overcoming demonic powers and principalities... "For this is Life Eternal, that we KNOW the One True God and His Son, Jesus Christ..." And this knowing is UNION with God, infinitely more intimate that the KNOWING shared between husband and wife, and is called the Marriage of the Lamb...

So the Mystery of this Marriage is ENTERED - It cannot be taught... There are no classes... Having it explained will do no good...

Welcome to Orthodox Christianity!

We have been doing this since Christ discipled His Disciples...

And His Disciples discipled their disciples...

And God disciples the Mature in this Faith Christ gave us through them...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

AMEN!
But be careful friend!

I know - Menno thinks I am nuts, and nobody here seems to get the difference between seeking God's Grace by repentance and earning it by the same repentance... They all think that if you seek Grace by living a repentant life, you think you are EARNING it... That understanding denies God's commanding us to live repentant lives so that He will save us...

You saw what happened to me when I shared on the need for Repentance.

:swordfight::angry::boxing:

Look what happened to Christ!

Look what happened to His unrepenting disciple, Judas Iscariot!

And the unbelieving and unrepentant Christ-persecuting Jews!

Blessed art thou...
When men shall persecute you...
And say all manner of evil against you falsely...
For My Sake...
For Great is your Reward in the Heavens!

I was typing my last post above when you posted my long ago post...

Bring on [Loose] the Dogs [of War]!!



Arsenios

 

[hedrick]

This is where the Orthodox have the understanding that most do not, because we understand this "fellowship in communion with God" vastly differently from that loose idea of "fellowship in communion"...

But I was speaking of a hypothetical world without sin. In that case the repentance side of Christianity would be missing. But fellowship would still be possible. Do you think that sin and repentance so dominates the Christian life that nothing would be left without sin?

 

[hedrick]

If this being the case were true, while it certainly is conceivable, it would mean all this vast, vast universe all the million million million million cubic lightyears with all the galaxies of thousands of millions of stars and the planets and other bodies going around them, have no future, because the real reality that will go on is outside of those dimensions of the universe with what was made to accommodate us in that. I don't know how I can swallow that. We are included in what creation groans for, it is restoral to what this creation was made to be.

I admit we aren't certain of the future, but most cosmological models lead to collapse of the physical universe in one way or the other. Possibly even leading to new ones, but no physical beings would survive the transition.

Perhaps the new heavens and new earth imply a change so this process no longer happens.

 

[Arsenios]

But I was speaking of a hypothetical world without sin. In that case the repentance side of Christianity would be missing. But fellowship would still be possible. Do you think that sin and repentance so dominates the Christian life that nothing would be left without sin?

All hypothetical, but there would have been the Union with God that we now attain in Baptism - No way to tell HOW...

Christian Life without sin in a fallen world?

That is why the acquisition of Christian Virtue is so important...

Without sin we have no personal motivation...

Christ practiced perfect obedience...

Saints who are perfected are kept going by obedience to God in varying degrees of perfection...

But if you are no longer looking for worldly rewards, apathia follows, and virtue better kick in...

"This life was given to you for repentance...
Do not waste it on vain pursuits."
St. Isaac the Syrian

When you get the log out of your own eye, then you may find yourself able to help another with a small speck in his...

I love giving advice...

Since I am never using it anyway!


Arsenios