Sinless Mary

[MoreCoffee]

Grace: God giving us what we do not deserve.
Sinless person's do not need grace. Mary needed grace. She was not sinless.

Andam Adam did not "need grace" you say yet he received it. The holy angels do not need grace yet they receive it. The lord received grace according to the psalm of David

To the choirmaster: according to Lilies. A Maskil of the Sons of Korah; a love song.
My heart overflows with a pleasing theme; I address my verses to the king; my tongue is like the pen of a ready scribe.
You are the most handsome of the sons of men; grace is poured upon your lips; therefore God has blessed you forever.
Psalms 45:1-2

Banes Notes on the Bible says:

Psalms 45:2

Thou art fairer than the children of men - That is, Thou art more fair and comely than men; thy comeliness is greater than that which is found among men. In other words, Thou art beautiful beyond any human standard or comparison. The language, indeed, would not necessarily imply that he was not a man, but it means that among all who dwell upon the earth there was none to be found that could be compared with him. The Hebrew word rendered “thou art fairer” - יפיפית ya¯peya¯piytha - is a very unusual term. It is properly a reduplication of the word meaning “beautiful,” and thus means to be very beautiful. It would be well expressed by the phrase “Beautiful - beautiful - art thou above the children of men.” It is the language of surprise - of a sudden impression of beauty - beauty as it strikes at the first glance - such as the eye had never seen before. The impression here is that produced by the general appearance or aspect of him who is seen as king. Afterward the attention is more particularly directed to the “grace that is poured into his lips.” The language here would well express the emotions often felt by a young convert when he is first made to see the beauty of the character of the Lord Jesus as a Saviour: “Beautiful; beautiful, above all men.”

Grace is poured into thy lips - The word here rendered “is poured” means properly to pour, to pour out as liquids - water, or melted metal: Gen 28:18; 2Ki 4:4. The meaning here is, that grace seemed to be spread over his lips; or that this was strikingly manifest on his lips. The word grace means properly favor; and then it is used in the general sense of benignity, kindness, mildness, gentleness, benevolence. The reference here is to his manner of speaking, as corresponding with the beauty of his person, and as that which particularly attracted the attention of the psalmist: the mildness; the gentleness; the kindness; the persuasive eloquence of his words. It is hardly necessary to remark that this, in an eminent degree, was applicable to the Lord Jesus. Thus if is said Luk 4:22, “And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth.” So Joh 7:46 : “Never man spake like this man.” See also Mat 7:29; Mat 13:54; Luk 2:47.

Therefore God hath blessed thee for ever - In connection with this moral beauty - this beauty of character - God will bless thee to all eternity. Since he has endowed thee with such gifts and graces, he will continue to bless thee, forever. In other words, it is impossible that one who is thus endowed should ever be an object of the divine displeasure.

 

[MennoSota]

Andam did not "need grace" you say yet he received it. The holy angels do not need grace yet they receive it. The lord received grace according to the psalm of David

To the choirmaster: according to Lilies. A Maskil of the Sons of Korah; a love song.
My heart overflows with a pleasing theme; I address my verses to the king; my tongue is like the pen of a ready scribe.
You are the most handsome of the sons of men; grace is poured upon your lips; therefore God has blessed you forever.
Psalms 45:1-2

Banes Notes on the Bible says:

Psalms 45:2

Thou art fairer than the children of men - That is, Thou art more fair and comely than men; thy comeliness is greater than that which is found among men. In other words, Thou art beautiful beyond any human standard or comparison. The language, indeed, would not necessarily imply that he was not a man, but it means that among all who dwell upon the earth there was none to be found that could be compared with him. The Hebrew word rendered “thou art fairer” - יפיפית ya¯peya¯piytha - is a very unusual term. It is properly a reduplication of the word meaning “beautiful,” and thus means to be very beautiful. It would be well expressed by the phrase “Beautiful - beautiful - art thou above the children of men.” It is the language of surprise - of a sudden impression of beauty - beauty as it strikes at the first glance - such as the eye had never seen before. The impression here is that produced by the general appearance or aspect of him who is seen as king. Afterward the attention is more particularly directed to the “grace that is poured into his lips.” The language here would well express the emotions often felt by a young convert when he is first made to see the beauty of the character of the Lord Jesus as a Saviour: “Beautiful; beautiful, above all men.”

Grace is poured into thy lips - The word here rendered “is poured” means properly to pour, to pour out as liquids - water, or melted metal: Gen 28:18; 2Ki 4:4. The meaning here is, that grace seemed to be spread over his lips; or that this was strikingly manifest on his lips. The word grace means properly favor; and then it is used in the general sense of benignity, kindness, mildness, gentleness, benevolence. The reference here is to his manner of speaking, as corresponding with the beauty of his person, and as that which particularly attracted the attention of the psalmist: the mildness; the gentleness; the kindness; the persuasive eloquence of his words. It is hardly necessary to remark that this, in an eminent degree, was applicable to the Lord Jesus. Thus if is said Luk 4:22, “And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth.” So Joh 7:46 : “Never man spake like this man.” See also Mat 7:29; Mat 13:54; Luk 2:47.

Therefore God hath blessed thee for ever - In connection with this moral beauty - this beauty of character - God will bless thee to all eternity. Since he has endowed thee with such gifts and graces, he will continue to bless thee, forever. In other words, it is impossible that one who is thus endowed should ever be an object of the divine displeasure.

Indeed, before the Fall, Adam had no need for grace. Adam, like us all, needed to be saved by grace because Adam sinned.

 

[Arsenios]

Wow, I take it the photoshopevanjellyfish () is a myth builder.

What is a photoshopevanjellyfish ()?

A.

 

[Arsenios]

Why is it significant for you to claim she was a sinless human like Eve, before the fall?
Scripture goes completely against any human being born sinless, yet here you are, arguing against scripture. Hmm...

It wad I who said that, not MC, though he believes it...

Because we have to be Baptized INTO Christ in purity of heart...

Christ is not birthed into unrepentant sinners...

And NOBODY but Her birthed Christ Himself into His Own Flesh...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

There are other passages that state Jesus was without sin. But none that say it about Mary. Correct?

Just as a philosophic matter, She DID birth God into His Own Flesh in Her own Body...

We need the purification of Baptism to have Christ birthed into us...

How much moreso for Her?

And She IS the New Eve, the First Woman in Revelation... She and those from her...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Indeed, before the Fall, Adam had no need for grace. Adam, like us all, needed to be saved by grace because Adam sinned.

Adam's one sin IS the Fall...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Your "historic" records come from centuries after her death.

Yes, they survived more than three centuries of horrific persecutions of Christians...

During those persecutions, writings by Christians are hard to find...

The Christian witness was martyrdom...

And you come along to keep their witness silent?

To join with the persecutors of Christ?

To call their Witness a fabricated myth?

Not a good idea, Menno...

EVERY Apostolic Church calls Her Blessed...

the Bible tells us that ALL generations of Christians will call Her Blessed...

ALL Bible Believers therefore call her blessed...

Do you call her Blessed yet Menno?


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

You have a misunderstanding of grace. Grace is given to sinners, which Mary was.

I do not even agree with the false doctrine of that infusion of grace...

Think sight alignment...

You are way wide...


Arsenios

 

[Albion]

I do not even agree with the false doctrine of that infusion of grace...

Infusion, Schminfusion

Are you also rejecting the idea that Grace is unmerited assistance given by God to humans for their regeneration or sanctification?

 

[Josiah]

Infusion, Schminfusion

Are you also rejecting the idea that Grace is unmerited assistance given by God to humans for their regeneration or sanctification?

Have we WAY off topic????


"Grace" has many meanings - depending on the context. It has even more meanings in common, contemporary American culture.

In Justification, the meaning I believe is that of unmerited favor and blessing. Protestants mean it that way in Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide.

In Sanctification, the word carries the connotation of divine strength or empowering - what is give by the Holy Spirit which now is in the Christian.



Back to the topic...



1. The Immaculate Conception (1870) is a unique dogma of one singular, unique denomination (the RCC) and holds (as dogma) that Mary UNIQUELY was CONCEIVED without original sin or "the mark of sin" ... and in a very specific sense, remained without sin. The EOC rejects this not so much because it views Mary as sinful but because it essentially denies the whole concept of original sin (a rather western idea).... the "UNIQUELY Mary" is the part they have trouble with.


2. I find this dogma to be baseless..... nothing in Scripture or Apostolic Tradition or the Ecumenical Councils remotely teaches this. There are examples of single individuals alluding to Mary being sinless as early as the 5th century but even those aren't always so clear and don't speak of "conception" at all. This was not a teaching of the RCC until the 12th Century (long after it split from the EOC). Not dogma until 1870. So it not only lacks ANYTHING from Scripture but from anywhere else for that matter. Even the 1870 declaration didn't come from any RCC Synod or Council but simply a Papal Bull.


3. Jimms recently reminded all of us that the Bible strongly rebukes "speculation." As you know, this is a "beef" of mine, lol.... individual persons or churches or denominations..... late..... inventing something that is really just pure speculation... and declaring it DOGMA and thus forever dividing Christians ON THAT POINT. And it seems to ME, nine times out of ten, the speculation ultimately has nothing to do with anything anyway. While I think this easily can be taken too far, PERSONALLY I'd probably put some of these Marian DOGMAS (as well as Transubstantiation and the unique RCC take on Purgatory) as examples where the Bible's rebuke MIGHT apply. IMO, if a single denomination ... late.... invents something clearly not taught in Scripture, Tradition or an Ecumenical Council (not a denominational gathering)... there's a pretty strong burden of proof on them. And the RCC has nothing to support this one. Nothing. All we get is "because I myself alone NOW say so."


4. This unique RCC dogma don't bother me much. It was never a "deal-breaker" for me (none of the Marian dogmas were). I just can't see why it matters (dogmas are issues with the HIGHEST degree of certainty and importance). We were taught that it's true for two reasons: 1) Since sin is inherited via DNA, Mary HAD to be sinless from conception in order for Jesus to be sinless. Of course, even as a kid, I realized then ALSO Mary's parents would need to be sinless, all the way back to Adam and Eve and thus we are ALL sinless. 2) Because Jesus was in Mary's womb, that presence of Jesus sanctifies and removes all sin - even retroactively. Of course, even as a kid, I realized that Jesus also resided in the world, so by that, the whole world would be sanctified, even retroactively, not by grace or the cross or faith but by the mere PRESENCE of Jesus. Not only could no one tell me why this mattered (to the highest level possible) but how we knew it was true. COULD it be? IMO, yes. It also COULD be that Mary was 9 feet tall, allergic to sea food and walked with a limp... but does COULD = dogma? And even if true, does it make it critically important, to the very highest level, to deny such is to go to the bad place?




.

 

[MennoSota]

It wad I who said that, not MC, though he believes it...

Because we have to be Baptized INTO Christ in purity of heart...

No we don't.

Christ is not birthed into unrepentant sinners...

By God's grace...yes He is. Read Ephesians 2:1-10 and actually believe it.

And NOBODY but Her birthed Christ Himself into His Own Flesh...

Any female could have. What we see in Mary is God choosing. So much for free will...

 

[MennoSota]

Adam's one sin IS the Fall...


Arsenios

You think Adam only sinned once?

 

[MennoSota]

Yes, they survived more than three centuries of horrific persecutions of Christians...

During those persecutions, writings by Christians are hard to find...

The Christian witness was martyrdom...

And you come along to keep their witness silent?

To join with the persecutors of Christ?

To call their Witness a fabricated myth?

Not a good idea, Menno...

EVERY Apostolic Church calls Her Blessed...

the Bible tells us that ALL generations of Christians will call Her Blessed...

ALL Bible Believers therefore call her blessed...

Do you call her Blessed yet Menno?


Arsenios

A false narrative can survive a long time. Look at the gnostic writings and the Quran.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

1. The Immaculate Conception (1870) is a unique dogma of one singular, unique denomination (the RCC) and holds (as dogma) that Mary UNIQUELY was CONCEIVED without original sin or "the mark of sin" ... and in a very specific sense, remained without sin....

I'm not so sure that this is unique to the RCC. As "dogma", yes; however, individual opinion seems to vary outside the RCC. I'll take this up in another thread this evening

 

[Albion]

I'm not so sure that this is unique to the RCC. As "dogma", yes; however, individual opinion seems to vary outside the RCC. I'll take this up in another thread this evening

Hmmm. THAT could be interesting.

Offhand, I don't know how we could assess the number of individuals who believe in the IC, even assuming that they all held identical views about it. And because there are always SOME people, somewhere, who believe--or say that they do--almost any notion that the mind of man has come up with, we can already say that there probably are people outside of the RCC who do believe it. But so what?

 

[Josiah]

Hmmm. THAT could be interesting.

Offhand, I don't know how we could assess the number of individuals who believe in the IC, even assuming that they all held identical views about it. And because there are always SOME people, somewhere, who believe--or say that they do--almost any notion that the mind of man has come up with, we can already say that there probably are people outside of the RCC who do believe it. But so what?

1. I agree. Do SOME non-Catholics hold a personal opinion that Mary never sinned? Probably (of course, some also hold that the Earth is small, square and flat....). You'll find FEW in the east who hold that Mary uniquely was conceived without original sin because they don't accept the concept of original sin (at least not as we Western Christians do) and believe EVERYONE is conceived without this. And you'll likely find no one before the 5th century who held to this dogma or even officially any denomination before the 12th Century. Doesn't make it wrong but it doesn't make the opinion general - today or ever.


2. Opinions abound. There is actually MUCH better substantiation for Joseph being an old man. This goes back to the early second century (LONG before any opinions about Mary's conception or if she was conceived with original sin). Folks admit the Bible says no such thing, and nor does any true Ecumenical Council, but this opinion is FAR, FAR earlier and FAR, FAR more general and ecumenical than this opinion about Mary's conception. But it's not DOGMA anywhere. And a famous Catholic actor could make a whole movie about Christmas and have a YOUNG Joseph and the RCC is fine with that. But ... well.... I asked a Catholic teacher whether one who denies a dogma (like the Immaculate Conception) still goes to heaven, and thus was the response: "To knowingly reject a dogma is to be a heretic and there are no heretics in heaven." IF the RCC had kept the INFALLIBLE pope an "opinion" perhaps 1054 would never have happened. IF the RCC had kept Transubstantiation an "opinion" then Lutherans, Catholics, Orthodox and Anglicans would all be in agreement on the Eucharist. Status matters. I think it was our good friend jimms who recently posted how the Bible boldly condemns speculation used to divide.

 

[Arsenios]

A false narrative can survive a long time. Look at the gnostic writings and the Quran.

I will leave you with the gnostic writings, thankyouverymuchokalready!

Do you have a different historical source you can share with us?

Do you call her Blessed yet Menno?


Arsenios

 

[Josiah]

Calling Her Blessed is not the same thing as substantiation that it is Dogma that Mary was uniquely conceived without original sin.... it's not even substantiation that she was sinless (and thus NOTHING in her thought, words, deeds or nature was in any way less than that of God).

 

[Arsenios]

You think Adam only sinned once?

His ONE sin caused the Fall...

Prior to that one sin he had no sin...

Unless you want to call God a liar...

"The day you shall eat thereof you shall surely die..."

Unless, of course, you want to count his failure to repent of that one sin as also a cause of the Fall...

But by that time, he was too wounded by his first sin to repent of it...

It was that WOMAN You sent me, Lord!

SHE is to blame, not ME, OK?


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Calling Her Blessed is not the same thing as substantiation that it is Dogma that Mary was uniquely conceived without original sin.... it's not even substantiation that she was sinless (and thus NOTHING in her thought, words, deeds or nature was in any way less than that of God).

You're a-preachin' to the choir, Josiah...
Menno can't even believe the Bible and call her blessed...
The doctrine of the Latin Church that she was immaculately conceived is false...
Get it?
Got it?
GOOD!!


Arsenios