Sinless Mary

[Tigger]

I went through the whole thread :hot: and didn’t see this reference posted. If so then I’ll stand corrected.

Also, Mary is the new Eve. Eve is a Mary type. If Eve was created without sin and she is the lesser creation, it follows the new Eve (Mary) would be created without sin. The first recorded father to definitively put this forth would be Justin Martyr in his dialogue with Trypho around 155 AD.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I went through the whole thread :hot: and didn’t see this reference posted. If so then I’ll stand corrected.

Also, Mary is the new Eve. Eve is a Mary type. If Eve was created without sin and she is the lesser creation, it follows the new Eve (Mary) would be created without sin. The first recorded father to definitively put this forth would be Justin Martyr in his dialogue with Trypho around 155 AD.

I did reference Justin Martyr, but I am not sure if I included a quote and reference.

 

[MoreCoffee]

How many women, especially poor women living in rural backwater areas of Palestine, were educated and literate in 0 CE?

There was no year 0 either in the AD or BC eras. The years went from 1 BC to 1 AD with no 0 intervening. Jewish literacy was fairly high, it may have been mainly males or perhaps both males and females who learned to read at an early age so that they could read the Jewish scriptures and traditions.

 

[MoreCoffee]

A reminder for [MENTION=394]MennoSota[/MENTION].

Is Jesus God?

Yes, Jesus is God manifest in the flesh. God incarnate. Yet Jesus Christ, the Lord, did not write any parts of holy scripture. You could point to the ten commandments on the tablets of stone that are said to be written by the finger of God in the books of Moses. But since Jesus had not yet been revealed it would be a bit of a slight of hand to say that Jesus, the man who walked the Earth, wrote the ten commandments with his flesh finger.

Did God not speak and humans wrote as God directed?

Yes, God did inspire human beings (sometimes by direct speech to them) to write the holy scriptures but isn't that the very thing I have already said; specifically, that God did not write the holy scriptures, people did.

I am not arguing that God did not inspire the writing of the holy scriptures, on the contrary I affirm that he did, but rather I am affirming that people wrote the holy scriptures under inspiration from God. People did it. God inspired it. The Lord, Jesus Christ, did not write any of the new testament scriptures. He inspired them all and wrote none with his own earthly hand.

Jesus is far, far higher than Mary.

The Lord, Jesus Christ is God so he is more than "far far higher than Blessed Mary" He is infinitely higher and greater and more glorious and purer and is in every way greater and better than is the Blessed virgin Mary because Blessed Mary is a creature and not the creator.

The book of Hebrews outlines how Jesus is higher than all things. Please note that Mary is only mentioned in a few short passages and no more. She fulfilled her role in giving birth to God in human flesh. She cared and nutured as any flawed [caring and loving] mother can do. God was pleased with her actions and blessed her for it. That's the extent of her role. Mary was very likely illiterate

As far as I know you are illiterate in ancient Hebrew as am I yet God is pleased to be gentle and kind to us and to allow the faithful to participate in his work of saving the elect. Blessed Mary's role is more than the things you mention because her role is recorded in holy scripture for our instruction as, indeed, are all the things in scripture recorded for our instruction.

, which explains why she treasured things in her heart rather than on paper.

I imagine that Blessed Mary treasured many things in her heart and who is to say that she may not also have treasured things on paper. If she did then none of the paper she used is still with us today, perhaps some of the words she treasured are. There is evidence, albeit only indirect, that Blessed Mary was a principle source for saint Luke's holy gospel.

 

[Andrew]

Well, the prayers of the Righteous avail much, and of the Righteous, She is more righteous than anyone else, ever...

But as the Mother of Christ, She is also our Mother...

I approach threads like these as a babe in Christ would. I personally don't believe that she has anything to do with my Salvation but you and MC make it sound very confusing so again I mind you that I am approaching this at a different angle.
You say to this child in fear of losing salvation that no one has to Worship Mary, I am pleased to hear that.
You say she is more righteous than anyone ever, that's possible but there is no scripture supporting that, I pray to God and sometimes I pray the Hail Mary especially in times of grieving.
You say she is "mother to all Christians" sounds very deep and abstract but not too sure exactly what it means, we pray to the Father yes, but she is not the bride of God, the Church is. Are you saying she is the Mother of the Church in a way? This would confuse me as a babe in Christ.

 

[MennoSota]

There was no year 0 either in the AD or BC eras. The years went from 1 BC to 1 AD with no 0 intervening. Jewish literacy was fairly high, it may have been mainly males or perhaps both males and females who learned to read at an early age so that they could read the Jewish scriptures and traditions.

Why do I care? The point is that Mary was very likely illiterate.

 

[MennoSota]

A reminder for [MENTION=394]MennoSota[/MENTION].

You are too subtle for me. I have no idea what I am to be reminded of.

 

[Arsenios]

They can't even find the town of Nazareth in Galilee. It was likely smaller than most church parking lots. Second, women were rarely educated in Jewish culture.
The conjecture is squarely on people who think Mary was highly educated and literate.

I really don't know what her education was... The Protoevangellion indicates she was placed in the temple at age 3 or so and raised there, and that when she got to her womanhood, she had to depart... No mention of education in the temple for children consecrated there... But we can surmise that the education she encountered and acquired was the education of Grace from God to Whom she was utterly self-consecrated by the time of puberty, because when the Angel Gabriel told her at that time, when betrothed to the elder Joseph, that she would bear a child, she rebuked him with the question: "How can this be? Because I am not knowing (meaning I will be continuing not knowing) a man (any man)?" And we know what happened to every other person who dared challenge an angelic command, yes? Things did not go all that well for them, at least for awhile... But not for her... He answered her accurately, and she then consented to his announcement to her... That consent was a crucial element of the incarnation of our Lord... For we have to also consent to have Him born in us - That is one teaching of her account...

She had blessed wisdom in her knowledge of God, and I think you are right that it may have come without much of the three R's...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I approach threads like these as a babe in Christ would.

Self flattery can backfire...

I personally don't believe that she has anything to do with my Salvation

I know - She brought you Christ upon this earth, and yet has nothing to do with your Salvation"

Does the Apostle Paul have anything to do with your Salvation?

but you and MC make it sound very confusing so again I mind you that I am approaching this at a different angle.

I guess I should apologize for your confusion then?? Because you have a different angle of approach?

She is Christ's Mom... He loves her... You can too...

Is that less confusing?

You say to this child in fear of losing salvation that no one has to Worship Mary, I am pleased to hear that.

My concern for you is not your fear of losing your Salvation, but that your Joy may be full...

You say she is more righteous than anyone ever, that's possible but there is no scripture supporting that,

How many people in Scripture were righteous enough to birth God?

You say she is "mother to all Christians" sounds very deep and abstract but not too sure exactly what it means, we pray to the Father yes, but she is not the bride of God, the Church is. Are you saying she is the Mother of the Church in a way?

She IS the Church, the Body of Christ, who gave her flesh to the never before incarnate God of all creation...

She is this woman, the First Woman of Revelation:

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

This would confuse me as a babe in Christ.

Sounds like posturing...

You can talk to me...


Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

You are too subtle for me. I have no idea what I am to be reminded of.

Is that because you did not read the post in the quote?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Why do I care? The point is that Mary was very likely illiterate.

I see nothing in the holy scriptures nor in holy Tradition to suggest that Blessed Mary was illiterate. Why is it significant for you to make that claim?

 

[Lamb]

I would think that if Mary had been sinless that the gospel writings would have mentioned it, especially after saying, "There is no one righteous, not even one." They would have said, "except for Mary who remains without sin." Don't you?

 

[MoreCoffee]

I would think that if Mary had been sinless that the gospel writings would have mentioned it, especially after saying, "There is no one righteous, not even one." They would have said, "except for Mary who remains without sin." Don't you?

The passage you're quoting doesn't mention that the Lord Jesus was sinless, does it. So why expect it to mention Blessed Mary?

 

[MennoSota]

I really don't know what her education was... The Protoevangellion indicates she was placed in the temple at age 3 or so and raised there, and that when she got to her womanhood, she had to depart... No mention of education in the temple for children consecrated there... But we can surmise that the education she encountered and acquired was the education of Grace from God to Whom she was utterly self-consecrated by the time of puberty, because when the Angel Gabriel told her at that time, when betrothed to the elder Joseph, that she would bear a child, she rebuked him with the question: "How can this be? Because I am not knowing (meaning I will be continuing not knowing) a man (any man)?" And we know what happened to every other person who dared challenge an angelic command, yes? Things did not go all that well for them, at least for awhile... But not for her... He answered her accurately, and she then consented to his announcement to her... That consent was a crucial element of the incarnation of our Lord... For we have to also consent to have Him born in us - That is one teaching of her account...

She had blessed wisdom in her knowledge of God, and I think you are right that it may have come without much of the three R's...


Arsenios

Wow, I take it the photoshopevanjellyfish () is a myth builder.

 

[MennoSota]

Is that because you did not read the post in the quote?

I read what was there. I just have no idea what your point is.

 

[MennoSota]

I see nothing in the holy scriptures nor in holy Tradition to suggest that Blessed Mary was illiterate. Why is it significant for you to make that claim?

Why is it significant for you to claim she was a sinless human like Eve, before the fall?
Scripture goes completely against any human being born sinless, yet here you are, arguing against scripture. Hmm...

 

[MoreCoffee]

Why is it significant for you to claim she was a sinless human like Eve, before the fall?

That's easy. The Catholic Church teaches it.

Scripture goes completely against any human being born sinless

What about the man, Jesus Christ?

, yet here you are, arguing against scripture. Hmm...

 

[MoreCoffee]

I read what was there. I just have no idea what your point is.

I thought that might be the case.

 

[Lamb]

There are other passages that state Jesus was without sin. But none that say it about Mary. Correct?

 

[Tigger]

Not sure how late we are to go considering the OP asks for the ‘earliest’ church father’s writings on Mary’s sinlessness but here we go.

Origen

This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one (Homily 1 [A.D. 244]).