Sinless Mary

[Lamb]

Not sure how late we are to go considering the OP asks for the ‘earliest’ church father’s writings on Mary’s sinlessness but here we go.

Origen

This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one (Homily 1 [A.D. 244]).

Didn't Origen also write this:

(Origen, ca. 240, 'Commentary on The Song of Songs' 3:13, in 'Ancient Christian Writers' 26:237)
"'For all have sinned,' [Romans 3:23] as it is written; and again, as Scripture says: 'There is no just man upon earth that hath done good and hath not sinned;' [Ecclesiastes 7:20] and again: 'No one is free of uncleanness, not even if his life be of but one day.' [Cf. Job 14:4] Therefore Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ alone is He 'who did no sin' [cf. 1 Peter 2:22, citing Isaiah 53:9; 2 Corinthians 5:21]"

 

[MennoSota]

That's easy. The Catholic Church teaches it.


What about the man, Jesus Christ?

Your denomination may teach it, but the teaching is made up far after Mary lived. It's one of many mythical stories created by Rome. You are free to believe them if you wish, but don't imagine anyone else thinks they are factually accurate.

As for Yeshua, he is also fully God.
Are you claiming Mary is fully God? If not, your point is moot.

 

[MennoSota]

Not sure how late we are to go considering the OP asks for the ‘earliest’ church father’s writings on Mary’s sinlessness but here we go.

Origen

This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one (Homily 1 [A.D. 244]).

Didn't Origen also write this:

(Origen, ca. 240, 'Commentary on The Song of Songs' 3:13, in 'Ancient Christian Writers' 26:237)
"'For all have sinned,' [Romans 3:23] as it is written; and again, as Scripture says: 'There is no just man upon earth that hath done good and hath not sinned;' [Ecclesiastes 7:20] and again: 'No one is free of uncleanness, not even if his life be of but one day.' [Cf. Job 14:4] Therefore Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ alone is He 'who did no sin' [cf. 1 Peter 2:22, citing Isaiah 53:9; 2 Corinthians 5:21]"

It should be noted that Origen was a heretic.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Your denomination may teach it, but the teaching is made up far after Mary lived. It's one of many mythical stories created by Rome.

be sure to tell Arsenios that it all comes from Rome
:smirk:

You are free to believe them if you wish, but don't imagine anyone else thinks they are factually accurate.

As for Yeshua [the Lord, Jesus Christ], he is also fully God.
Are you claiming Mary is fully God?

Had you read my earlier post (see #154) you would know that answer to that question.

If not, your point is moot.

 

[Tigger]

It should be noted that Origen was a heretic.

Okay but St Augustine wasn't considered a heretic.

He then enumerates those ‘who not only lived without sin, but are described as having led holy lives, -- Abel, Enoch, Melchizedek, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joshua the son of Nun, Phinehas, Samuel, Nathan, Elijah, Joseph, Elisha, Micaiah, Daniel, Hananiah, Azariah, Mishael, Mordecai, Simeon, Joseph to whom the Virgin Mary was espoused, John.’ And he adds the names of some women, -- ‘Deborah, Anna the mother of Samuel, Judith, Esther, the other Anna, daughter of Phanuel, Elisabeth, and also the mother of our Lord and Saviour, for of her,’ he says, ‘we must needs allow that her piety had no sin in it.’ We must except the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin (Augustine, On Nature and Grace, Against Pelagius).

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

As for Yeshua, he is also fully God.

You and Pinacled have been comparing notes?

I thought it was Yahoshua myself...

 

[MennoSota]

Okay but St Augustine wasn't considered a heretic.

He then enumerates those ‘who not only lived without sin, but are described as having led holy lives, -- Abel, Enoch, Melchizedek, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joshua the son of Nun, Phinehas, Samuel, Nathan, Elijah, Joseph, Elisha, Micaiah, Daniel, Hananiah, Azariah, Mishael, Mordecai, Simeon, Joseph to whom the Virgin Mary was espoused, John.’ And he adds the names of some women, -- ‘Deborah, Anna the mother of Samuel, Judith, Esther, the other Anna, daughter of Phanuel, Elisabeth, and also the mother of our Lord and Saviour, for of her,’ he says, ‘we must needs allow that her piety had no sin in it.’ We must except the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin (Augustine, On Nature and Grace, Against Pelagius).

No one disputes that Mary sought to live a holy (separated) life. The dispute is regarding sinlessness. None of the names mentioned, except Yeshua, lived a sinless life. If Augustine claimed they were all sinless...then Augustine was sorely mistaken. However, since you didn't actually quote Augustine, I will wait for the exact quote.

 

[MennoSota]

You and Pinacled have been comparing notes?

I thought it was Yahoshua myself...

Yeshua is the correct word. Jesus is a transliteration of the word Yeshua.

 

[Tigger]

No one disputes that Mary sought to live a holy (separated) life. The dispute is regarding sinlessness. None of the names mentioned, except Yeshua, lived a sinless life. If Augustine claimed they were all sinless...then Augustine was sorely mistaken. However, since you didn't actually quote Augustine, I will wait for the exact quote.

St. Augustine


We must except the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin. Well, then, if, with this exception of the Virgin, we could only assemble together all the forementioned holy men and women, and ask them whether they lived without sin whilst they were in this life, what can we suppose would be their answer? (A Treatise on Nature and Grace, chapter 42 [XXXVI]; NPNF 1, Vol. V)

 

[MennoSota]

St. Augustine


We must except the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear
Him who undoubtedly had no sin.
Well, then, if, with this exception of the Virgin, we could only assemble together all the forementioned holy men and women, and ask them whether they lived without sin whilst they were in this life, what can we suppose would be their answer? (A Treatise on Nature and Grace, chapter 42 [XXXVI]; NPNF 1, Vol. V)

Augustine is calling Jesus sinless in your quote. He is not calling Mary sinless.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Augustine is calling Jesus sinless in your quote. He is not calling Mary sinless.

Seems that saint Augustine is saying more than that. He wrote "for from Him [the Lord] we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her [Blessed Mary] who had the merit to conceive and bear Him [the Lord] who undoubtedly had no sin". He affirms that undoubted sinlessness of the Lord Jesus while also attributing to his grace an abundance of grace for overcoming sins as a gift given to Blessed Mary.

 

[MennoSota]

Seems that saint Augustine is saying more than that. He wrote "for from Him [the Lord] we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her [Blessed Mary] who had the merit to conceive and bear Him [the Lord] who undoubtedly had no sin". He affirms that undoubted sinlessness of the Lord Jesus while also attributing to his grace an abundance of grace for overcoming sins as a gift given to Blessed Mary.

Grace is needed for sinner not the sinless, MC. Your very quote shows your position is false and Augustine is not agreeing with you.

 

[Arsenios]

The teaching is made up far after Mary lived... one of many mythical stories created by Rome.

It is her ecclesiastical biography that survived the 3+ centuries of horrific persecutions BY Rome and many other evil rulers...

It is taught in the services of Matins throughout each liturgical year...

Do you have some other historical record you might care to share?


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Grace is needed for sinner not the sinless, MC. Your very quote shows your position is false and Augustine is not agreeing with you.

I think that the doctrine asserts that this grace was given at her conception in Anna's womb by Joachim's seed...


Arsenios

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

St. Augustine

We must except the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin. Well, then, if, with this exception of the Virgin, we could only assemble together all the forementioned holy men and women, and ask them whether they lived without sin whilst they were in this life, what can we suppose would be their answer? (A Treatise on Nature and Grace, chapter 42 [XXXVI]; NPNF 1, Vol. V)

Augustine is calling Jesus sinless in your quote. He is not calling Mary sinless.

The bolded puts in better context. It does suggest the sinlessness of Mary. Not that I agree, but St. Augustine's quote speaks to it

 

[Tigger]

The bolded puts in better context. It does suggest the sinlessness of Mary. Not that I agree, but St. Augustine's quote speaks to it

Correct, and between the bolded brackets seals St Augustine’s point.

St. Augustine


We must except the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin. {{Well, then, if, with this exception of the Virgin, we could only assemble together all the forementioned holy men and women, and ask them whether they lived without sin whilst they were in this life, what can we suppose would be their answer?}} (A Treatise on Nature and Grace, chapter 42 [XXXVI]; NPNF 1, Vol. V)

 

[MennoSota]

It is her ecclesiastical biography that survived the 3+ centuries of horrific persecutions BY Rome and many other evil rulers...

It is taught in the services of Matins throughout each liturgical year...

Do you have some other historical record you might care to share?


Arsenios

Your "historic" records come from centuries after her death.

 

[MennoSota]

I think that the doctrine asserts that this grace was given at her conception in Anna's womb by Joachim's seed...


Arsenios

You have a misunderstanding of grace. Grace is given to sinners, which Mary was.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Grace is needed for sinner not the sinless, MC. Your very quote shows your position is false and Augustine is not agreeing with you.

Perhaps grace is more than that. A gift from God given to make life. Alike Adam received when God from the Earth made dust into flash and gave it breath. That was grace given to the perfect and sinless man before he fell into sin and fear of hell.

 

[MennoSota]

Perhaps grace is more than that. A gift from God given to make life. Alike Adam received when God from the Earth made dust into flash and gave it breath. That was grace given to the perfect and sinless man before he fell into sin and fear of hell.

Grace: God giving us what we do not deserve.
Sinless person's do not need grace. Mary needed grace. She was not sinless.