Should abortion be illegal?

[Arsenios]

What if the mother crosses the boarder into Canada or Mexico and procures an abortion in one of those countries, ought they to be arrested and tried in the USA if the USA makes abortion illegal?

Canada and Mexico are outside our jurisdiction...

However if an abortion is illegal in, say, Mexico, and a US citizen goes there and obtains one, and then flees the Mexican Law, then IF we have an extradition agreement for that crime with Mexico, we would be obligated to arrest the woman and send her to Mexico to stand trial...

We should not (and normally do not) enforce our laws outside our own country...

What if a Downs Syndrome child somehow survives a late term abortion and is laying in a metal tray screaming and bloody... Should the Physician finish the procedure designed to kill the child? Or does the breath and screams make that non-person into a person...? And should he then be charged with murder if he terminates the unwanted life?


Arsenios

 

[Andrew]

Let's assume that they do cross legally, as is usually the case today. A USA citizen (or resident) crosses into Canada nd procures an abortion then returns to the USA. The same applies to a USA woman crossing into Mexico and then returning to the USA. All legal with passports and everything.

If they come back still pregnant or with child they are fine, if they don't they should be tried for it. I can entertain scenarios in my mind all day but I am still only an average conservative, this is the world I live in and the battle is the great division of America, I blame the Godless liberals and they blame the God fearing conservatives...

 

[Andrew]

Canada and Mexico are outside our jurisdiction...

However if an abortion is illegal in, say, Mexico, and a US citizen goes there and obtains one, and then flees the Mexican Law, then IF we have an extradition agreement for that crime with Mexico, we would be obligated to arrest the woman and send her to Mexico to stand trial...

We should not (and normally do not) enforce our laws outside our own country...

What if a Downs Syndrome child somehow survives a late term abortion and is laying in a metal tray screaming and bloody... Should the Physician finish the procedure designed to kill the child? Or does the breath and screams make that non-person into a person...? And should he then be charged with murder if he terminates the unwanted life?


Arsenios

Euthanasia is an abomination, something the Nazis wanted... I helped in 'special' classes and these children always kept a smile on my face and were very happy themselves.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Canada and Mexico are outside our jurisdiction...

However if an abortion is illegal in, say, Mexico, and a US citizen goes there and obtains one, and then flees the Mexican Law, then IF we have an extradition agreement for that crime with Mexico, we would be obligated to arrest the woman and send her to Mexico to stand trial...

We should not (and normally do not) enforce our laws outside our own country...

What if a Downs Syndrome child somehow survives a late term abortion and is laying in a metal tray screaming and bloody... Should the Physician finish the procedure designed to kill the child? Or does the breath and screams make that non-person into a person...? And should he then be charged with murder if he terminates the unwanted life?

Arsenios

Would be okay, just pay for your flight, bus trip, car ride, or whatever form of transport you take and come back from your trip minus your baby and it is okay with the law? Would that apply if the baby were born before the trip, just go to Mexico or Canada and have the baby killed and come back and it would be fine? Remembering that in Canada and Mexico abortion is legal so it is no crime to have an abortion in those lands; of course in both Canada and Mexico killing a born baby is likely to be a crime. But let's pretend for the moment that it isn't for the sake of the discussion. Would killing the unborn be okay and would killing a born baby also be okay if it happened outside of USA jurisdiction?

 

[MoreCoffee]

If they come back still pregnant or with child they are fine, if they don't they should be tried for it. I can entertain scenarios in my mind all day but I am still only an average conservative, this is the world I live in and the battle is the great division of America, I blame the Godless liberals and they blame the God fearing conservatives...

Not all on either side are God fearing nor are all on either side godless.

 

[atpollard]

Would be okay, just pay for your flight, bus trip, car ride, or whatever form of transport you take and come back from your trip minus your baby and it is okay with the law? Would that apply if the baby were born before the trip, just go to Mexico or Canada and have the baby killed and come back and it would be fine? Remembering that in Canada and Mexico abortion is legal so it is no crime to have an abortion in those lands; of course in both Canada and Mexico killing a born baby is likely to be a crime. But let's pretend for the moment that it isn't for the sake of the discussion. Would killing the unborn be okay and would killing a born baby also be okay if it happened outside of USA jurisdiction?

At the moment of conception, it became a US citizen with the right to protection under the constitution. If Canada and Mexico are assisting in the criminal actions to murder unborn US citizens, then that is an issue for diplomats to resolve ... closing open borders if necessary.

 

[MoreCoffee]

At the moment of conception, it became a US citizen with the right to protection under the constitution. If Canada and Mexico are assisting in the criminal actions to murder unborn US citizens, then that is an issue for diplomats to resolve ... closing open borders if necessary.

The issue is of some significance; until very recently Ireland had laws against abortion and Irish women would go to the UK and procure and receive an abortion then return to Ireland, as far as I know none were prosecuted for murder or any other breach of the law. Similar laws were in effect in Spain, and other parts of Europe.

It appears to be very difficult for a government to enforce laws against abortion in the face of neighbouring nations having it as a legal medical procedure. Enacting laws to encompass moral values is difficult unless the values are universally accepted. Murder laws are close to universally accepted but abortion is a very different matter. Do you think that closing borders with Canada and Mexico as well as many Western European nations, where abortion is legal, would be possible for the USA?

 

[atpollard]

The issue is of some significance; until very recently Ireland had laws against abortion and Irish women would go to the UK and procure and receive an abortion then return to Ireland, as far as I know none were prosecuted for murder or any other breach of the law. Similar laws were in effect in Spain, and other parts of Europe.

It appears to be very difficult for a government to enforce laws against abortion in the face of neighbouring nations having it as a legal medical procedure. Enacting laws to encompass moral values is difficult unless the values are universally accepted. Murder laws are close to universally accepted but abortion is a very different matter. Do you think that closing borders with Canada and Mexico as well as many Western European nations, where abortion is legal, would be possible for the USA?

You could simply require a passport for both the mother and child to travel. Leaving the US with a child and returning without one should raise questions.

What if Canada or Mexico legalized slavery. Would it be OK to go to Mexico and sell your 15 year old daughter and return to the US alone? You broke no laws in Mexico, you just sold a US Citizen into slavery.

 

[MoreCoffee]

You could simply require a passport for both the mother and child to travel. Leaving the US with a child and returning without one should raise questions.

An unborn child passport? That may be feasible in cases where pregnancy is obvious but what about early pregnancy terminations?

What if Canada or Mexico legalized slavery. Would it be OK to go to Mexico and sell your 15 year old daughter and return to the US alone? You broke no laws in Mexico, you just sold a US Citizen into slavery.

It would be problematic wouldn't it; legalising slavery I mean. If it happened then what could be done? Of course, at this time in history neither Canada nor Mexico have legal slavery and neither country looks as if it will ever introduce it.

 

[Andrew]

Not all on either side are God fearing nor are all on either side godless.

Not all but the majority are

 

[Albion]

Not all on either side are God fearing nor are all on either side godless.

That's probably true. But on the other hand, it is silly to try to argue that the side (conservative) which has as one of its guideposts the moral standards of our societys Christian history are no different from those on the opposite side (liberals, socialists) who, if not uniformly godless, are nevertheless governed by little more than whatever it is that they feel like doing.

 

[Arsenios]

I have to admit that I like the idea of giving out two passports to pregnant women... And making it law that returning without the unborn or born child is a criminal act in the US of A... That if a woman wants to go to Mexico or Canada to get an abortion she will face criminal charges if she returns to the US... The procedure should be simple - Require a declaration on departure of pregnancy status, with random urine checks... A lot of lives could be saved, and therein a lot of murders prevented...

But certainly we can not merely make abortion illegal in the US, but together with that law, establish streamlined adoption procedures for those mothers who do not want the responsibility of rearing their babies...

The killing of an unwanted and unborn child is a grievous wound in the soul of the ones doing it, be they the doctor, the mother, the father, and/or the one paying for it... They need our prayers as much as the ones they have killed...

Indeed, the taking of anyone's life, justified or not, is a wound on the taker... In ancient times, we would take men out of the Holy Communion of the Church when they returned from battles in war, giving them up to three years to confess and repent from the killing therein in which they were participants... Indeed, even today, so serious is the issues of being involved in a death that our Bishops are not permitted to drive, lest someone might get killed by their own negligence or intent driving into a car that the Bishop was driving... And Clergy, upon Ordination to Holy Orders, cannot own any weapons, and especially guns of any kind...

It is important to remember that Death is our enemy, that we are under its rule in this fallen life, and that it is on account of this rule of death that all have sinned...

Rom 5:12
Wherefore,
as by one man (Adam)
sin entered into the world (kosmos),
and death (entered) by sin;
and so death passed upon all men,
for that (eg because of which) all (men) have sinned

Christ only overcame Death in His Own Body...
Death itself He will destroy at the Second Coming...
The last enemy to fall will be Death...
For it was the first to rule over man
Through Adam's sin...
Unto man's sinning...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

That's probably true. But on the other hand, it is silly to try to argue that the side (conservative) which has as one of its guideposts the moral standards of our societys Christian history are no different from those on the opposite side (liberals, socialists) who, if not uniformly godless, are nevertheless governed by little more than whatever it is that they feel like doing.

Precisely...

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

That's probably true. But on the other hand, it is silly to try to argue that the side (conservative) which has as one of its guideposts the moral standards of our societys Christian history are no different from those on the opposite side (liberals, socialists) who, if not uniformly godless, are nevertheless governed by little more than whatever it is that they feel like doing.

In Australia liberal/conservative politics is a poor predictor of theological stance. Perhaps that is different n the USA.

 

[Josiah]

In Australia liberal/conservative politics is a poor predictor of theological stance. Perhaps that is different n the USA.

In the USA, the moral stance of our parties is governed by party alliances and the ability to garner votes.


EXAMPLES: Bill Clinton began his career in Arkansas - a socially conservative state - and thus was very prolife (as was the Democrat party in that state). His VP, Al Gore, began his career in TN which was another socially conservative state and so also was passionately pro-life, voting solidly pro-life in the US Senate and actually a keynote speaker at a National Pro-Life Convention. But NATIONALLY, the Democrat Party is in close association with several socially liberal groups (including Planned Parenthood) and it would be impossible for either to run for national office and be pro-life. So they both switched (very suddenly) and became pro-choice. Lest I pick on the Democrats, the same thing in reverse happened with Ronald Reagan (who signed into law the most liberal Abortion bill in the country, before Roe v Wade, in California) and George Bush Sr. who was on Planned Parenthood's board of directors before he was picked as Reagan's running mate (and made the same, sudden conversion that Reagan did 4 years earlier). Disgusting, ain't it?


Political Parties in the USA. Unlike in most nations, in the USA there are just two political parties. Both are very loose associations of "special interest" groups that have come together with a "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours." This seems to work far better than dozens of separate parties. But these special interest groups - while agreeing to mutually help each other, politically - struggle for power within the party, for control and dominance. Thus, there is an evolution in both parties. And SOMETIMES, this struggle is so big that a special interest actually switches sides! Civil Rights was a solidly REPUBLICAN issue from Lincoln until 1964 when the whole 'civil rights' leadership switched to the Democratic Party where it has been powerful ever since. The DEMOCRAT party was the pro-life party (Republicans being very libertarian on most social issues) until 1976 when the pro-lifers moved over to the Republican side (this is when Ronald Reagan switched, seeing the alignment change that was happening)



- Josiah

 

[Albion]

In Australia liberal/conservative politics is a poor predictor of theological stance. Perhaps that is different n the USA.

I suppose Australia might have its own set of ethics, but there's nothing especially American about the positions/views of conservatives and liberals as I referred to them in my post. Edmund Burke wasn't an American conservative and Karl Marx was not an American liberal.

 

[Arsenios]

In the USA, the moral stance of our parties is governed by party alliances and the ability to garner votes.


EXAMPLES: Bill Clinton began his career in Arkansas - a socially conservative state - and thus was very prolife (as was the Democrat party in that state). His VP, Al Gore, began his career in TN which was another socially conservative state and so also was passionately pro-life, voting solidly pro-life in the US Senate and actually a keynote speaker at a National Pro-Life Convention. But NATIONALLY, the Democrat Party is in close association with several socially liberal groups (including Planned Parenthood) and it would be impossible for either to run for national office and be pro-life. So they both switched (very suddenly) and became pro-choice. Lest I pick on the Democrats, the same thing in reverse happened with Ronald Reagan (who signed into law the most liberal Abortion bill in the country, before Roe v Wade, in California) and George Bush Sr. who was on Planned Parenthood's board of directors before he was picked as Reagan's running mate (and made the same, sudden conversion that Reagan did 4 years earlier). Disgusting, ain't it?


Political Parties in the USA. Unlike in most nations, in the USA there are just two political parties. Both are very loose associations of "special interest" groups that have come together with a "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours." This seems to work far better than dozens of separate parties. But these special interest groups - while agreeing to mutually help each other, politically - struggle for power within the party, for control and dominance. Thus, there is an evolution in both parties. And SOMETIMES, this struggle is so big that a special interest actually switches sides! Civil Rights was a solidly REPUBLICAN issue from Lincoln until 1964 when the whole 'civil rights' leadership switched to the Democratic Party where it has been powerful ever since. The DEMOCRAT party was the pro-life party (Republicans being very libertarian on most social issues) until 1976 when the pro-lifers moved over to the Republican side (this is when Ronald Reagan switched, seeing the alignment change that was happening)

Josiah

Nice post, explaining why Trump got elected, being neither R or D, but running as an R...

Voters got fed up with the bureaucratic-oppressive state, and brought in an outsider to cut it back to its constitutional limits of intrusion and disregard for law... The problem is that by its bureaucratic sovereignty, there is no law, but only the rule of men in their tsardoms of administrative authoritarian rule, and at the top, eggregious crimes go unpunished because their perpetrators are protecting their own bureaucratic fiefdoms...

And America got fed up with the corruption and lawlessness, of the political weaponization of the IRS, the CIA, the FBI, and the rest of the power establishment of the institutions of the USA... So we get the guy who knows how to win in the White House who is a counter-puncher and a leader... Who keeps his word, whose words are not mere 'rhetoric' but actualy promises which he keeps...

And placing Constitutional Judges in the supreme Court...

The draining of the swamp is underway, and the creatures loyally concealed therein are being dragged out into the light, while most are being dismissed from their anti-American fiefdoms...

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

In Australia both the conservative party and the left-leaning party are predominantly pro-abortion (or pro-choice). The conservative party/parties in Australia is referred to as The coalition and it is made up of the city based Liberal Party of Australia and the rural based National Party while the left leaning parties are The Australian Labor Party and The Greens. There's a smattering of tiny parties that rarely win any representatives in the the House of Representatives and a few independent members of the House of Representatives. The senate is mostly Liberal, Labor, and Green with some weird groups accounting for 11 senators out of 76 senators.

 

[atpollard]

An unborn child passport? That may be feasible in cases where pregnancy is obvious but what about early pregnancy terminations?

It would be problematic wouldn't it; legalising slavery I mean. If it happened then what could be done? Of course, at this time in history neither Canada nor Mexico have legal slavery and neither country looks as if it will ever introduce it.

I can’t really shake the feeling that killing unborn babies is about as popular with God as throwing infants into the fires of Molech was.
Practicality and Legality really doesn’t enter into it.

“Yes, the Nazi Holocaust is terrible, but be practical, what can we really do about it? It is perfectly legal in Germany.”

 

[atpollard]

But certainly we can not merely make abortion illegal in the US, but together with that law, establish streamlined adoption procedures for those mothers who do not want the responsibility of rearing their babies...

Most states have something called a haven law ... any woman can abandon any baby at any safe location (varies by state, but typically a hospital or police station) and they are guaranteed protection from any criminal charges (abandonment or neglect or endangerment) and after some brief waiting period, the parental rights are terminated and the baby is available for adoption.

It would be trivially simple to establish uniform standards across the nation and accelerate the process. There are already adoption agencies willing to pay for the pre-natal care and delivery expenses as part of facilitating adoptions.