Should abortion be illegal?

[psalms 91]

That unless is the start of the slippery slope, which is part of the problem.

I think only the most hardcore opponents of abortion would demand that a woman continue a pregnancy even when medical advice says that it will kill her. In a situation like that you'd really struggle to justify telling her she has to have the baby.

A good friend of mine had an abortion under circumstances much like that. She was about 7 months pregnant and learned that the baby was badly malformed, had a near-zero chance of surviving more than a few days after birth and was unlikely to even make it that long because continuing the pregnancy would put the mother's life in serious danger. She and her husband desperately wanted that baby but concluded that the only sensible option was to abort it. It's easy to regard abortion as a black and white issue if you haven't been through something like that. (Thankfully my friends now have two healthy children - that issue was a one-off)

The problem comes when trying to determine at what point "harm to the mother" or "harm to the baby" becomes an acceptable reason to terminate a pregnancy. In a case where the mother's life is literally on the line if she continues the pregnancy it's pretty straightforward. But what about where mental health is concerned? Who makes the call whether a mother will be harmed? If abortion were outlawed entirely my friend would have had the choice between gambling with her life or going to an illegal backstreet abortion clinic. But as soon as you allow abortion to protect the mother from harm you open the doors to a pregnant woman finding a sympathetic doctor who is willing to state that having a baby would be detrimental to her mental health and you're right back to where we are now.

Other complications exist in cases like rape. I think you'd have to be pretty unsympathetic to a rape victim to tell her that she wasn't allowed to abort the child, that she had to carry it to term and give it up for adoption if she didn't want to keep it. But if you allow a rape victim to terminate her pregnancy you just create a perverse incentive for women to claim they were raped as a means to qualify for an abortion.

I know there is a lot of sympathy for a rape victim which there should be but there are options other than abortion such as adoption.

 

[NewCreation435]

Yes, it should be illegal

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

What shall we do with the "lawbreakers"?

 

[MoreCoffee]

What shall we do with the "lawbreakers"?

I've been asking that for a while, thanks for asking too. If a law makes it illegal then what happens to those who break the law and if it is murder what ought to happen to them, both the doctor and the mother whenever the mother procures the abortion willingly and freely herself. It's one thing to say "it ought to be illegal" and "it is murder" and it is an altogether different thing to say "what penalty should be applied for breaking the law, if it is murder to break it?"

 

[psalms 91]

I've been asking that for a while, thanks for asking too. If a law makes it illegal then what happens to those who break the law and if it is murder what ought to happen to them, both the doctor and the mother whenever the mother procures the abortion willingly and freely herself. It's one thing to say "it ought to be illegal" and "it is murder" and it is an altogether different thing to say "what penalty should be applied for breaking the law, if it is murder to break it?"

There are already laws that deal with that

 

[MoreCoffee]

There are already laws that deal with that

Does that mean life imprisonment in some states of the USA and the death penalty in other states of the USA; death or life imprisonment for both the doctor performing the abortion and the mother who freely and willingly procured it?

 

[psalms 91]

Thats the law MC although I think that the legislatures should look at this and perhaps make the penelties lesser. The doctor lose his license and 5 years in prison. The mother a range so it can be judges on a case by case basis. To me that would be fair since they would knowingly violate the law and now the penelties associated with it

 

[MoreCoffee]

Thats the law MC although I think that the legislatures should look at this and perhaps make the penelties lesser. The doctor lose his license and 5 years in prison. The mother a range so it can be judges on a case by case basis. To me that would be fair since they would knowingly violate the law and now the penelties associated with it

Do you really think that the penalties ought to be less serious for the murder of an unborn infant than the penalties for the murder of a born child?

 

[Albion]

I've been asking that for a while, thanks for asking too. If a law makes it illegal then what happens to those who break the law and if it is murder what ought to happen to them, both the doctor and the mother whenever the mother procures the abortion willingly and freely herself. It's one thing to say "it ought to be illegal" and "it is murder" and it is an altogether different thing to say "what penalty should be applied for breaking the law, if it is murder to break it?"

I am skeptical about that being the question. It ought to be, Will there be a criminal penalty, yes or no?

If we get into arguing over how many years in jail, etc., we will only be obscuring the real issue.

 

[tango]

I know there is a lot of sympathy for a rape victim which there should be but there are options other than abortion such as adoption.

Yes there are, but now you're telling a rape victim that not only did she suffer the assault but she also has to deal with a pregnancy and all that is involved, for the sake of the child of the man who raped her.

 

[psalms 91]

Yes there are, but now you're telling a rape victim that not only did she suffer the assault but she also has to deal with a pregnancy and all that is involved, for the sake of the child of the man who raped her.

Yes I would. I do not believe in abortion period unless the life of the mother is at stake. Murder doesnt change just because of an unfortunate circumstance. I have all the sympathy in the world for a woman in that position and would support counseling and any other services that would benefit her but who speaks for the child not yet born? You can complicate it all you want but murder is still murder and an unborn child is still being terminated to put it in their language which means murdered

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Thats the law MC although I think that the legislatures should look at this and perhaps make the penelties lesser. The doctor lose his license and 5 years in prison. The mother a range so it can be judges on a case by case basis. To me that would be fair since they would knowingly violate the law and now the penelties associated with it

I think those who go through an abortion are already aware of having violated the "law" as it were. We are not left without a "Law Giver" in this life, even though we'd sometimes like to deny that. Although I've stated my views on legality, the best approach is compassion for the person. Someone mentioned power dynamics previously (the "powerful" and the
"powerless"). Those with "power" under the law would, I hope, be compassionate enough to assist with whatever healing the person might need

 

[tango]

Yes I would. I do not believe in abortion period unless the life of the mother is at stake. Murder doesnt change just because of an unfortunate circumstance. I have all the sympathy in the world for a woman in that position and would support counseling and any other services that would benefit her but who speaks for the child not yet born? You can complicate it all you want but murder is still murder and an unborn child is still being terminated to put it in their language which means murdered

The thing is it's very easy to say things like this from a position of never having to go through it yourself.

Just like my friend who aborted the baby she so desperately wanted because the option was that if she survived to actually give birth the chances were the baby would survive a few days at most. It's easy to say that abortion is murder with no ifs and no buts but if you really want to go there you have to call my friend a baby killer. She desperately wanted that baby and was heartbroken to have to terminate it. But her option was to literally risk her own life. She didn't want an abortion, and as soon as her doctor said it was safe she and her husband were trying for another baby (they now have two healthy children).

Likewise it's easy to sit and lay down your demands to a rape victim when you don't have to go through them all. What happens if there are complications? What level of medical intervention would you expect her to tolerate to maintain her unwanted pregnancy, and who would you expect to pay for that medical intervention? What if she decided not to accept treatment that might prove necessary to carry the child to term?

I can't help thinking that in many ways unless we are willing to come alongside a woman seeking an abortion and stay with her through the process we would prefer her to take, providing practical and financial support as required, and maybe even adopting the baby ourselves, insisting that she doesn't have an abortion because we say it's wrong rings very hollow. Of course it takes a lot more of ourselves to offer whatever practical and financial help is needed, rather than taking a stance that comes across as little more than "God, I thank you I am not like this person here".

 

[psalms 91]

The thing is it's very easy to say things like this from a position of never having to go through it yourself.

Just like my friend who aborted the baby she so desperately wanted because the option was that if she survived to actually give birth the chances were the baby would survive a few days at most. It's easy to say that abortion is murder with no ifs and no buts but if you really want to go there you have to call my friend a baby killer. She desperately wanted that baby and was heartbroken to have to terminate it. But her option was to literally risk her own life. She didn't want an abortion, and as soon as her doctor said it was safe she and her husband were trying for another baby (they now have two healthy children).

Likewise it's easy to sit and lay down your demands to a rape victim when you don't have to go through them all. What happens if there are complications? What level of medical intervention would you expect her to tolerate to maintain her unwanted pregnancy, and who would you expect to pay for that medical intervention? What if she decided not to accept treatment that might prove necessary to carry the child to term?

I can't help thinking that in many ways unless we are willing to come alongside a woman seeking an abortion and stay with her through the process we would prefer her to take, providing practical and financial support as required, and maybe even adopting the baby ourselves, insisting that she doesn't have an abortion because we say it's wrong rings very hollow. Of course it takes a lot more of ourselves to offer whatever practical and financial help is needed, rather than taking a stance that comes across as little more than "God, I thank you I am not like this person here".

I dont have to call anyone anything. What does the bible say? How do you think God views this? Whitewash it any way you wish bottom line is that it is murder and it takes a life and prevents it from being born. Until you can change that then it is what it is.

 

[Albion]

The thing is it's very easy to say things like this from a position of never having to go through it yourself.

Just like my friend who aborted the baby she so desperately wanted because the option was that if she survived to actually give birth the chances were the baby would survive a few days at most. It's easy to say that abortion is murder with no ifs and no buts but if you really want to go there you have to call my friend a baby killer.

Once again, it looks like "what ifs" are being thrown in the way of saying what abortion is. If we look at murders as we already know and deal with them, we all know that extenuating circumstances affect the legal process, just as happens with other crimes.

So if there are a few--and I emphasize few--extenuating circumstances that might affect the sentencing meted out to someone charged with the murder of an unborn infant, its still a homicide! But, of course, that is not so if the act is never to be considered be a crime in the first place under any circumstances.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Should the penalties be less serious for the murder of an unborn infant than the penalties for the murder of a born child?

 

[atpollard]

What shall we do with the "lawbreakers"?

[Lev 24:17-23 NASB] 17 'If a man takes the life of any human being, he shall surely be put to death. 18 'The one who takes the life of an animal shall make it good, life for life. 19 'If a man injures his neighbor, just as he has done, so it shall be done to him: 20 fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth; just as he has injured a man, so it shall be inflicted on him. 21 'Thus the one who kills an animal shall make it good, but the one who kills a man shall be put to death. 22 'There shall be one standard for you; it shall be for the stranger as well as the native, for I am the LORD your God.'" 23 Then Moses spoke to the sons of Israel, and they brought the one who had cursed outside the camp and stoned him with stones. Thus the sons of Israel did, just as the LORD had commanded Moses.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

[Lev 24:17-23 NASB] 17 'If a man takes the life of any human being, he shall surely be put to death. 18 'The one who takes the life of an animal shall make it good, life for life. 19 'If a man injures his neighbor, just as he has done, so it shall be done to him: 20 fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth; just as he has injured a man, so it shall be inflicted on him. 21 'Thus the one who kills an animal shall make it good, but the one who kills a man shall be put to death. 22 'There shall be one standard for you; it shall be for the stranger as well as the native, for I am the LORD your God.'" 23 Then Moses spoke to the sons of Israel, and they brought the one who had cursed outside the camp and stoned him with stones. Thus the sons of Israel did, just as the LORD had commanded Moses.

Good. Good. -__-

 

[Andrew]

What shall we do with the "lawbreakers"?

Exactly.
God no longer has Israelites preparing to wipe out the Canaanites and our justice system is only so strong, we could somewhat 'compromise' with them but of course we couldn't control 'will' over them and they will just end up punching themselves in the stomach to kill it.
The fact is that they are completely Godless for even in the case of rape -the party should come out strength worthy and at least consider the life rather than neglect it with such 'normalcy'.
God will separate and we can only keep doing what we are doing.

 

[MoreCoffee]

A Christian can rightly say that abortion is immoral without desiring that the state and all the authority of the state be applied to make abortion illegal.