Salvation

[Arsenios]

The RC is wrong. It's that simple. MC is presenting a denominational falsehood.

Then please say that, and do not call it CRAP, OK?

Thanks to Lammchen for admonishing you to reign it in a little...

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Salvation is a grace from God, a gift given to all who are in Christ. Faith is an exercise of mind and will as well as heart and body. A person can choose to believe or not to believe what God says to him. Assurance of salvation is not a promise given by God to a chap living today. That's the facts.

You're simply wrong about faith, MC. This trickles down to other areas like your attempt to merge demon belief in God with faith. They are separate. God has not given demons the gift of faith because he has withheld his saving grace. Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us very clearly that faith is a gift given so that we cannot boast.
Sadly, you have a wrong opinion that you are pushing as fact. No matter how you slice it, your opinion is wrong.

 

[MennoSota]

Then please say that, and do not call it CRAP, OK?

Thanks to Lammchen for admonishing you to reign it in a little...

Arsenios

Would piece of garbage be acceptable? How about dung heap? The Bible talks about dung. Can I call it a piece of dung?
It's interesting how tied to denomination people are at the CH. I find that tight tethering quite fascinating.

 

[Lamb]

Would piece of garbage be acceptable? How about dung heap? The Bible talks about dung. Can I call it a piece of dung?
It's interesting how tied to denomination people are at the CH. I find that tight tethering quite fascinating.

It would be nice if you could just discuss without having to post any insult at all

 

[MoreCoffee]

Law and Grace

Catholic teaching on salvation is available to anybody who wants to read it.

God's Salvation: Law and Grace

THE MORAL LAW

415. What is the moral law?

The moral law is a work of divine Wisdom. It prescribes the ways and the rules of conduct that lead to the promised beatitude and it forbids the ways that turn away from God.

416. In what does the natural moral law consist?

The natural law which is inscribed by the Creator on the heart of every person consists in a participation in the wisdom and the goodness of God. It expresses that original moral sense which enables one to discern by reason the good and the bad. It is universal and immutable and determines the basis of the duties and fundamental rights of the person as well as those of the human community and civil law.

417. Is such a law perceived by everyone?

Because of sin the natural law is not always perceived nor is it recognized by everyone with equal clarity and immediacy.

For this reason God “wrote on the tables of the Law what men did not read in their hearts.” (Saint Augustine)

418. What is the relationship between the natural law and the Old Law?

The Old Law is the first stage of revealed Law. It expresses many truths naturally accessible to reason and which are thus affirmed and authenticated in the covenant of salvation. Its moral prescriptions, which are summed up in the Ten Commandments of the Decalogue, lay the foundations of the human vocation, prohibit what is contrary to the love of God and neighbour, and prescribe what is essential to it.

419. What place does the Old Law have in the plan of salvation?

The Old Law permitted one to know many truths which are accessible to reason, showed what must or must not be done and, above all, like a wise tutor, prepared and disposed one for conversion and for the acceptance of the Gospel. However, while being holy, spiritual, and good, the Old Law was still imperfect because in itself it did not give the strength and the grace of the Spirit for its observance.

420. What is the New Law or the Law of the Gospel?

The New Law or the Law of the Gospel, proclaimed and fulfilled by Christ, is the fullness and completion of the divine law, natural and revealed. It is summed up in the commandment to love God and neighbour and to love one another as Christ loved us. It is also an interior reality: the grace of the Holy Spirit which makes possible such love. It is “the law of freedom” (Galatians 1:25) because it inclines us to act spontaneously by the prompting of charity.

“The New Law is mainly the same grace of the Holy Spirit which is given to believers in Christ.” (Saint Thomas Aquinas)

421. Where does one find the New Law?

The New Law is found in the entire life and preaching of Christ and in the moral catechesis of the apostles. The Sermon on the Mount is its principal expression.

GRACE AND JUSTIFICATION

422. What is justification?

Justification is the most excellent work of God's love. It is the merciful and freely-given act of God which takes away our sins and makes us just and holy in our whole being. It is brought about by means of the grace of the Holy Spirit which has been merited for us by the passion of Christ and is given to us in Baptism. Justification is the beginning of the free response of man, that is, faith in Christ and of cooperation with the grace of the Holy Spirit.

423. What is the grace that justifies?

That grace is the gratuitous gift that God gives us to make us participants in his trinitarian life and able to act by his love. It is called habitual, sanctifying or deifying grace because it sanctifies and divinizes us. It is supernatural because it depends entirely on God’s gratuitous initiative and surpasses the abilities of the intellect and the powers of human beings. It therefore escapes our experience.

424. What other kinds of grace are there?

Besides habitual grace, there are actual graces (gifts for specific circumstances), sacramental graces (gifts proper to each sacrament), special graces or charisms (gifts that are intended for the common good of the Church) among which are the graces of state that accompany the exercise of ecclesial ministries and the responsibilities of life.

425. What is the relationship between grace and human freedom?

Grace precedes, prepares and elicits our free response. It responds to the deep yearnings of human freedom, calls for its cooperation and leads freedom toward its perfection.

426. What is merit?

In general merit refers to the right to recompense for a good deed. With regard to God, we of ourselves are not able to merit anything, having received everything freely from him. However, God gives us the possibility of acquiring merit through union with the love of Christ, who is the source of our merits before God. The merits for good works, therefore must be attributed in the first place to the grace of God and then to the free will of man.

427. What are the goods that we can merit?

Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods, suitable for us, can be merited in accordance with the plan of God. No one, however, can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion and justification.

428. Are all called to Christian holiness?

All the faithful are called to Christian holiness. This is the fullness of Christian life and the perfection of charity and it is brought about by intimate union with Christ and, in him, with the most Holy Trinity. The path to holiness for a Christian goes by way of the cross and will come to its fulfilment in the final resurrection of the just, in which God will be all in all.

 

[MennoSota]

Perfect example of the RC muddling it all up.

Catholic teaching on salvation is available to anybody who wants to read it.

God's Salvation: Law and Grace

THE MORAL LAW

415. What is the moral law?

The moral law is a work of divine Wisdom. It prescribes the ways and the rules of conduct that lead to the promised beatitude and it forbids the ways that turn away from God.

416. In what does the natural moral law consist?

The natural law which is inscribed by the Creator on the heart of every person consists in a participation in the wisdom and the goodness of God. It expresses that original moral sense which enables one to discern by reason the good and the bad. It is universal and immutable and determines the basis of the duties and fundamental rights of the person as well as those of the human community and civil law.

417. Is such a law perceived by everyone?

Because of sin the natural law is not always perceived nor is it recognized by everyone with equal clarity and immediacy.

For this reason God “wrote on the tables of the Law what men did not read in their hearts.” (Saint Augustine)

418. What is the relationship between the natural law and the Old Law?

The Old Law is the first stage of revealed Law. It expresses many truths naturally accessible to reason and which are thus affirmed and authenticated in the covenant of salvation. Its moral prescriptions, which are summed up in the Ten Commandments of the Decalogue, lay the foundations of the human vocation, prohibit what is contrary to the love of God and neighbour, and prescribe what is essential to it.

419. What place does the Old Law have in the plan of salvation?

The Old Law permitted one to know many truths which are accessible to reason, showed what must or must not be done and, above all, like a wise tutor, prepared and disposed one for conversion and for the acceptance of the Gospel. However, while being holy, spiritual, and good, the Old Law was still imperfect because in itself it did not give the strength and the grace of the Spirit for its observance.

420. What is the New Law or the Law of the Gospel?

The New Law or the Law of the Gospel, proclaimed and fulfilled by Christ, is the fullness and completion of the divine law, natural and revealed. It is summed up in the commandment to love God and neighbour and to love one another as Christ loved us. It is also an interior reality: the grace of the Holy Spirit which makes possible such love. It is “the law of freedom” (Galatians 1:25) because it inclines us to act spontaneously by the prompting of charity.

“The New Law is mainly the same grace of the Holy Spirit which is given to believers in Christ.” (Saint Thomas Aquinas)

421. Where does one find the New Law?

The New Law is found in the entire life and preaching of Christ and in the moral catechesis of the apostles. The Sermon on the Mount is its principal expression.

GRACE AND JUSTIFICATION

422. What is justification?

Justification is the most excellent work of God's love. It is the merciful and freely-given act of God which takes away our sins and makes us just and holy in our whole being. It is brought about by means of the grace of the Holy Spirit which has been merited for us by the passion of Christ and is given to us in Baptism. Justification is the beginning of the free response of man, that is, faith in Christ and of cooperation with the grace of the Holy Spirit.

423. What is the grace that justifies?

That grace is the gratuitous gift that God gives us to make us participants in his trinitarian life and able to act by his love. It is called habitual, sanctifying or deifying grace because it sanctifies and divinizes us. It is supernatural because it depends entirely on God’s gratuitous initiative and surpasses the abilities of the intellect and the powers of human beings. It therefore escapes our experience.

424. What other kinds of grace are there?

Besides habitual grace, there are actual graces (gifts for specific circumstances), sacramental graces (gifts proper to each sacrament), special graces or charisms (gifts that are intended for the common good of the Church) among which are the graces of state that accompany the exercise of ecclesial ministries and the responsibilities of life.

425. What is the relationship between grace and human freedom?

Grace precedes, prepares and elicits our free response. It responds to the deep yearnings of human freedom, calls for its cooperation and leads freedom toward its perfection.

426. What is merit?

In general merit refers to the right to recompense for a good deed. With regard to God, we of ourselves are not able to merit anything, having received everything freely from him. However, God gives us the possibility of acquiring merit through union with the love of Christ, who is the source of our merits before God. The merits for good works, therefore must be attributed in the first place to the grace of God and then to the free will of man.

427. What are the goods that we can merit?

Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods, suitable for us, can be merited in accordance with the plan of God. No one, however, can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion and justification.

428. Are all called to Christian holiness?

All the faithful are called to Christian holiness. This is the fullness of Christian life and the perfection of charity and it is brought about by intimate union with Christ and, in him, with the most Holy Trinity. The path to holiness for a Christian goes by way of the cross and will come to its fulfilment in the final resurrection of the just, in which God will be all in all.

From the RC:

Old Law was still imperfect because in itself it did not give the strength and the grace of the Spirit for its observance.

From the Bible:
Psalm 19:7-9
*

7The law of the LORD is perfect,
reviving the soul; the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple;
8the precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes;
9the fear of the LORD is clean,
enduring forever; the rules of the LORD are true, and righteous altogether.

Romans 7:7-12
*

7 What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. 10 The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. 11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

It's amazing how the RC makes things up and then writes so much jibberish into their catechism that people just seem to figure that all the writing must be accurate. Sadly, as anyone can see (if they read what MC posted) the RC badly misses the mark. Woe to those who follow the teachings of the RC. They will point you toward hell.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The law is imperfect as a way of salvation because it cannot save people. And since this thread is about Salvation and the CCC Compendium quote is dealing with Salvation it is quite right to point to the Law's incapacity.

Romans 8:1 THERE is now therefore no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh. 2For the law of the spirit of life, in Christ Jesus, hath delivered me from the law of sin and of death. 3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh; God sending his own Son, in the likeness of sinful flesh and of sin, hath condemned sin in the flesh; 4That the justification of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the spirit. 5For they that are according to the flesh, mind the things that are of the flesh; but they that are according to the spirit, mind the things that are of the spirit. 6For the wisdom of the flesh is death; but the wisdom of the spirit is life and peace. 7Because the wisdom of the flesh is an enemy to God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither can it be. 8And they who are in the flesh, cannot please God.

Hebrews 7:11 If then perfection was by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchisedech, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? 12For the priesthood being translated, it is necessary that a translation also be made of the law. 13For he, of whom these things are spoken, is of another tribe, of which no one attended on the altar. 14For it is evident that our Lord sprung out of Juda: in which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priests. 15And it is yet far more evident: if according to the similitude of Melchisedech there ariseth another priest, 16Who is made not according to the law of a carnal commandment, but according to the power of an indissoluble life:
17For he testifieth: Thou art a priest for ever, according to the order of Melchisedech.
18There is indeed a setting aside of the former commandment, because of the weakness and unprofitableness thereof: 19(For the law brought nothing to perfection,) but a bringing in of a better hope, by which we draw nigh to God. 20And inasmuch as it is not without an oath, (for the others indeed were made priests without an oath;
21But this with an oath, by him that said unto him: The Lord hath sworn, and he will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever.)
22By so much is Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
23And the others indeed were made many priests, because by reason of death they were not suffered to continue: 24But this, for that he continueth for ever, hath an everlasting priesthood, 25Whereby he is able also to save for ever them that come to God by him; always living to make intercession for us.
26For it was fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27Who needeth not daily (as the other priests) to offer sacrifices first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, in offering himself. 28For the law maketh men priests, who have infirmity: but the word of the oath, which was since the law, the Son who is perfected for evermore.

Every Christian who is instructed in the gospel knows these passages. The CCC Compendium relies on its readers being either well instructed or being in the process of being instructed in the lessons of the gospel. But if the references alluded to in the CCC Compendium escaped the notice of a reader then rest assured that they did not escape the notice of the authors who supply footnotes and references back to the Catechism of the Catholic Church in which the scripture passages are listed for the benefit of the instructed as well as the instructors.

 

[RichWh1]

As long as salvation remains biblical and not doctrinal or man made conjecture.

 

[MoreCoffee]

As long as salvation remains biblical and not doctrinal or man made conjecture.

Christians are not like Muslims because Christians do not believe that the holy scriptures descended from heaven to be recited by an angel in the hearing of a scribe who wrote as he heard nor do Christians believe that the holy scriptures are a perfect book of everlasting value preserved in their original manuscript in the heavens. So when you look for things that are not man made you're looking in the wrong place if you look to the holy scriptures. As the scriptures say of themselves 2Peter 1:20 Know this well: no prophecy of Scripture can be handed over to private interpretation, 21 since no prophecy comes from human decision, for it was men of God, moved by the Holy Spirit, who spoke.

 

[Arsenios]

Would piece of garbage be acceptable?

As your personal confession?

Then yes, and more than acceptable, as welcomed!

How about dung heap?

Even better...

The Bible talks about dung.

We already know it is your treasury...

Can I call it a piece of dung?

The condition of your soul? I would not go that far...

You will actually do better to show the reasons why you believe as you do,
and then avoid demonizing those with whom you disagree...

Calling their faith dung and garbage here is just wrong...
Monkeys at the zoo throw dung at spectators...
That does not make it appropriate here, Menno...

So please, take Lammchen's rebuke like a man...
And not like a mouthy little back-taking disrespectful brat...
Just man up - A thank-you instead of self-justification...

May God-Bless You Menno...

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

Brother Arsenios, it does no good to respond in kind to wicked words from another poster. Better to see them and let them disappear in silence. Better still is not to see them and let them disappear through lack of response and lack of interest.

May God have mercy on us all.

 

[MennoSota]

The law is imperfect as a way of salvation because it cannot save people. And since this thread is about Salvation and the CCC Compendium quote is dealing with Salvation it is quite right to point to the Law's incapacity.

Romans 8:1 THERE is now therefore no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh. 2For the law of the spirit of life, in Christ Jesus, hath delivered me from the law of sin and of death. 3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh; God sending his own Son, in the likeness of sinful flesh and of sin, hath condemned sin in the flesh; 4That the justification of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the spirit. 5For they that are according to the flesh, mind the things that are of the flesh; but they that are according to the spirit, mind the things that are of the spirit. 6For the wisdom of the flesh is death; but the wisdom of the spirit is life and peace. 7Because the wisdom of the flesh is an enemy to God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither can it be. 8And they who are in the flesh, cannot please God.

Hebrews 7:11 If then perfection was by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchisedech, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? 12For the priesthood being translated, it is necessary that a translation also be made of the law. 13For he, of whom these things are spoken, is of another tribe, of which no one attended on the altar. 14For it is evident that our Lord sprung out of Juda: in which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priests. 15And it is yet far more evident: if according to the similitude of Melchisedech there ariseth another priest, 16Who is made not according to the law of a carnal commandment, but according to the power of an indissoluble life:
17For he testifieth: Thou art a priest for ever, according to the order of Melchisedech.
18There is indeed a setting aside of the former commandment, because of the weakness and unprofitableness thereof: 19(For the law brought nothing to perfection,) but a bringing in of a better hope, by which we draw nigh to God. 20And inasmuch as it is not without an oath, (for the others indeed were made priests without an oath;
21But this with an oath, by him that said unto him: The Lord hath sworn, and he will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever.)
22By so much is Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
23And the others indeed were made many priests, because by reason of death they were not suffered to continue: 24But this, for that he continueth for ever, hath an everlasting priesthood, 25Whereby he is able also to save for ever them that come to God by him; always living to make intercession for us.
26For it was fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27Who needeth not daily (as the other priests) to offer sacrifices first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, in offering himself. 28For the law maketh men priests, who have infirmity: but the word of the oath, which was since the law, the Son who is perfected for evermore.

Every Christian who is instructed in the gospel knows these passages. The CCC Compendium relies on its readers being either well instructed or being in the process of being instructed in the lessons of the gospel. But if the references alluded to in the CCC Compendium escaped the notice of a reader then rest assured that they did not escape the notice of the authors who supply footnotes and references back to the Catechism of the Catholic Church in which the scripture passages are listed for the benefit of the instructed as well as the instructors.

The law was never given as a means of salvation. This is why Joshua's "Choose you this day whom you will serve" has nothing to do with salvation.
Paul tells us that the purpose of the law is to reveal our sin in breaking the law. The law is perfect as...the law. The law is used by the Judge to sentence and condemn. It does a perfect job of revealing our hopeless position before God who rightly judges us as missing the mark and guilty of breaking the law.
The RC misses this and thus makes a claim that is not supported by scripture.
When a person reads the RC catechism, it becomes obvious that the RC purposely muddies up the wording to make it nearly impossible to clearly understand their point. But, if a person wades through the garbage and extraneous material, the core presentation is not biblically based, but is church dogma based. No one should cling tightly to the RC catechism. It will lead you toward hell rather than heaven.

 

[MennoSota]

Christians are not like Muslims because Christians do not believe that the holy scriptures descended from heaven to be recited by an angel in the hearing of a scribe who wrote as he heard nor do Christians believe that the holy scriptures are a perfect book of everlasting value preserved in their original manuscript in the heavens. So when you look for things that are not man made you're looking in the wrong place if you look to the holy scriptures. As the scriptures say of themselves 2Peter 1:20 Know this well: no prophecy of Scripture can be handed over to private interpretation, 21 since no prophecy comes from human decision, for it was men of God, moved by the Holy Spirit, who spoke.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
16*All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17*that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

 

[MennoSota]

As your personal confession?

Then yes, and more than acceptable, as welcomed!



Even better...



We already know it is your treasury...



The condition of your soul? I would not go that far...

You will actually do better to show the reasons why you believe as you do,
and then avoid demonizing those with whom you disagree...

Calling their faith dung and garbage here is just wrong...
Monkeys at the zoo throw dung at spectators...
That does not make it appropriate here, Menno...

So please, take Lammchen's rebuke like a man...
And not like a mouthy little back-taking disrespectful brat...
Just man up - A thank-you instead of self-justification...

May God-Bless You Menno...

Arsenios

We are talking about the garbage put out by the RC, correct?

 

[MennoSota]

Brother Arsenios, it does no good to respond in kind to wicked words from another poster. Better to see them and let them disappear in silence. Better still is not to see them and let them disappear through lack of response and lack of interest.

May God have mercy on us all.

MC, I respond to the falsehood of the RC as it relates to salvation. I admonish you to leave the RC.

 

[Arsenios]

We are talking about the garbage put out by the RC, correct?

We are talking about garbage and dung coming out of your mouth
And from your mouth onto the printed pages of this discussion...

You injected this poison onto this discussion...
You are refusing moderation rebuke...
You continue to use the words garbage and dung in castigating others...

I am simply calling you out on your spoiled bully-brat behavior...
I have been banned on other forums for doing this...
When moderators will not enforce civil behavior...

You need to man up, and not be a potty mouthed little name-calling brat...
This is a place where adults want to discuss theology...

Lord have Mercy!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Brother Arsenios, it does no good to respond in kind to wicked words from another poster. Better to see them and let them disappear in silence. Better still is not to see them and let them disappear through lack of response and lack of interest.

May God have mercy on us all.

Thank-you for your kind intention...

I just want to follow this line for a post or two...

I did look for but did not find the ignore feature...

He does seem to enjoy biting...

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

I wonder if use of "ignore" is a grace that helps one stay on the road to salvation. If it is then follow these instructions.

Click "settings" on the top right hand side of the CH page. Then look for "My settings" on the left side of the page and under that group of options is a subgroup called "My Account" and in that subgroup is "Edit Ignore List". That is where the ignore options are if you want to use it.​

I suspect that CH chatting isn't a necessary part of salvation, but I could be wrong in some cases.

God be with us all and may he have mercy on us all.

 

[Arsenios]

I wonder if use of "ignore" is a grace that helps one stay on the road to salvation. If it is then follow these instructions.

Click "settings" on the top right hand side of the CH page. Then look for "My settings" on the left side of the page and under that group of options is a subgroup called "My Account" and in that subgroup is "Edit Ignore List". That is where the ignore options are if you want to use it.​

I suspect that CH chatting isn't a necessary part of salvation, but I could be wrong in some cases.

God be with us all and may he have mercy on us all.

Yet again I am in your debt...

Thank-you...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I wonder if use of "ignore" is a grace that helps one stay on the road to salvation. If it is then follow these instructions.

Click "settings" on the top right hand side of the CH page. Then look for "My settings" on the left side of the page and under that group of options is a subgroup called "My Account" and in that subgroup is "Edit Ignore List". That is where the ignore options are if you want to use it.​

I suspect that CH chatting isn't a necessary part of salvation, but I could be wrong in some cases.

God be with us all and may he have mercy on us all.

Yet again I am in your debt...

Thank-you...

There - I have him now on ignore...

A thorn, I say, pulled from my paw!

Arsenios