Salvation

[MoreCoffee]

Nevertheless Abram believed God

 

[MennoSota]

Nevertheless Abram believed God

So do I, but that faith is a gift from God, just as it was for Abraham.

 

[Arsenios]

Yikes. I know you don't want him to insult anyone but did you realize you flamed him in your post? "spoiled bully-brat behavior" "potty mouthed little name-calling brat"

Yes I did, and I now have him on ignore...

It's over...

Sorry for the ruckus...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

So...

IS Salvation about our entry into the Kingdom of Heaven?

OR...

Is it about forgiveness of sins "earned" by Christ for His "work" on the Cross?

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

So...

IS Salvation about our entry into the Kingdom of Heaven?

OR...

Is it about forgiveness of sins "earned" by Christ for His "work" on the Cross?

Arsenios

It is about God ripping us out of the kingdom of sin and death while placing us in the Kingdom of Righteousness by the atoning work of Christ alone.
Because of God's saving work, we are no longer slaves to sin. We are adopted sons/daughters of the living God. Amazing grace!

 

[MoreCoffee]

So do I, but that faith is a gift from God, just as it was for Abraham.

Nevertheless it was Abram who believed. He did it. Not somebody else on his behalf. God did not believe for Abram, nor did an angel, nor another man, nor any creation except Abram himself, he believed.

 

[MennoSota]

Nevertheless it was Abram who believed. He did it. Not somebody else on his behalf. God did not believe for Abram, nor did an angel, nor another man, nor any creation except Abram himself, he believed.

No.
God gave Adam faith to believe. Adam acted on the faith God gave him. Adam gets no credit or merit.

 

[MoreCoffee]

No.
God gave Adam faith to believe. Adam acted on the faith God gave him. Adam gets no credit or merit.

It was Abram who believed. He did it. Not somebody else on his behalf. God did not believe for Abram, nor did an angel, nor another man, nor any creation except Abram himself, he believed. No amount of linguistic twisting and turning can make it otherwise. The holy scriptures say "Abram believed ... " not "Abram was given belief ..." many have tried to twist the scriptures to fit their theology but in the end the theology has to be amended to fit the scripture rather than the other way around.

Genesis 15:1 After this the word of Jehovah was spoken to Abram in a vision: “Do not be afraid, Abram, I am your shield; your reward will be very great!” 2 Abram said, “My Lord Jehovah, where are your promises? I am still childless and all I have will go to Eliezer of Damascus. 3 You have given me no children, so a slave of mine will be my heir.” 4 Then the word of Jehovah was spoken to him again, “Eliezer will not be your heir, but a child born of you (your own flesh and blood) will be your heir.” 5 Then Jehovah brought him outside and said to him, “Look up at the sky and count the stars if you can. Your descendants will be like that.” 6 Abram believed Jehovah who, be cause of this, held him to be an up right man. 7 And he said, “I am Jehovah who brought you from Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land as your possession.”

 

[MennoSota]

It was Abram who believed. He did it. Not somebody else on his behalf. God did not believe for Abram, nor did an angel, nor another man, nor any creation except Abram himself, he believed. No amount of linguistic twisting and turning can make it otherwise. The holy scriptures say "Abram believed ... " not "Abram was given belief ..." many have tried to twist the scriptures to fit their theology but in the end the theology has to be amended to fit the scripture rather than the other way around.

Genesis 15:1 After this the word of Jehovah was spoken to Abram in a vision: “Do not be afraid, Abram, I am your shield; your reward will be very great!” 2 Abram said, “My Lord Jehovah, where are your promises? I am still childless and all I have will go to Eliezer of Damascus. 3 You have given me no children, so a slave of mine will be my heir.” 4 Then the word of Jehovah was spoken to him again, “Eliezer will not be your heir, but a child born of you (your own flesh and blood) will be your heir.” 5 Then Jehovah brought him outside and said to him, “Look up at the sky and count the stars if you can. Your descendants will be like that.” 6 Abram believed Jehovah who, be cause of this, held him to be an up right man. 7 And he said, “I am Jehovah who brought you from Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land as your possession.”

Adam could never have believed without God calling him out. As a corrupt sinner Adam and Eve hid from the presence of God. Like all humanity, Adam could not conjure up the willpower to believe. He could only hide in sure knowledge that he was condemned.
God gave Adam faith. It was God doing it.

 

[TurtleHare]

Now what exactly did Adam and Abram believe because making it out as if its the believing that is the saving instead of the promise of God that saves is the wrong path. Faith comes from God in that he wants us to trust in his promise and its not the trusting but the promise that gives the salvation and that is the Savior which was proclaimed starting from Genesis until judgment day.

 

[RichWh1]

How did we get from Abram to Adam? Salvation is for all.

 

[MoreCoffee]

How did we get from Abram to Adam? Salvation is for all.

We got from Abram to Adam by means on one of those mysteries so common in chatting on a forum. Things appear as if by magic and other things disappear. The truth however is not like magic. The truth is that Christians are saved by grace. It is not something that they earn. Nor is it something that they do for themselves. It is a grace from God given in Jesus Christ to everyone who comes to the Lord for healing of their souls.

 

[MennoSota]

The truth however is not like magic. The truth is that Christians are saved by grace. It is not something that they earn. Nor is it something that they do for themselves. It is a grace from God given in Jesus Christ

to everyone who comes to the Lord for healing of their souls.

You had it...until the last phrase, MC. The Bible tells us that no one seeks God. Therefore no one comes to the Lord for healing. God must break in to the person's stronghold and rip her/him out of the chains that bind. You can't come to God when you are enslaved. God must come to you. It is that act of God which makes it salvation by grace.

 

[MoreCoffee]

You had it...until the last phrase, MC. The Bible tells us that no one seeks God. Therefore no one comes to the Lord for healing. God must break in to the person's stronghold and rip her/him out of the chains that bind. You can't come to God when you are enslaved. God must come to you. It is that act of God which makes it salvation by grace.

Ephesians 2:8-10 8 For by grace, you have been saved through faith. And this is not of yourselves, for it is a gift of God. 9 And this is not of works, so that no one may glory. 10 For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works which God has prepared and in which we should walk.
Matthew 11:28-30 28 Come to me, all you who labor and have been burdened, and I will refresh you. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am meek and humble of heart; and you shall find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is sweet and my burden is light."
take those two passages together and you can see the source for my statement, the one you partly agree with and partly reject. The part that you reject is taken from the words of Jesus Christ.

 

[MennoSota]

Ephesians 2:8-10 8 For by grace, you have been saved through faith. And this is not of yourselves, for it is a gift of God. 9 And this is not of works, so that no one may glory. 10 For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works which God has prepared and in which we should walk.
Matthew 11:28-30 28 Come to me, all you who labor and have been burdened, and I will refresh you. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am meek and humble of heart; and you shall find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is sweet and my burden is light."
take those two passages together and you can see the source for my statement, the one you partly agree with and partly reject. The part that you reject is taken from the words of Jesus Christ.

Mathew 11 isn't about salvation. It doesn't apply.
Focus on Ephesians 2:8-10 and note that it's all about God's work. The passage makes my point, yet you fail to see it. I wish you could see the simplicity of God's grace apart from any human addition, MC.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Mathew 11 isn't about salvation. It doesn't apply.
Focus on Ephesians 2:8-10 and note that it's all about God's work. The passage makes my point, yet you fail to see it. I wish you could see the simplicity of God's grace apart from any human addition, MC.

That little editor's pencil that your posts keep applying to the holy scriptures isn't going to make your claims true. It just makes a wasteland out of the bible used for your posts. The passage is about salvation despite your post's claim to the contrary.

Matthew 11:25 On that occasion, Jesus said, “Father, Lord of heaven and earth, I praise you; because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to simple people. 26 Yes, Father, this was your gracious will. 27 Everything has been entrusted to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father; and no one knows the Father except the Son, and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. 28 Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble of heart; and you will find rest. 30 For my yoke is easy; and my burden is light.” see also (Luke 10:21)

Luke 10:21 At that time, Jesus was filled with the joy of the Holy Spirit, and said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, for you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and made them known to little ones. 22 Yes, Father, such has been your gracious will. I have been given all things by my Father, so that no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son, and he to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.” 23 Then Jesus turned to his disciples and said to them privately, “Fortunate are you to see what you see, 24 for I tell you, that many prophets and kings would have liked to see what you see, but did not see it; and to hear what you hear, but did not hear it.”

 

[MennoSota]

That little editor's pencil that your posts keep applying to the holy scriptures isn't going to make your claims true. It just makes a wasteland out of the bible used for your posts. The passage is about salvation despite your post's claim to the contrary.

Matthew 11:25 On that occasion, Jesus said, “Father, Lord of heaven and earth, I praise you; because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to simple people. 26 Yes, Father, this was your gracious will. 27 Everything has been entrusted to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father; and no one knows the Father except the Son, and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. 28 Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble of heart; and you will find rest. 30 For my yoke is easy; and my burden is light.” see also (Luke 10:21)

Luke 10:21 At that time, Jesus was filled with the joy of the Holy Spirit, and said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, for you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and made them known to little ones. 22 Yes, Father, such has been your gracious will. I have been given all things by my Father, so that no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son, and he to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.” 23 Then Jesus turned to his disciples and said to them privately, “Fortunate are you to see what you see, 24 for I tell you, that many prophets and kings would have liked to see what you see, but did not see it; and to hear what you hear, but did not hear it.”

In either of those two passages is Jesus referring to eternal salvation? Second, in either of those two passages is anyone except God doing the work?
MC, you contradict yourself using grace and works as though they are interchangeable when they are not. You cannot have grace if works are the means by which a person saves themselves.
Either God does all the work and truly saves or man does the work and thus saves himself.
You rightly spoke of God doing the work, but in the last phrase you destroy God's work to make it man's work.
Why can't you accept your entire reliance upon God and God alone?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Matthew 11:25 On that occasion, Jesus said, “Father, Lord of heaven and earth, I praise you; because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to simple people. 26 Yes, Father, this was your gracious will. 27 Everything has been entrusted to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father; and no one knows the Father except the Son, and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. 28 Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble of heart; and you will find rest. 30 For my yoke is easy; and my burden is light.” see also (Luke 10:21)

Luke 10:21 At that time, Jesus was filled with the joy of the Holy Spirit, and said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, for you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and made them known to little ones. 22 Yes, Father, such has been your gracious will. I have been given all things by my Father, so that no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son, and he to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.” 23 Then Jesus turned to his disciples and said to them privately, “Fortunate are you to see what you see, 24 for I tell you, that many prophets and kings would have liked to see what you see, but did not see it; and to hear what you hear, but did not hear it.”

 

[Arsenios]

Now what exactly did Adam and Abram believe because making it out as if its the believing that is the saving instead of the promise of God that saves is the wrong path. Faith comes from God in that he wants us to trust in his promise and its not the trusting but the promise that gives the salvation and that is the Savior which was proclaimed starting from Genesis until judgment day.

It is not Faith Who Saves, nor Works Who Save, but God Who Saves us IF we turn from evil unto God [repentance] inasmuch as we have strength to do so... Which is one reason why we beseech God for strength and faith...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

We got from Abram to Adam by means on one of those mysteries so common in chatting on a forum. Things appear as if by magic and other things disappear. The truth however is not like magic. The truth is that Christians are saved by grace. It is not something that they earn. Nor is it something that they do for themselves. It is a grace from God given in Jesus Christ to everyone who comes to the Lord for healing of their souls.

So are we saved by Grace or by God?

The Orthodox answer is YES...

Salvation is God's Gift of Himself to fallen man...

eg The Grace of God IS God, but not God in Essence...

But is instead God in His ENERGIAS...

Arsenios