Salvation

[MennoSota]

So you had BETTER be longsuffering!
Because:
IF YOU DON'T do so...
You will NOT receive it!

Words mean what they say, Fr'er Menno...

Arsenios

So salvation depends on the human being according to Arsenios. Got it.
"Will" doesn't mean "will", it means perhaps...if you do all the prescribed things necessary. Got it.

 

[Arsenios]

So salvation depends on the human being according to Arsenios. Got it.
"Will" doesn't mean "will", it means perhaps...if you do all the prescribed things necessary. Got it.

Yes, it says you WILL, but only IF...

It is a paradox -

You are totally determinative of your own Salvation...
AND...
You have no Power to Give the Gift of Salvation to yourself...

The Good News in this "pair o' doc's" is that God is Faithful...

He hath established His Salvation in the Midst of the Earth!

Why do you always argue the Gospel from the pastoral epistles...?
And never from the Gospels?

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

We will receive it. "Will"
Do you think an impatient hope makes it so they won't receive it?

Brother MennoSota, saint Paul was among the "we" because he is a saint and he knew it because the Lord told him so in direct revelation to saint Paul. That is something that chaps living today cannot usually claim honestly. I have heard a lot of people claim to be among the elect and to be saints but a look at their way of life and their conversation leaves a lot of room for doubt about their claim.

 

[Arsenios]

Do you think an impatient hope makes it so they won't receive it?

Yes...

And if they have already received it, impatience with God will squander it...

Be impatient with your SELF, dear Menno...

Not with God...

And not with your neighbor...

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Yes, it says you WILL, but only IF...

It is a paradox -

You are totally determinative of your own Salvation...
AND...
You have no Power to Give the Gift of Salvation to yourself...

The Good News in this "pair o' doc's" is that God is Faithful...

He hath established His Salvation in the Midst of the Earth!

Why do you always argue the Gospel from the pastoral epistles...?
And never from the Gospels?

Arsenios

There is no "but only if" in the passage. There is a "patient hope." There is no "but only if." That's your addition from outside of scripture.
We have pointed out multiple passages in the gospels where Jesus tells us that the Father chooses and not one of those whom the Father chose will be left behind. Why do you ignore the gospels?

 

[MennoSota]

Brother MennoSota, saint Paul was among the "we" because he is a saint and he knew it because the Lord told him so in direct revelation to saint Paul. That is something that chaps living today cannot usually claim honestly. I have heard a lot of people claim to be among the elect and to be saints but a look at their way of life and their conversation leaves a lot of room for doubt about their claim.

This is pure RC crap you're spewing. Paul and every person chosen by God is a saint. God chooses every person, but he gives us different roles in the body. Every part of the body is equally important.
You make up a statement to support your unsupportable claim.

 

[MennoSota]

Yes...

And if they have already received it, impatience with God will squander it...

Be impatient with your SELF, dear Menno...

Not with God...

Arsenios

You preach a gospel that is not in the Bible, Arsenios.

 

[MoreCoffee]

This is pure RC crap you're spewing. Paul and every person chosen by God is a saint. God chooses every person, but he gives us different roles in the body. Every part of the body is equally important.
You make up a statement to support your unsupportable claim.

The relevant question for this thread is who does God choose and can a person's claim to be among the elect be relied upon simply because they make the claim without any additional evidence to support it. But I can see from your post that answering that question is not on the agenda for your posts right now. Perhaps later?

 

[Arsenios]

There is no "but only if" in the passage. There is a "patient hope." There is no "but only if." That's your addition from outside of scripture.

Here is the Scripture's words as reported on this thread:

"...we will receive it through patient hope..."

I inferred from this that we will NOT receive it OUTSIDE of patient Hope...

You like to argue that that this "patient Hope" is guaranteed to us by God...

I deny that it is guaranteed by God, but is guaranteed by our repentance in God...

We simply disagree...

That's all...

And you have proven yourself right to your own logical satisfaction...

Me too...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

The relevant question for this thread is who does God choose and can a person's claim to be among the elect be relied upon simply because they make the claim without any additional evidence to support it. But I can see from your post that answering that question is not on the agenda for your posts right now. Perhaps later?

My Brother!

My face is on the dirt at your feet...

In muddied-by-tears admiration...

For your wanton optimism before God!

Jes' Sayin'...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

This is pure RC crap you're spewing.

My dear brother, you seem to have strayed beyond the bounds of propriety here...

Get a rope around it, OK?

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

The relevant question for this thread is who does God choose and can a person's claim to be among the elect be relied upon simply because they make the claim without any additional evidence to support it. But I can see from your post that answering that question is not on the agenda for your posts right now. Perhaps later?

How is it that Paul and Peter could call the recipients of their letters, "chosen" and "elect? How is it that Paul could be confident but other brothers and sisters shouldn't have that same confidence?
Like Paul, our confidence is in Christ so that we can say "I have been crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live. Yet, not I, it is Christ who lives within me. And the life I live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me."
That's our confidence. If our confidence is misplaced, then we have no hope and are most to be pitied.

 

[MoreCoffee]

How is it that Paul and Peter could call the recipients of their letters, "chosen" and "elect? How is it that Paul could be confident but other brothers and sisters shouldn't have that same confidence?
Like Paul, our confidence is in Christ so that we can say "I have been crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live. Yet, not I, it is Christ who lives within me. And the life I live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me."
That's our confidence. If our confidence is misplaced, then we have no hope and are most to be pitied.

Saints Peter and Paul were prophets and apostles writing under inspiration so they received direct revelation from God but a chap living today cannot honestly claim to be a prophet and an apostle nor to write under inspiration so what they knew because God revealed it to them a chap today cannot honestly claim to know, a chap today hopes as saint Paul explained in the passage you saw in one of my posts a little while ago. But you are welcome to answer the question I asked
who does God choose and can a person's claim to be among the elect be relied upon simply because they make the claim without any additional evidence to support it?

 

[MennoSota]

Let's look at Romans 8. Notice in verse 24 that Paul uses the past tense "were saved." That is confidence in God's salvation.
Notice in verse 29 and 30 that those who "were" saved are foreknown and predestined.
Conclusion: Salvation is all about God's work.

23*And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
24*For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees?
25*But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

*28*And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
29*For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
30*And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

 

[MennoSota]

My dear brother, you seem to have strayed beyond the bounds of propriety here...

Get a rope around it, OK?

Arsenios

The RC is wrong. It's that simple. MC is presenting a denominational falsehood.

 

[MennoSota]

Saints Peter and Paul were prophets and apostles writing under inspiration so they received direct revelation from God but a chap living today cannot honestly claim to be a prophet and an apostle nor to write under inspiration so what they knew because God revealed it to them a chap today cannot honestly claim to know, a chap today hopes as saint Paul explained in the passage you saw in one of my posts a little while ago. But you are welcome to answer the question I asked
who does God choose and can a person's claim to be among the elect be relied upon simply because they make the claim without any additional evidence to support it?

God chooses whom He wills and those who are chosen can know this by the faith, which God has gifted to them.
I'm surprised you are confused by this.

 

[MoreCoffee]

God chooses whom He wills and those who are chosen can know this by the faith, which God has gifted to them.
I'm surprised you are confused by this.

Brother MennoSota, God know everything so it is true that God knows who is elect and who is not. That doesn't answer the question though does it. All the faithful through all the ages agree that God knows everything. The question is who does God choose and can a person's claim to be among the elect be relied upon simply because they make the claim without any additional evidence to support it? Saying that having faith is proof enough is not adequate, saint James pointed out that the demons have faith (belief) and quake because their faith reveals that their doom is sure. They know that they are doomed to separation from God because they disobey him. So having faith is not sufficient proof that a man is among the elect.

 

[MennoSota]

Brother MennoSota, God know everything so it is true that God knows who is elect and who is not. That doesn't answer the question though does it. All the faithful through all the ages agree that God knows everything. The question is who does God choose and can a person's claim to be among the elect be relied upon simply because they make the claim without any additional evidence to support it? Saying that having faith is proof enough is not adequate, saint James pointed out that the demons have faith (belief) and quake because their faith reveals that their doom is sure. They know that they are doomed to separation from God because they disobey him. So having faith is not sufficient proof that a man is among the elect.

Faith is a gift from God. Only the elect can have faith. We can be assured of our position with God. I'm sorry if you cannot have this assurance.

 

[Lamb]

The RC is wrong. It's that simple. MC is presenting a denominational falsehood.

There are people who take offense to the word "crap" because outside of the US it is a harsher word. So, maybe consider that as you create your posts.

Our flaming rule here allows for flaming of beliefs/religion but not the person/character/intellect. Menno's post was not a rule violation since he wasn't flaming MC personally, but instead the belief system. Using the word "crap" though to some brings great offense, just an FYI.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Faith is a gift from God. Only the elect can have faith. We can be assured of our position with God. I'm sorry if you cannot have this assurance.

Salvation is a grace from God, a gift given to all who are in Christ. Faith is an exercise of mind and will as well as heart and body. A person can choose to believe or not to believe what God says to him. Assurance of salvation is not a promise given by God to a chap living today. That's the facts.