Salvation

[Josiah]

So Josiah, are you ever going to address the matter of God Justifying those He has Called?

I have. MANY times. HE does it. See almost every one of the hundreds of posts I have on the topic, lastly # 437 in this thread.


I'll repeat for you:

Answer this: WHO is the Savior?

It's an important question (THE most important question) and Christianity stands or falls on the answer...


IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly wrapped up in Jesus. It's entirely HIS work. It's entirely HIS accomplishment. It's entirely HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness. Not you. Not yours. You may have some other role in some other matter, but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you. Salvation is found in no other name but Jesus (exclusively).

IF you answer "Me" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOU save you. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you. Salvation is found in the one each sees in the mirror.

IF you answer, "No one, there is no Savior" then there is no salvation


Which is it? Try answering that. The devil will TRY to make this as complex and difficult and messy as he can..... he'll promote options 2 and 3 as much as he can... but actually, it's not rocket science.

If you give the Christian answer, a LOT of Christianity falls into place. IF you realize that Jesus SAVES us - FOR good works/love (not just heaven), then Justification and Sanctification take their proper role and are not confused in the way the devil so passionately desires.



Many TRY with all their brains to make this ever-so-complicated.... they may go to incredible lengths to TRY to answer with "no" or "no one" without SEEMING that's their answer. But it's not hard.

I lament those who identify themselves as "Christians" but are horrified by the "Jesus" answer, going on and on to undermine it, perhaps (at best) saying 'Yeah - BUT....." (with the "but" essentially negating the "yeah"). There should be NO belief more clear, more direct, more simple than this one.


.

.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I have. MANY times. HE does it. See almost every one of the hundreds of posts I have on the topic, lastly # 437 in this thread.
I'll repeat for you:

I have. MANY times. HE does it. See almost every one of the hundreds of posts I have on the topic, lastly # 437 in this thread.
I'll repeat for you:

Truly a penchant for self quotation.

:smirk:

 

[Arsenios]

I have. MANY times. HE does it. See almost every one of the hundreds of posts I have on the topic, lastly # 437 in this thread.


I'll repeat for you:






.

There is nothing in this that addresses the issue of sequentiality...
Where God alone Justifies PRIOR to Him Glorifying but AFTER Him Calling...
And the differences of those three actions...
And their relational interconnectedness...
All in the context of the Salvation of fallen man...

If you think your self-quoted cut and paste does address these issues, would you please explain how?

I mean, anyone can make any assertion and cut and paste the whole Bible and call it proof...

And anyone can refute any assertion and cut and paste the Bible as proof...

Conversations are a good thing sometimes...

Thank-you...

I won't bother you again with this...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

An elder was asked why the Orthodox are so committed to doing a lot of works in the course of their lives, beginning with denial of self, proceeding to taking up one's cross after Baptism into Christ, and culminating in the Glorification of them by God at the end of this successful progression...

The questioner went on saying: "The Gift of Salvation by Grace through Faith is of God... It is a Divine Gift... So why all these works? - Cannot God save us without us doing all these works?"

The elder said nothing for awhile...

Perhaps he was remembering Scriptures which tell us we are to love God with ALL our strength... And that to love God is to keep all His Commandments... That keeping Commandments is a work all its own... Who knows what he thought?

Then he replied: "God certainly CAN give Salvation to man apart from works... But He didn't... We will be judged at the end according to what we DO in our lives... Faithfulness is the doing of the Faith Christ gave us..."

I would add that the reason Paul mentioned "Not of works, lest any should boast..." is because there ARE so very many and exhausting works that the faithful do so as to be obedient to the Commandments of Christ...

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

An elder was asked why the Orthodox are so committed to doing a lot of works in the course of their lives, beginning with denial of self, proceeding to taking up one's cross after Baptism into Christ, and culminating in the Glorification of them by God at the end of this successful progression...

The questioner went on saying: "The Gift of Salvation by Grace through Faith is of God... It is a Divine Gift... So why all these works? - Cannot God save us without us doing all these works?"

The elder said nothing for awhile...

Perhaps he was remembering Scriptures which tell us we are to love God with ALL our strength... And that to love God is to keep all His Commandments... That keeping Commandments is a work all its own... Who knows what he thought?

Then he replied: "God certainly CAN give Salvation to man apart from works... But He didn't... We will be judged at the end according to what we DO in our lives... Faithfulness is the doing of the Faith Christ gave us..."

The elder's answer was wise.

I would add that the reason Paul mentioned "Not of works, lest any should boast..." is because there ARE so very many and exhausting works that the faithful do so as to be obedient to the Commandments of Christ...

Arsenios

 

[Josiah]

Then he replied: "God certainly CAN give Salvation to man apart from works... But He didn't...

WHOSE work? Self or Christ's?


A question I've asked you repeatedly.....

WHO is the Savior?

It's an important question (THE most important question) and Christianity stands or falls on the answer...


IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly wrapped up in Jesus. It's entirely HIS work. It's entirely HIS accomplishment. It's entirely HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness. Not you. Not yours. You may have some other role in some other matter, but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you. Salvation is found in no other name but Jesus (exclusively).

IF you answer "Me" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOU save you. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you. Salvation is found in the one each sees in the mirror.

IF you answer, "No one, there is no Savior" then there is no salvation


Which is it? Try answering that. The devil will TRY to make this as complex and difficult and messy as he can..... he'll promote options 2 and 3 as much as he can... but actually, it's not rocket science.

If you give the Christian answer, a LOT of Christianity falls into place. IF you realize that Jesus SAVES us - FOR good works/love (not just heaven), then Justification and Sanctification take their proper role and are not confused in the way the devil so passionately desires.


I lament those who identify themselves as "Christians" but are horrified by the "Jesus" answer, going on and on to undermine it, perhaps (at best) saying 'Yeah - BUT....." (with the "but" essentially negating the "yeah"). There should be NO belief more clear, more direct, more simple than this one.



.

 

[Albion]

Truly a penchant for self quotation.

:smirk:

Are you intending to make yourself look like the Grinch (Who) Stole Christmas?











.

 

[Arsenios]

WHOSE work? Self or Christ's?

A question I've asked you repeatedly.....

Sigh...

This is becoming tedious...

You do the works...

God does the Salvation...

"Of God the Gift..."

I lament those who identify themselves as "Christians" but are horrified by the "Jesus" answer, going on and on to undermine it, perhaps (at best) saying 'Yeah - BUT....." (with the "but" essentially negating the "yeah"). There should be NO belief more clear, more direct, more simple than this one.

You are repeatedly grinding a little toy axe...

Closing your eyes with cut and paste...

Adult conversation is a good thing...

Doing the same thing over and over expecting different results is the definition of something...

Some call it unfounded optimism!

I am more clinically inclined...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Are you intending to make yourself look like the Grinch (Who) Stole Christmas?

I stole a stoat for my stolen stole...

Alexander Grinchnikoff
Christmas Past

 

[Albion]

Sigh...

This is becoming tedious...

You do the works...

God does the Salvation...

That's not much of an answer, though. At best, it attributes saving merit to yourself, which is a concept that we call, in theology, works righteousness.

 

[Arsenios]

That's not much of an answer, though. At best, it attributes saving merit to yourself, which is a concept that we call, in theology, works righteousness.

NOTHING created even CAN MERIT the Un-Created GOD Who created creation...

No thing can merit God...

God does Justify human righteousness...

God does not Justify human evil-doing...

One CANNOT STEAL God from God...

THAT is WHY it is a GIFT, and not wages...

Arsenios

 

[Albion]

NOTHING created even CAN MERIT the Un-Created GOD Who created creation...

No thing can merit God...

Arsenios

So salvation is a gift and not dependent upon anything we do.

Are we in agreement, then, that this (below) which is from an earlier post of yours represents the opinion of someone else...but also that it is in error?

Then he replied: "God certainly CAN give Salvation to man apart from works... But He didn't... We will be judged at the end according to what we DO in our lives... Faithfulness is the doing of the Faith Christ gave us..."

.

 

[MoreCoffee]

So salvation is a gift and not dependent upon anything we do.

Are we in agreement, then, that this (below) which is from an earlier post of yours represents the opinion of someone else...but also that it is in error?

God decided to make salvation depend on what people do rather than on what is merely said or what people "believe without works".

Galatians 6: 7 Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow.
8 If you sow to your own flesh, you will reap corruption from the flesh; but if you sow to the Spirit, you will reap eternal life from the Spirit.
9 So let us not grow weary in doing what is right, for we will reap at harvest time, if we do not give up.
10 So then, whenever we have an opportunity, let us work for the good of all, and especially for those of the family of faith.


James 2:12 Talk and behave like people who are going to be judged by the law of freedom. 13 Whoever acts without mercy will be judged without mercy but mercy can afford to laugh at judgement. 14 How does it help, my brothers, when someone who has never done a single good act claims to have faith? Will that faith bring salvation? 15 If one of the brothers or one of the sisters is in need of clothes and has not enough food to live on, 16 and one of you says to them, 'I wish you well; keep yourself warm and eat plenty,' without giving them these bare necessities of life, then what good is that? 17 In the same way faith, if good deeds do not go with it, is quite dead.​

 

[Albion]

God's elect do, of course, perform Godly works and are rewarded for it (just not with salvation).

 

[MennoSota]

An elder was asked why the Orthodox are so committed to doing a lot of works in the course of their lives, beginning with denial of self, proceeding to taking up one's cross after Baptism into Christ, and culminating in the Glorification of them by God at the end of this successful progression...

The questioner went on saying: "The Gift of Salvation by Grace through Faith is of God... It is a Divine Gift... So why all these works? - Cannot God save us without us doing all these works?"

The elder said nothing for awhile...

Perhaps he was remembering Scriptures which tell us we are to love God with ALL our strength... And that to love God is to keep all His Commandments... That keeping Commandments is a work all its own... Who knows what he thought?

Then he replied: "God certainly CAN give Salvation to man apart from works... But He didn't... We will be judged at the end according to what we DO in our lives... Faithfulness is the doing of the Faith Christ gave us..."

I would add that the reason Paul mentioned "Not of works, lest any should boast..." is because there ARE so very many and exhausting works that the faithful do so as to be obedient to the Commandments of Christ...

Arsenios

You can never do enough, Arsenios. You WILL miss the mark and die in your trespasses and sins as you abandoned the grace of God for your own merits.

 

[MennoSota]

God decided to make salvation depend on what people do rather than on what is merely said or what people "believe without works".

Galatians 6: 7 Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow.
8 If you sow to your own flesh, you will reap corruption from the flesh; but if you sow to the Spirit, you will reap eternal life from the Spirit.
9 So let us not grow weary in doing what is right, for we will reap at harvest time, if we do not give up.
10 So then, whenever we have an opportunity, let us work for the good of all, and especially for those of the family of faith.


James 2:12 Talk and behave like people who are going to be judged by the law of freedom. 13 Whoever acts without mercy will be judged without mercy but mercy can afford to laugh at judgement. 14 How does it help, my brothers, when someone who has never done a single good act claims to have faith? Will that faith bring salvation? 15 If one of the brothers or one of the sisters is in need of clothes and has not enough food to live on, 16 and one of you says to them, 'I wish you well; keep yourself warm and eat plenty,' without giving them these bare necessities of life, then what good is that? 17 In the same way faith, if good deeds do not go with it, is quite dead.​

Your quotes have nothing to do with securing salvation. God does not need your wretched help to save you. He will accomplish it entirely on His own and thus give you NO cause for boasting.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Your quotes have nothing to do with securing salvation. God does not need your wretched help to save you. He will accomplish it entirely on His own and thus give you NO cause for boasting.

Play games with holy scripture and all that is achieved is one's own loss of truth and hope. The fact is that God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow. If you sow to your own flesh, you will reap corruption from the flesh; but if you sow to the Spirit, you will reap eternal life from the Spirit. Leave good and godly works out of the life one lives and learn the lesson that when someone who has never done a single good act claims to have faith? Will that faith bring salvation? the answer to the rhetorical question is "no". faith, if good deeds do not go with it, is quite dead.

 

[Albion]

Is there a point to that post?? The rest of us agree with James.

Only the Catholic Church, among the churches represented here, teaches that Faith is not necessary for salvation.

 

[MennoSota]

Play games with holy scripture and all that is achieved is one's own loss of truth and hope. The fact is that God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow. If you sow to your own flesh, you will reap corruption from the flesh; but if you sow to the Spirit, you will reap eternal life from the Spirit. Leave good and godly works out of the life one lives and learn the lesson that when someone who has never done a single good act claims to have faith? Will that faith bring salvation? the answer to the rhetorical question is "no". faith, if good deeds do not go with it, is quite dead.

Tell that to the unregenerate leaders of your church...

 

[MoreCoffee]

Tell that to the unregenerate leaders of your church...

I told it to you because your posts are the ones making false claims about salvation. The scripture says God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow. If you sow to your own flesh, you will reap corruption from the flesh; but if you sow to the Spirit, you will reap eternal life from the Spirit but you appear to teach otherwise.